I pretty much agree, but I think that Bless is by far a better choice than Divine favor. Everyone gets the +1 to hit, it lasts longer, and it's even possible that +1 vs fear effects could come in handy.Eh... First, bless stays at +1 while D.F. scales with level. Second, D.F. also boosts damage. At 9th level it's +3/+3 compared to +1/+0. Past the early levels, bless is barely noticeable. And this is all before we even factor in Fate's Favored.
Third, lasting longer is true in letter but false in practice. Even you, the Chief Advocate of Let's Not Play Rocket Tag, estimated combats at lasting around 6(ish) rounds. That means both spells effectively last 1 combat, so the duration difference is meaningless. Sure, bless could be a pre-buff, but then it's stacking with D.F. rather than competing with it. Both is better than either.
There are some nice buffs that a cleric might well apply to the fighter instead of self, such as Greater Magic Weapon.GMW is better coming from the wizard than the cleric, actually, making that one a moot point. And again, that's a pre-cast type of spell, therefore not really competing for buffing rounds.
But in general, laying down a party-wide buff is the best choice.All else being equal, yes. ...
Ah yes, but remember we're were talking about 2nd level clerics, where Divine favor remains a +1/+1. Divine Favor would be really great if it lasted one minute per level, like Bless, eh?
It's possible for a Bless with two minutes to be two combats. Later, it easily can be, but yes, it doesn't stack very well.
Yes, you're right, my Sorc blows four 3rd level spells on the Fighter, battle/cleric, rogue and Bard (for her bow). But we also have a Life Oracle and yes, he is a dedicated buffer/healer- and a darn good one too. So we have both a melee cleric and a Fighter. (We have six players, but usually only five make it).
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He did? Where?You can't compare a plus one party wide to a plus three on one person on a one to one basis.Why not? He did. Don't see you saying the same to him.
In the quote of his that I was replying to, which I quoted in the post YOU were replying to, which YOU in turn quoted in your own post. My comparison was actually a refutation of his.
+8 to hit as a 2nd level cleric? Pretty impressive. And 8 to damage, too? Wanna run that out for me?I can heal you for 1d8+2 (average = 6.5)
Or thump the bad guy at +8 to hit, for 2d6+8 (average = 16)
That's at second level, the discrepancy only gets bigger from here.
+1 BAB
+1 MW weapon+5 ability score
+1 bless, or a bard is helping out, or .....
Now that is an edge case, but so are optimized healers that can keep up with damage since most people don't dedicate that much to healing.
Most people build have characters that can heal which is different from someone who is built to heal. <-----That is why people saying healing can't keep up. They are speaking in general.
However even focusing on healing makes it hard to keep up if you have enough difficult fights, bad luck, or very non tactical party members, so generally speaking it won't keep up.
I think he was just listing all the different reasons that DrDeth's skepticism of a melee-capable cleric was misplaced. We already saw that only one buff, not two, was needed for a moderate melee cleric to reach the attack/damage specified.Hmm. Fate's Favored, Divine Favor, 18 STR, masterwork weapon.+8 to hit as a 2nd level cleric? Pretty impressive. And 8 to damage, too? Wanna run that out for me?I can heal you for 1d8+2 (average = 6.5)
Or thump the bad guy at +8 to hit, for 2d6+8 (average = 16)
That's at second level, the discrepancy only gets bigger from here.
...
If you threw out a bless that's another +1 to attack.
If you're an evangelist you can get another +1 to attack and damage from Inspire Courage.
...
Damage is actually pretty easy for clerics to get.
With both bless and divine favor, you've spent two rounds buffing.
The typical fight is over in three.
Not really. BAB is +1. I have grave doubts for a str of 18, since the std guides on the class suggest a 16 after racial, with a 15 pt build.
But let's go with it. That's +4. Total +5, with a MW makes it +6 and +4 to damage.Not gonna be a combat cleric and evangelist, since you lose a domain, and are limited to light armor and no shield.
