Why aren't you fixing the fighter?

[Xentik]

Ssalarn wrote:

That's really the crux of the issue. The game has anime casters (creating demiplanes, bending reality, etc.), running alongside Lord of the Rings martials. We've got Gimli and Bilbo and we expect them to keep up with Naruto and Sasuke. It works out all right at the lowest levels, but the painful disparity starts becoming really obvious when Gimli is still trotting around trying to hit things with his axe and Sasuke is instantaneously transporting himself into position and mind-locking them with his Sharingan, or Bilbo is still crawling through the leaves with his elvish cloak hoping the orcs don't see him while Naruto transforms into an unstoppable beast with enough power to level cities.

I tend to agree with this view of fighters. Sure they've got damage at high level, but that's all they've got, and magic-users can have that and earth-shattering power. Any items or such that they use for flexibility are similarly usable by any other class. They also really lack any kind of differentiation that isn't "What kind of beat-stick am I?" Most other classes have ways to really differentiate themselves within class that don't amount to what bonus feats you've taken. Just adding 2 extra skills per level and eliminating prerequisites on feats is a pretty bland means of solving the problems with the class.

The kit of fighters seems to revolve around Training. They already get Armor and Weapon Training, and they're able to retrain feats. Why not extend that idea to improve their available skills and saves and utility? Fighters would be able to start with Weapon/Armor Training and pick one of the following at 1 and again every few levels. Note: I make no claims as to the balance of what follows.

Mental Training (Ex): Fluffy stuff. +2 Will saves, and the bonus increases by one every 6 levels.

Agility Training (Ex): Fluffy stuff. +2 Reflex saves, and the bonus increases by one every 6 levels.

Maneuver Training (Ex): You excel at unorthodox combat techniques and catching your foes off-guard. You gain combat expertise and may ignore the int prerequisites on any combat maneuver feats you take. Choose a combat maneuver, you gain a bonus equal to half your class level to that kind of maneuver. You may choose another maneuver to receive this bonus to for every four levels you possess.

Physical Training (Ex): Along with your combat training you have worked to keep yourself in peak physical condition. You receive a bonus equal to your level in climb, swim and acrobatics (jumping only), and you can ignore the ACP for these skills from any armor that doesn't slow you down.

Professional Training (Ex): Your professional background has taught you a variety of useful skills. Choose one of the following professions. You may use that profession to make skill checks in place of its associated skills. Additionally, you receive a bonus to that profession skill equal to 1/2 your class level.

Profession(Mercenary) Appraise, Bluff, Intimidate
Profession(Horseman) Handle Animal, Intimidate, Ride
Profession(Bodyguard) Intimidate, Perception, Sense Motive
Profession(Scout) Perception, Stealth, Survival
Profession(Field Medic) Heal, Use Magic Device, Diplomacy
and so on...

Someone better than I could probably put this together into a complete, balanced system. A lot of fighter archetype stuff could probably be boiled down into types of training that could be substituted in as well(especially since almost all fighter archetypes sacrifice Armor or Weapon Training in some fashion).

[Flawed]

Secret Wizard wrote:

Flawed wrote:

1. You don't even know what my standards are and being functional is not the same as being optimized. The problem is optimizers have grown comfortable in their interpretation that not being optimized is not functional.

How can 12-14 dex be considered good when you can get +3 out of a base breastplate or +7 out of Mithril full plate at level 15.

2. So now you're talking about things that make something attractive and why it becomes popular. This is the point and contrary to what you previously posted.

It's not up to me to post builds. Those of you claiming the fighter sucks are the ones that need the practice.

You do have the burden of proof. It's part of arguing. This is your argument's rhetorical flaw #1.

I know what your standards are because you are making them explicit, then switching goal posts. This makes for rhetorical flaw #2.

I was explicitly not talking about what makes something attractive or popular, I was talking about balance. You mentioned popularity yourself. That's a DOUBLE RHETORICAL FLAW COMBO X2, it crits. Your number of rhetorical flaws increases to #4.

Also, you never posted or provided evidenced of opti-builds not putting any points in Dexterity. That cements the fact you are going for a strawman.

Anyway, whenever you are interested about talking about class balance, come back to this thread. Until then, I don't think there's any point of you spending time here as you are not providing meaningful, cohesive, constructive arguments.

The burden of proof lies with those contesting the system not those that agree with it. The contestation began with the initial thread post and was followed up by the same faces that always like to rant on this. This doesn't make any of you right for having an agreeable opinion. You represent maybe a single percent of the entire pathfinder player base. Not a quantifiable number to dedicate any change.

You then linked a biased thread where Rynjin made comparison using the same stats, items, feats in some attempt to draw a conclusion when every class requires different things. Not a foundation to build an argument on.

I've yet to move any goal posts. And I've yet to state my standards.

You entirely commented on something in regards to popularity thus implicating your statement in the same vein of argument. Choosing to now dissociate your argument from popularity is what moving goal posts is all about.

Time to go back to your books of debate and rhetoric and do some more studying instead of trying to be an internet thug.

Peace out home slice.

[Chris Lambertz]

Chris Lambertz wrote:

Removed a few more back and forth posts. We understand that people's viewpoints are very strong, but please remember you're talking to an actual person and that insults really contribute nothing to the conversation. If it continues to be a problem, we'll be locking up this thread.

And locking.