Hi all. Running home game and have a new player to Pathfinder. Im keeping them to core as they are new and they want to build a sorcerer. Looking for advice as I have not built one in a very long time and not sure what a good focus for a new player would be. BTW the Campaign is Second Darkness.
Here's a guide, it covers more than core, but should still be helpful:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/13MRfgZWlAakfd06JnboqbK6xNdb2Ht63dYqVg2k pGiI/edit?pli=1
Defaulting to Arcane Bloodline is not a bad idea. Make sure he diversifies his spell list (ie, doesn't take multiple blasts every level.)
Flagged for advice forum.
Btw: How many points?
TarnisLockhart wrote: 20 pt buy Mininmum 18 Cha, 14 Con, especially with a d6. Dex would be third priority. Int is not dumpable and perhaps could go to a 12 or even 14. Str is your dump stat while wisdom can be moderately dumped.
Since your a dedicated caster I'd go with--
Str 7
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 8
Cha 20
or
Str 8
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 18
Bloodline can be anything but I would look at a guide for this.
Hope this is helpful.
Take Care,
Kerney
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When you pick spells for a Sorcerer (especially core) you want to pick spells that remain useful at higher levels. A first level sorcerer might find sleep to be super-useful, but by 6th level it's become entirely useless.
another trick is to avoid spells that are circumstantial. Spells like Breathe Water for example just aren't going to come up enough and would be better off on a scroll.
The final trick is to avoid redundancy. A Sorcerer spell list should never have Levitate, Fly and Overland Flight. You've wasted 2 spell selections!
Here are some spell selections I think are pretty good:
1: Silent image, grease, shield, Enlarge person
2: Glitterdust, Flaming sphere, Hideous laughter
3: Fly, Haste, Slow (BTW haste and slow are not redundant, they are complimentary!)
4: Dimension door, Fear, Confusion
5: Wall of stone, Feeblemind, Telekinesis
6: Form of the dragon, circle of death
Just some examples....
The Sorcerer, for role play reasons(I like high cha characters) happens to be one of my favorite caster classes, so I thought I'd weigh in with some advice for you. The key to making a good sorcerer is to remember one simple fact...you are not a wizard. What do I mean? Well, a wizard is, at their core, a generalist. Sure, they can specialize, but wizards have access to their entire spell list if they work for it. Sorcerers, however, do not. While they share a spell list with wizards, they can only ever know a few spells. While there are several ways to "cheat the system" and match the versatility of a wizard, which I'll get to later, most of my advice will be built on the assumption that your not looking for that kind of cheese and want to play a sorcerer as they are meant to be played. Thus, this means that unlike a wizard who can take crazy oddball utility spells and such, you are a true specialist. You have lots of raw power, and can do a small number of things VERY well...and your build should reflect this. You should not try to do everything, instead, pick one thing you really want to excel at and build towards that "specialty."
Your specality as a sorcerer is largely determined by your choice of bloodline. In fact, other then your spells known, your bloodline is the most important decision you will ever make. As a sorcerer, I find it is best to choose what you want to specalize in as a spellcaster before you even pick a bloodline, and then choose one that matches accordingly, as each bloodline lends itself to a different kind of character and, in many cases, an entirely different build from another sorcerer. Some bloodlines will demand more focused, specalized builds, while others will allow you to build your character in a somewhat more wizard-esc fashion.
No matter what, though, once you decide what you want to do with your character, bloodline choice becomes easier. Sorcerers can specalize in literally anything you want, though there are some things that they do paticularly well when compaired to wizards. Enchantment magics, for example, are something the sorcerer is actually better at then a wizard ever can be, provided you choose the right race. A Kitsune sorcerer with the Fey Bloodline is literally the best enchanter in the game, able to obtain massive DCs no other class can match on Enchantment(Compulsion) spells, which are basicly all the good ones. The Undead Bloodline is also one of the strongest necromancer options in the game, as it is able to dominate intelligent undead and thus is the absolute best class for abusing the create undead line. I will give you one warning, though. Contrary to popular belief, sorcerers are not better blasters then wizards. Wizards, actually, make better blasters in the long run(See the Blockbuster wizard guide for why), so don't think that "every sorc is a blaster" as that mentality is largely a holdover from 3.5e when sorcs really where the best blasters. Blaster Sorcs are still very powerful, mind you, so if thats your thing feel free to try it, but don't think that your pigeon-holed into being a blaster as a sorc...that's largely a mentality from 3.5e and in PF should be discarded.