Spells? Bogus. You can cast 2-4 spells total as a 2nd level cleric, so using Bless and Divine Favor, means you have blown your spells for the day in one combat out of 4. But let's give you Fate's Favor & Divine Favor for one buff spell. That does get you to +8 to hit, but only +6 to damage.
This means you get that for 1/4 of your encounters and have no pluses in DEX, Con, INT or CHA, your stats are 18,10,10, 10, 14, 10. Really? Still doesnt get you to +8 to damage.
But I asked how *HE* got to +8 to hit and damage. Maybe Raglum can respond?
This really isnt rocket science. You forgot hes wielding a 2handed weapon so he gets 1.5x his Str Mod. Hes a cleric of gorum wielding a greatsword. You also bring up 15 pb in these kinds of discussions when PFS is 20pb and "Standard" play is 4d6 drop the lowest which amounts to about 20pb(slightly higher actually).
You have no more right to dictate their build than anyone else has a right to dictate your characters build.
This I can agree with to a large extent. As long as you are pulling your weight that is what matters in many groups. In some groups the GM will adjust things to cover for you. If the GM is not budging, and the builder is not budging then it is time for a group talk.
Divine Favour is +2/2 with a trait.
Bless remains a decent option until around level 5 when I would much rather start off a fight with some sort of offensive spell like Burst of Radiance.
Eh, I disagree. If I'm going to start with an offensive spell I'm following up with more offensive spells because I tend to build one way or the other with some exceptions.
Still that's a very good spell (puts in his notes, sadly it's not core for the guide.
Not gonna be a combat cleric and evangelist, since you lose a domain, and are limited to light armor and no shield.
Never stopped me.
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There are people on the boards that will tell you how healing in combat is bad, a wasted action...
No kidding? Those people are crazy. Healing has it's place. I'm not sure it's the most effective thing a Cleric can do, but it has it's place.
The trick is not wasting too many resources and getting shoe-horned into a totally heal-bot role.
I think this is the far more prevailing opinion out there.
Healing can be useful in combat, but tends to be a poor primary role because healing:
scales horribly with the damage being dished out at the levels in question....
At least until spells like Heal come up, which changes the landscape. It's the "cure" spells that are problematic (unfortunately the ones that Clerics cast spontaneously)
I am not one of them. I have seen healing in combat be the difference in keeping a Barbarian doing his excellent melee damage. I have seen healing in combat be the difference where I could see that if one guy fell the rest of the party would topple soon after.
I think it's important to point out at this point that if that Cleric is spending his time buffing/controlling/doing damage instead of healing when the healing isn't needed, you may never get to the point where it is vital in many combats. Still, every combat is different...
Incidentally I have also seen the effectiveness of a blaster caster even though they are supposed to be totally horrible and a drain on the party according to the messageboards.
No kidding? Those people are crazy. Blasting has it's place. Clerics aren't particularly suited to blasting, but the occasional flame strike has it's place.
The messageboards are full of people who theorycraft and DPR themselves into stupidly restrictive roles in the name of some supposed "effectiveness equation".
Don't listen to them and do what you think is best in your game.
I find playing a character who can only do one thing well quite boring. Versatility is power anyways. Considering what the other characters are good at and considering how you might work well as a team has value, especially if you don't want to be falling into the die-raise dead-die-raise dead pattern.
My advise would be opposite of what is quoted above. You should ALWAYS listen to advise, just take it for what it's worth. If that advise is criticized, consider the criticism with the same skepticism as the original advise. There is a lot of differing views on these boards, there is value in that.
This really isnt rocket science. You forgot hes wielding a 2handed weapon so he gets 1.5x his Str Mod. Hes a cleric of gorum wielding a greatsword. You also bring up 15 pb in these kinds of discussions when PFS is 20pb and "Standard" play is 4d6 drop the lowest which amounts to about 20pb(slightly higher actually).
