If I want to play a mongrelman (2 HD, CR 1) up to 8 class levels, what effective level should the rest of the party be, according to the Monsters as PCs rules in the Bestiary?
It looks to me like my character would never catch up. Is that correct?
From the way I understand the rules the CR is the effective character level so you would be effectively level 9, so you are only 1 class level behind. If the idea is to get a level every 3 levels then you should have had gotten your extra level before they get their 8th character level, so you should all have the same number of class levels by level 8.
That's what I thought (after two or three rounds of thinking about it). Thanks Wraith!
From the way I understand the rules the CR is the effective character level so you would be effectively level 9, so you are only 1 class level behind. If the idea is to get a level every 3 levels then you should have had gotten your extra level before they get their 8th character level, so you should all have the same number of class levels by level 8.
It will not necessarily get extra class levels every 3 levels, they only gain those up to 1/2 of the monsters CR rounded down. So for a CR 1, that would be 0,5 rounded down, 0. The entry is phrased oddly tough. however it would be the RAI that a CR 1 monster would not get any extra levels.
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My understanding is that the ARG more or less replaced those rules, so what you would actually do is build a "Mongrelman" race using the Race Builder instead, capturing the two key abilities (Sound Mimicry and the natural armor). It would have at least +2 Con and at least -2 Cha, with the specific point distributions left up to you (perhaps +4 Con -2 Cha.) This would allow you to play one from first level.
My understanding is that the ARG more or less replaced those rules, so what you would actually do is build a "Mongrelman" race using the Race Builder instead, capturing the two key abilities (Sound Mimicry and the natural armor). It would have at least +2 Con and at least -2 Cha, with the specific point distributions left up to you (perhaps +4 Con -2 Cha.) This would allow you to play one from first level.
The ARG is not meant to be an official replacement to anything. It is simply an optional system. A GM could use it like you describe, but I do not believe for a moment that, that is the default assumption or intention for the game.
It will not necessarily get extra class levels every 3 levels, they only gain those up to 1/2 of the monsters CR rounded down. So for a CR 1, that would be 0,5 rounded down, 0. The entry is phrased oddly tough. however it would be the RAI that a CR 1 monster would not get any extra levels.
It actually says "repeat this process a number of times equal to half the monster's CR, rounded down" implying that it would always happen at least once, even when the CR rounds down to 0.
My understanding is that the ARG more or less replaced those rules, so what you would actually do is build a "Mongrelman" race using the Race Builder instead, capturing the two key abilities (Sound Mimicry and the natural armor). It would have at least +2 Con and at least -2 Cha, with the specific point distributions left up to you (perhaps +4 Con -2 Cha.) This would allow you to play one from first level.The ARG is not meant to be an official replacement to anything. It is simply an optional system. A GM could use it like you describe, but I do not believe for a moment that, that is the default assumption or intention for the game.
It will not necessarily get extra class levels every 3 levels, they only gain those up to 1/2 of the monsters CR rounded down. So for a CR 1, that would be 0,5 rounded down, 0. The entry is phrased oddly tough. however it would be the RAI that a CR 1 monster would not get any extra levels.It actually says "repeat this process a number of times equal to half the monster's CR, rounded down" implying that it would always happen at least once, even when the CR rounds down to 0.
Yes and that is why I said RAI, not RAW, As this would technically mean that you could play as a playable race as a monster, and simply gain one bonus level. which is clearly not the intent (as lvl 1 chars of pc's races are also counted as 1/2 CR monsters).
As you've said, nothing is overruled, it's an optional system.
One that also only recommends the extra levels, not explicitly giving them. Which was the main reason I took to the RAI interpretation, as the rules are pretty much based on GM judgment.
Yes and that is why I said RAI, not RAW, As this would technically mean that you could play as a playable race as a monster, and simply gain one bonus level. which is clearly not the intent (as lvl 1 chars of pc's races are also counted as 1/2 CR monsters).
That is a fair point, just don't discount lagging two levels behind on class abilities for the first half of your career. That's a big deal. Racial hit dice alone are almost always subpar in comparison to class abilities.
As you've said, nothing is overruled, it's an optional system. One that also only recommends the extra levels, not explicitly giving them. Which was the main reason I took to the RAI interpretation, as the rules are pretty much based on GM judgment.
Another good point. The rules are absolutely clear that it is ultimately up to the GM run it how he feels is right for his group (as he should).
Nevertheless, I feel that the developers intended for the GMs to start with the rules in the core Bestiary before having to resort to buying a whole new book for an alternate solution. :P
From the way I understand the rules the CR is the effective character level so you would be effectively level 9, so you are only 1 class level behind. If the idea is to get a level every 3 levels then you should have had gotten your extra level before they get their 8th character level, so you should all have the same number of class levels by level 8.It will not necessarily get extra class levels every 3 levels, they only gain those up to 1/2 of the monsters CR rounded down. So for a CR 1, that would be 0,5 rounded down, 0. The entry is phrased oddly tough. however it would be the RAI that a CR 1 monster would not get any extra levels.
I think a CR 1 monster if given a class level, starts at "level 2". Then it eventually gets the same number of actual class levels as the rest of the party.
Example: CR 1(drow noble for an example with 1 class level in a level 2 party. Eventually the drow gets the same number of class levels as the party since the CR will not hold up to an actual class level for long.
However I think this is better done by adjusting in play than by hard and fast rules. When a player starts to lag behind give him the extra class level to bring him more in line.