Anyway...now I am just rambling. So, before I can go on, I want to know, what kind of spellcaster do you want? Do you want a battlefield controller/"god wizard" type who can stand in for a wizard? Do you want a debuffer who lays down curses and afflictions? Do you want a melee-focused gish? A character focused around enhancing the party's effectiveness/buffing as appose to going to town on the enemies? Or maybe a caster who makes extensive use of pets and/or summon creatures?
A sorcerer can be any of these things(and more), but not all of them at the same time. So if you could give me an idea of what kind of spellcaster you want to make/what kind of specialty your interested in then I could give you some more tips and advice.
Treantmonk wrote: When you pick spells for a Sorcerer (especially core) you want to pick spells that remain useful at higher levels. A first level sorcerer might find sleep to be super-useful, but by 6th level it's become entirely useless.
You get a free retrain of ONE of your first level spells at 4th level, so feel free to take a spell that's good for the first three and that you'd want to get rid of later, such as Sleep.
LazarX wrote: Treantmonk wrote: When you pick spells for a Sorcerer (especially core) you want to pick spells that remain useful at higher levels. A first level sorcerer might find sleep to be super-useful, but by 6th level it's become entirely useless.
You get a free retrain of ONE of your first level spells at 4th level, so feel free to take a spell that's good for the first three and that you'd want to get rid of later, such as Sleep. That's true, but you can only trade 1 spell every 2 levels, so I think my advise is still good.
Treantmonk wrote: LazarX wrote: Treantmonk wrote: When you pick spells for a Sorcerer (especially core) you want to pick spells that remain useful at higher levels. A first level sorcerer might find sleep to be super-useful, but by 6th level it's become entirely useless.
You get a free retrain of ONE of your first level spells at 4th level, so feel free to take a spell that's good for the first three and that you'd want to get rid of later, such as Sleep. That's true, but you can only trade 1 spell every 2 levels, so I think my advise is still good. Retraining in UC is also helpful.
I second Takhisis' advice that the choice of role should choose the bloodline and to specialize in that area. However - make sure to have general utility spells in addition to your specialty that won't suffer from having no DC boosts. Fly, haste, and glitterdust are all extraordinarily useful to name a few.
My 2 cents: don't go arcane bloodline unless the campaign is going to high level. It is very bad at low levels and worse than others at mid. The fey bloodline is a lot of fun for control/compulsion (and entangle as a bonus spell is pure gold). Draconic bloodline makes for a nice blaster, although blasters should have quite few damage spells.
Yeah...there are a few other bloodlines that are great, too. If your into Necromancy, the Undead Bloodline is actually pretty darn good for it's bloodline arcana. The Daemon Bloodline is also quite powerful and makes a great debuffer while also having one of the most ridiculous 1st level bloodline powers in the game.(Seriously, go read it. It's basically "no save, just die") If you like the idea of a bard but don't want to play an actual bard then the Maestro bloodline is fun, and makes a great controller-type character....there is literally tons of bloodlines, many of which are both extremely flavorfull and quite effective....so once you decide on a focus, the bloodline, and thus the rest of the build, should come naturally.