Where did you get "cleric of Gorum"? Here's his post:
"I can heal you for 1d8+2 (average = 6.5)
Or thump the bad guy at +8 to hit, for 2d6+8 (average = 16)
That's at second level, the discrepancy only gets bigger from here."
Certainly, with a trait, a couple of spells, and putting almost all your points into STR it *CAN* be done. But since you only get the spells for one or two combats, that's a little unfair to say you always get that.
Sure, 20pt buy is common, but 15pb is the default. You can even have a 25 pt buy or a generous rolling system where you have several 18's. All that's fine, but if you're gonna run numbers like that you should tell us what system you got your stats from.
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Divine Favour is +2/2 with a trait.
Bless remains a decent option until around level 5 when I would much rather start off a fight with some sort of offensive spell like Burst of Radiance.
Eh, I disagree. If I'm going to start with an offensive spell I'm following up with more offensive spells because I tend to build one way or the other with some exceptions.
Still that's a very good spell (puts in his notes, sadly it's not core for the guide.
My melee cleric typically either cast divine favor on round 1 or went buff-less (casting offensive or support spells or just hacking at lower to-hit and damage), depending on the fight. Yeah, you usually don't lead off with a non-buff spell and then follow up with a buff the next round.
And yes, BoR is awesome. :)
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No kidding? Those people are crazy. Healing has it's place. I'm not sure it's the most effective thing a Cleric can do, but it has it's place.
*takes a picture before he flees back into the forest*
Pretty much all I've said ever.
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Certainly, with a trait, a couple of spells, and putting almost all your points into STR it *CAN* be done.
Or to be more honest about it, it's "with a trait, ONE spell, and putting a pretty standard number of points (for a frontliner) into STR, it's easily done".
But since you only get the spells for one or two combats, that's a little unfair to say you always get that.
Or since it's only one spell that's needed, it's actually pretty fair to say that you consistenly get that.
This really isnt rocket science. You forgot hes wielding a 2handed weapon so he gets 1.5x his Str Mod. Hes a cleric of gorum wielding a greatsword. You also bring up 15 pb in these kinds of discussions when PFS is 20pb and "Standard" play is 4d6 drop the lowest which amounts to about 20pb(slightly higher actually).Where did you get "cleric of Gorum"? Here's his post:
"I can heal you for 1d8+2 (average = 6.5)
Or thump the bad guy at +8 to hit, for 2d6+8 (average = 16)
That's at second level, the discrepancy only gets bigger from here."
Certainly, with a trait, a couple of spells, and putting almost all your points into STR it *CAN* be done. But since you only get the spells for one or two combats, that's a little unfair to say you always get that.
Sure, 20pt buy is common, but 15pb is the default. You can even have a 25 pt buy or a generous rolling system where you have several 18's. All that's fine, but if you're gonna run numbers like that you should tell us what system you got your stats from.
I got that because I research a little more than just a cursory glance over posts. Go and click on his profile. Ill give you a hint. His profile stars with Raglum, Favored of Gorum and then he lists his stats and you can even see hes a PFS character.
Also I find it a bit disorienting to call 15 pb the default when theres another option called "Standard".
All that's fine, but if you're gonna run numbers like that you should tell us what system you got your stats from.
Absolutely. But I will say that you've been shown several ways that it happens. You may not like how they got there but they absolutely did get there.
One cast of Greater Forbid Action is worth all the heals
Also I find it a bit disorienting to call 15 pb the default when theres another option called "Standard".
"Table: Ability Score Points
Campaign Type PointsLow Fantasy 10
Standard Fantasy 15
High Fantasy 20
Epic Fantasy 25....
The standard value for a character is 15 points."
"Standard= 15 pb"
Also I find it a bit disorienting to call 15 pb the default when theres another option called "Standard".