I never saw a table like that. It might be on d20pfsrd, but it would not be official.
My understanding is that the ARG more or less replaced those rules, so what you would actually do is build a "Mongrelman" race using the Race Builder instead, capturing the two key abilities (Sound Mimicry and the natural armor). It would have at least +2 Con and at least -2 Cha, with the specific point distributions left up to you (perhaps +4 Con -2 Cha.) This would allow you to play one from first level.The ARG is not meant to be an official replacement to anything. It is simply an optional system. A GM could use it like you describe, but I do not believe for a moment that, that is the default assumption or intention for the game.
For PCs? It's absolutely the default assumption. Prior to the ARG, the official ruling for playing anything beyond the core 7 races was "if it doesn't have any racial HD, ask your GM real nicely and they might say yes."
There's a system for establishing the CR of a monster with class levels, but there isn't really a conversion rate between CR and APL, because it just plain doesn't transfer over. Then there's the rough guide you linked on ow to ad hoc it.
If you really want to go by it though, the formula is first- to essentially assign a number of levels equal to the monster's CR (in this case, 1) to the "I am a monster" class.
Then, take the monster's CR, divide by 2, round down. This is how many "catch-up levels" you eventually gain. In this case, CR1, divided by 2 equals 1/2, rounding down to 0.
So, you would be a "Mongrel Man 1/Barbarian 8" for instance at the point where the rest of the party is something like "Bard 9" and would never catch up.
If you were going with a CR2 monster, you would be a "Monster 2" when the rest of the party was "Bard 2" (which, really, would have to be the level you started at), and when the party hits 4500 XP, you would get your first (and only) catch-up level, putting you at "Monster 1/Barbarian 1," still leveling up with everyone else when you hit the XP for level 3, but always having that 1 class level tied up as a monster.
Monsters of odd CR, particularly if it's 1, get a pretty raw deal here. The ARG race building system is a much better deal.
It is however still a much better deal than 3.5's ECL system, where you'd be plugging 2 levels into "being a mongrelman" instead of just the one (but worse than the crazy optional rule to spend 2 levels' worth of experience buying them off, then getting to catch up via the weird rubber-bandy math.
I think a CR 1 monster if given a class level, starts at "level 2". Then it eventually gets the same number of actual class levels as the rest of the party.
A monster played as a PC does not necessarily have class levels, Racial HD are substituted. Also a monsters CR don't change, any class levels added after it has becomes a PC do not change the monsters CR, so it would not eventually gain the same amount of levels, it never can.
Also, Drow nobles advance by class level alone. They are character races, not monsters, just very powerful ones and follow those rules instead.
I think a CR 1 monster if given a class level, starts at "level 2". Then it eventually gets the same number of actual class levels as the rest of the party.A monster played as a PC does not necessarily have class levels, Racial HD are substituted. Also a monsters CR don't change, any class levels added after it has becomes a PC do not change the monsters CR, so it would not eventually gain the same amount of levels, it never can.
Also, Drow nobles advance by class level alone. They are character races, not monsters, just very powerful ones and follow those rules instead.
I never said the CR changed. I was saying the CR counts as a level for the purpose of determining the PC's starting level. I mentioned the class levels because the rules say to advance the PC monster by class levels. You misread what I was said, and assumed I did not understand the rules.
I never said the CR changed. I was saying the CR counts as a level for the purpose of determining the PC's starting level. I mentioned the class levels because the rules say to advance the PC monster by class levels. You misread what I was said, and assumed I did not understand the rules.
I think a CR 1 monster if given a class level, starts at "level 2". Then it eventually gets the same number of actual class levels as the rest of the party.A monster played as a PC does not necessarily have class levels, Racial HD are substituted. Also a monsters CR don't change, any class levels added after it has becomes a PC do not change the monsters CR, so it would not eventually gain the same amount of levels, it never can.
Also, Drow nobles advance by class level alone. They are character races, not monsters, just very powerful ones and follow those rules instead.
you clearly did missunderstand, as you said that it started at lvl 2, and that it would eventually get the same amount of levels. If it does not start at "level 2" it would not qualify to get the eventual requirement to get the extra class level. And there is nothing saying that monsters start with 1 class level. It's not an assumption, regardless of where you want to putt the error, it contains at least one.
For PCs? It's absolutely the default assumption.My understanding is that the ARG more or less replaced those rules, so what you would actually do is build a "Mongrelman" race using the Race Builder instead, capturing the two key abilities (Sound Mimicry and the natural armor). It would have at least +2 Con and at least -2 Cha, with the specific point distributions left up to you (perhaps +4 Con -2 Cha.) This would allow you to play one from first level.The ARG is not meant to be an official replacement to anything. It is simply an optional system. A GM could use it like you describe, but I do not believe for a moment that, that is the default assumption or intention for the game.
Respectfully, I disagree, Googleshng.
Is it particularly important that you start with the racial hit dice? If not why not just offer to drop them? At that point the mongrelman (IMO) is in line with the core races. I'm not seeing any crazy abilities or stats that set off my GM warning bells.
Is it particularly important that you start with the racial hit dice? If not why not just offer to drop them? At that point the mongrelman (IMO) is in line with the core races. I'm not seeing any crazy abilities or stats that set off my GM warning bells.
Seems fair enough, most GM's I know would still ask you to run it trough the race builder, shouldn't take much adjustment if you're not using racial die.