Thaago wrote: I second Takhisis' advice that the choice of role should choose the bloodline and to specialize in that area. However - make sure to have general utility spells in addition to your specialty that won't suffer from having no DC boosts. Fly, haste, and glitterdust are all extraordinarily useful to name a few. I am going to disagree with any advice to specialise as a sorcerer. You have limited spells known and therefore need to make them work as effectively for you as possible. Pigeon holing yourself into a particular role is a bad idea. What you generally want to be able to do should cover:
For combat:
1. A way to target each of the three saves with a different type of effect.
2. If you choose to use elemental damage then spells with at least two different elemental types or the elemental spell metamagic feat.
3. The ability to impose a number of different status conditions. Over focusing in enchantments is going to make you sad when you come across undead and oozes.
4. Some SR: No spells for high SR enemies. Grease, Glitterdust and Stinking Cloud, Aqueous Orb and Black Tentacles are you friends here.
5. Some Save: No spells for high save enemies. Summons and Enervation are generally your best picks here.
6. Some sort of defensive and/or buffing spells. Mirror Image, Haste, Overland Flight etc are all excellent.
Outside of combat you want a small selection of utility and divination spells. What you want will depend on who is in the rest of your party, whether you can take advantage of mnemonic vestment/scrolls or whether or not you have access to paragon surge. You can also abuse the heck out of low level pages of spell knowledge to grab basically any level 1 spell you might ever need. Higher level ones tend to get pricier so you wont have many.
Quote: My 2 cents: don't go arcane bloodline unless the campaign is going to high level. It is very bad at low levels and worse than others at mid. The fey bloodline is a lot of fun for control/compulsion (and entangle as a bonus spell is pure gold). Draconic bloodline makes for a nice blaster, although blasters should have quite few damage spells. Arcane remains one of the best bloodlines by miles even at low levels. The familiar at level 1 should pretty much just read have another +4 initiative which s crucial for any form of caster. Later on it can be turned into an improved familiar for better action economy. Its arcana is arguably better than the +2 compulsion DC of Fey as you get potentially +1 to any spell you apply a metamagic effect to. This would include using rods to do so. Removing the cast time increase can be utterly crucial in some situations and New Arcana is just icing on the cake. By level 11 you can also easily afford the Robe of Arcane Heritage and gain access to the +2DC to an entire school of magic.
Arcane also opens up the option of the Sage bloodline which is quite possibly the best one available as it turns you into an Int based caster. You lose the familiar and +1DC but you get to have basically all of the skills.
I agree that Arcane is likely one of the strongest bloodlines. As an added note, the seeker archtype can give you trapfinding and access to the disable device skill, making a sage seeker sorcerer a true replacement for the rogue, if you like the idea of that. However, there are plenty of other good bloodlines, so just because Arcane is powerful dose not mean it is the only solid choice of bloodline. As for specializing, I am not saying to take all your spells towards your specialty. In fact, as a general rule of thump, if your NOT specializing in being a blaster, you really only need one spell of each level devoted to your specialty, and many times this will be your bloodline bonus spell. Your spells known generally should include utility, defenses and then spells devoted to your specialty. I am currently playing a Fey Sorcerer I'd say is "specialized" as an enchanter, yet his spell list only has two enchantment spells, one of which comes from his bloodline. The rest of his spells known is all generally useful stuff like protection from evil, haste, mirror image ect...To be a "specialist" dose not mean you take tons of spells in your specialty..it means you focus your build towards one thing while still having some other things you can do when your specialty won't work.
As I said, for most "specialties" you'll generally only need one spell per spell-level in your specialty. The only exception to this rule is, admittedly, blasters. Since sorcerers can't switch damage types on their blasts like evocation wizards can, you'll want to vary the damage types of your blasts so resistances and immunites don't mess you up. Also, I HIGHLY recommend you make your character a human, as the favored class bonus of extra spells known is just that valuable. In fact, the only other races I'd even consider over human would be half-elf and Kitsune, and only on very specific builds. If your making a half-elf sorc, you are planning on abusing paragon surge. If your making a Kitsune, your going for an enchanter with the Fey Bloodline and using the DC bonus favored class bonus. Any other build, Human is the optimal race no matter what. The favored class bonus is just that good.