"Table: Ability Score Points
Campaign Type Points
Low Fantasy 10
Standard Fantasy 15
High Fantasy 20
Epic Fantasy 25....The standard value for a character is 15 points."
"Standard= 15 pb"
Which is the 5th option down in generating ability scores. The first is "Standard" 4d6 drop the lowest, followed by Classic 3d6.
It also doesnt help that the vast majority of games are 20 pointbuy or standard. Skims of character generation on this forum's pbp and roll20 looking for party members as well as PFS leads even more credence that 15pb is very much not the default.
Certainly, with a trait, a couple of spells, and putting almost all your points into STR it *CAN* be done.Or to be more honest about it, it's "with a trait, ONE spell, and putting a pretty standard number of points (for a frontliner) into STR, it's easily done".
But since you only get the spells for one or two combats, that's a little unfair to say you always get that.Or since it's only one spell that's needed, it's actually pretty fair to say that you consistenly get that.
He can cast that for a maximum of three combats a day, and that uses up all his spells, not counting a domain spell, which isnt DF.
Yes, he's using a 20pt buy- and dumping INT. STR of 18.
Cool trait, but we dont know he has it. Not unreasonable to assume a MW weapon, but not a given either.
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But then I'd expect you to act like a front-line tank.
Fun story: in a previous thread on a similar topic over in the PFS forums, somebody was appalled at the idea that there were clerics who weren't going to prioritize healing his frontliner. I (and others) tried to explain that my (and their) cleric was built to fight.
Apparently he couldn't grasp that concept, as in addition to accusing me of not contributing to the group, he tried to threaten me with exactly what I wanted:
Him: "Fine, if you won't heal me, then we'll see how you like it when I get low on HP and withdraw to the back and let your cleric handle the front lines himself!"
Me: "Um... yes please?"
Yeah, I've seen these conversations quite a few times:
What cleric player says: "I'm playing a melee character who does tons of damage on the front line, but since he's a cleric, he also has some spells and domain powers and can heal."
What other player hears: "I'm playing a blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah, blah CLERIC, blah blah blah blah HEAL."
This is why I don't use the word "cleric" when I introduce my front line debuffer/tank in PFS. As I've already mentioned in this thread, his only healing comes from wands, and I don't want anyone thinking he's a healer.
Most of the intelligent criticism I see of healing and blasting isn't saying "never do them" so much as "This should not be the only thing your character does, or even necessarily your primary focus." Most of the anti-blasting/healing sentiment on the board is a reaction to players who feel that wizards/clerics should only be blasting/healbotting.
Just speaking from personal experience, despite what experienced players know there are still a lot of people who pigeon-hole classes into narrow roles. Heck, I've had players demand that my Inquisitor or Bard serve as a heal-bot, simply because healing spells are on their spell lists. Heck, I once had a monk player start screaming at me to have my cast Cure Light Wounds on him mid-battle ... when we were level fifteen.
Which is the 5th option down in generating ability scores. The first is "Standard" 4d6 drop the lowest, followed by Classic 3d6.
Also I find it a bit disorienting to call 15 pb the default when theres another option called "Standard".
"Table: Ability Score Points
Campaign Type Points
Low Fantasy 10
Standard Fantasy 15
High Fantasy 20
Epic Fantasy 25....The standard value for a character is 15 points."
"Standard= 15 pb"
What does that have to do with a discussion of Point buy?
No doubt, if you roll, you could get 18,18,18,18,18,18 and bump that to 20,18,18,18,18,18. But if you have rolled that should be stated.
15pts is "standard" it sez so twice.
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Certainly, with a trait, a couple of spells, and putting almost all your points into STR it *CAN* be done. But since you only get the spells for one or two combats, that's a little unfair to say you always get that.
This really isn't a weird fringe variant of cleric, Deth - decent strength with a two-handed weapon is more or less the "default" battle cleric. Fate's Favored is wildly popular for divine characters in general (paladin, warpriest, battle cleric, battle oracle, inquisitor) because it synergizes extremely well with Divine Favor, Prayer and Divine Power.
Looking over Raglum's character sheet (thanks for pointing that out Scavion!) he was made with a 20 pb budget, and has plenty of point buy to spare - he could easily make the same character in 15 pb by investing slightly less in his tertiary (charisma, dexterity) ability scores. By throwing on Weapon Focus (an extremely common feat for a cleric) he could even up the to hit bonus to +9. He has three level 1 spell slots available for Divine Favor per day, with the domain slot open for whatever else he wants.
Frankly, I'm a little surprised you're not more familiar with battle clerics - are they not popular in your player group?
No kidding? Those people are crazy. Healing has it's place. I'm not sure it's the most effective thing a Cleric can do, but it has it's place.*takes a picture before he flees back into the forest*
Pretty much all I've said ever.
This.
Most of the intelligent criticism I see of healing and blasting isn't saying "never do them" so much as "This should not be the only thing your character does, or even necessarily your primary focus." Most of the anti-blasting/healing sentiment on the board is a reaction to players who feel that wizards/clerics should only be blasting/healbotting.
I have said many times that Buffing should be the first job of a divine caster, and healing done only in later rounds, as needed. In our games "as needed" is commonplace, but we do have 6+ round combats.
I think a Life oracle is a great choice and it can be said healing is their "primary focus", but it's hardly their only trick.
I agree, blasters are too often "one trick ponies" who not only fail when blasting isn't the right tool, but can even fail when their one special damage element isn't useful.
I think Battlefield control should be a arcane casters first choice, but utility, buffing and blasting all should be things he can do.
You know, humans/half-elves/half-orcs exist. You can get 18 STR post-racial without having to go dump-crazy. An 18 is not fringe.Yes, he's using a 20pt buy- and dumping INT. STR of 18.
Of course you can, but he didn't. He posted his PC's stats on his profile, which I just recently noticed. 18 is high for a 15pt build, but not for a 20 pt build.
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Wow, doin' it the hard way then.Say what now?
Taking a race that doesn't boost your primary stat. They're CON/WIS, great for caster clerics, but for a melee cleric it'd be easier to go with, say, a Dual Talent human for STR/WIS, or even a regular human/helf/horc for STR and other features.
You can't compare a plus one party wide to a plus three on one person on a one to one basis.
Actually, it's pretty trivial to compare a +2/+2 (what you would see at second level, or even +3/+3 at 3rd level) to a party-wide +1/+0. Yeah, you can't say +2 > +1 QED, but it's pretty basic arithmetic to compare the net change in damage between the two buffs. The more meleers in the party, the more likely the +1 will be better, but it's entirely possible that the +2/+2 will be better.
How do you get "+2/+2 (what you would see at second level, or even +3/+3 at 3rd level)"?
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Gah. Which one is it that is Str and something? I could swear there was one when I was looking at my invulnerable rager...
Among the aasimar, I think the only STR option was Angel-blooded, for STR/CHA. Not a terrible choice for a melee cleric, but much more popular for paladins, battle oracles, and "oradins".
Among tieflings, there's the Oni-spawn (which is what mine is) for +STR/WIS and -CHA, or the Qlippoth-spawn for +STR/WIS and -INT.
And then of course there's any of the races with a floating +2, and dual-talent humans for +OK/LOL. They're the only way to get +STR/WIS without a penalty anywhere, as far as I know.
So yeah, taking 18 STR on a melee cleric but picking lawbringer aasimar is a little... unintuitive.
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How do you get "+2/+2 (what you would see at second level, or even +3/+3 at 3rd level)"?
The +2/+2 is just D.F with Fate's Favored. The +3/+3 at 3rd level is Fate's Favored plus (I'm guessing) a misreading of how the spell scales. It's +1 per 3CL, minimum +1; I'm guessing he thought it was +1, plus an additional +1 per 3CL.