Half Elves get to take the human FCB and gain Paragon Surge although it has now been toned down.
If you want to blast then you are probably best off focusing on one spell and then picking up Elemental Spell for the opposing element. Very few, if any, creatures are immune or highly resistant to both fire and cold for example.
If you just want some area damage which you can vary the elemental type for in order to deal with swarms or take advantage of vulnerabilities with then Dragon Breath is an excellent pick.
Yeah, your right. I actually didn't know the feat elemental spell existed because I never actually play blasters. Now that you've brought it to my attention then my advice still stands if you omit the whole thing about blasters. You generally only need one spell of each level you know in your specialty. If there is a spell level at which you REALLY want to take 2, taking 2 won't hurt you necessarily, just make sure to do this sparingly and try to stick to 1 if possible.(and yes, this counts bloodline spells) This has always been the rule I've followed for most sorcerers, and it has not failed me before.
I disagree with the Arcane bloodline being any good at low levels. I will grant that familiars are nice and only get better at high levels - but +4 initiative is one feat, which is not very much at all.
The Arcana and 3rd level bloodline power are useless on paper until 4th level, when you could metamagic the 1st level spells up a slot. But... in practice they are useless until 6th or even 8th as opportunities to effectively use metamagic on 1st level spells are limited and the sorcerer probably hasn't spent too many feats on them yet. The bonus spells are excellent... except for the 3rd level one, which is meh for a sorcerer, so that train only starts at 5.
Compare that to the goodies that other bloodlines get early - I really don't think I need to list the good ones.
At 10 things really click together - all of a sudden you have the spell slots to use metamagic effectively, your familiar is probably an improved boss, and between the extra spell and the good bonuses your spell list is really solid. From 10 on Arcane is fantastic, but I've seen a bunch of frustrated players from 1-6 who are getting very very little from it.
Thaago wrote: I disagree with the Arcane bloodline being any good at low levels. I will grant that familiars are nice and only get better at high levels - but +4 initiative is one feat, which is not very much at all. It is either saving you a feat slot which is great for sorcerers as they don't get that many or giving you a bonus which will stack with improved initiative or noble scion. If you are invested in going first and you very often are as a sorcerer that is a huge benefit.
Quote: The Arcana and 3rd level bloodline power are useless on paper until 4th level, when you could metamagic the 1st level spells up a slot. But... in practice they are useless until 6th or even 8th as opportunities to effectively use metamagic on 1st level spells are limited and the sorcerer probably hasn't spent too many feats on them yet. Magical Lineage and Wayang Spellhunter are both commonly recommended traits for spell casters and sorcerers make great use out of them. You can be throwing Persistent Colour Spray from level 1 if you want to be.
Quote: Compare that to the goodies that other bloodlines get early - I really don't think I need to list the good ones. Go ahead, the list is really really short.
andreww wrote: Thaago wrote: I disagree with the Arcane bloodline being any good at low levels. I will grant that familiars are nice and only get better at high levels - but +4 initiative is one feat, which is not very much at all. It is either saving you a feat slot which is great for sorcerers as they don't get that many or giving you a bonus which will stack with improved initiative or noble scion. If you are invested in going first and you very often are as a sorcerer that is a huge benefit.
Yeah, its a good benefit. Probably the best of the 1st level powers - and also a prime candidate for eldritch heritage from the other bloodlines, though thats a decent sized feat investment (of course the 9 and 15 powers are very good, so it is a good path to take). I'm not arguing that a familiar is bad, but I will say its not worth the lack of anything else.
Quote:
Quote: The Arcana and 3rd level bloodline power are useless on paper until 4th level, when you could metamagic the 1st level spells up a slot. But... in practice they are useless until 6th or even 8th as opportunities to effectively use metamagic on 1st level spells are limited and the sorcerer probably hasn't spent too many feats on them yet. Magical Lineage and Wayang Spellhunter are both commonly recommended traits for spell casters and sorcerers make great use out of them. You can be throwing Persistent Colour Spray from level 1 if you want to be.
You could, but its a bad idea! Those two traits are incredibly powerful (and one is regionally restricted, but thats ok because every sorcerer comes from Minata - must have been a plague elsewhere) and using them on a first level spell is a complete waste at higher levels. Even then, the only thing the arcane bloodline is getting you is +1 DC as compared to another bloodline. Besides, there are much better options for a color spray specialist like the Oracle.
Quote:
Quote: Compare that to the goodies that other bloodlines get early - I really don't think I need to list the good ones. Go ahead, the list is really really short.
Errr, ok. Here are a few that come to mind, though I've probably missed some cause I'm not re-reading them all right now.
Draconic get a damage boost which can make for some rather stunning low level damage. Draconic's bonus spells are excellent up until the 13-17 form of the dragon spam, but we're talking about low level. The claws and armor are meh unless going gish, but thats really neither here or there.
Fey gets a +2 DC boost without needing to blow its traits - and it can be made into a game breaker for levels 1-2 with a DC 20 sleep save (and those feats are very useful for higher level spells so its not such as waste as double traiting is). Fey also has excellent spells like entangle, and the Sylvan archetype gets an animal companion instead which is just ludicrous.
Marid (and elemental) have a surprisingly useful arcana that makes every damage spell dual type - and you can apply rime to it to lay down incredible control. That really comes into its own around level 6-ish, so its not the best example.
Serpentine is literally game changing - charm person just became charm monster for a large subset of things. It takes a bit of a clever player, but this is very, very powerful. Undead is similar, though really only for an undead heavy game, in which case it is again game changingly good.
Abyssal's make excellent summoners, though again that takes a few levels to take off due to the limited time of summons at low levels, so not the best example.
You're right, the list is kind of short :P.
Quote: Draconic get a damage boost which can make for some rather stunning low level damage. Draconic's bonus spells are excellent up until the 13-17 form of the dragon spam, but we're talking about low level. The claws and armor are meh unless going gish, but thats really neither here or there. Draconic Arcana is OK but only really comes into its own when paired with Draconic. If you want damage you go all the way. If you want dazing control then Arcane is actually better due to the DC increases available. The bloodline powers for Draconic however are fairly weak. Claws are terrible, natural armour is OK, breath is a bit pointless.
Quote: Fey gets a +2 DC boost without needing to blow its traits - and it can be made into a game breaker for levels 1-2 with a DC 20 sleep save (and those feats are very useful for higher level spells so its not such as waste as double traiting is). Fey also has excellent spells like entangle, and the Sylvan archetype gets an animal companion instead which is just ludicrous. Fey is a strong option but Sleep becomes redundant very quickly. Its bloodline spells are terrible. Entangle is OK but will tend to get in your party's way more than anything else. The rest are weak until you hit level 18 with Shapechange. The bloodline powers are pretty bad with the exception of the level 15 effect.
Quote: Marid (and elemental) have a surprisingly useful arcana that makes every damage spell dual type - and you can apply rime to it to lay down incredible control. That really comes into its own around level 6-ish, so its not the best example. I have never understood why people rate rime so highly, its an OK status effect to impose but you can just as easily be applying for worse ones like blinded or paralysed just using normal spells.
Quote: Serpentine is literally game changing - charm person just became charm monster for a large subset of things. It takes a bit of a clever player, but this is very, very powerful. Undead is similar, though really only for an undead heavy game, in which case it is again game changingly good. Neither of these is really all that great. You can make animals your friends. Druids have been doing that for years and no-one cries overpowered. Also you can do the same thing with Charm Monster so it is a time limited benefit. The Undead bloodline is just generally bad.
Quote: Abyssal's make excellent summoners, though again that takes a few levels to take off due to the limited time of summons at low levels, so not the best example. I think you missed out "at level 15" when you get the only bloodline power which is really worth anything.
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