I'm bringing in an archer to a PFS/CRB-only game, and I'm planning out my build. This is what I have so far:
Kaz
CN Half-Orc Ranger
Companion: Wolf (Scruffy the Vampire Hunter)
st 15 dx 15(17) cn 13 in 10 ws 13 ch 10
Skills:
Climb
Handle Animal
Knowledge (Religion)
Knowledge (Nature)
Perception
Stealth
Survival
I have one too many skills, so Climb is just going to be boosted with favored class level up points.
1 Point Blank, Favored Enemy (Undead)
2 Precise Shot
3 Rapid Shot, Favored Terrain (Underground)
4 +1 Dex
5 Deadly Aim, Favored Enemy (Abberation)
6 Imp. Precise Shot
7 Manyshot
8 +1 Str, Favored Terrain (Mountain or Forest?)
9 Improved Critical (Bow)?
10 Some Combat Style feat?, Favored Enemy (Magical Beast?)
11 ???
12 +1 Con
I know a human would be more powerful (extra feat and skill points), but I have a character concept in mind involving his Orc heritage.
As you can see, I'm running out of feats to take by level 9. Does what I have complete an archer build (so I should just take other concept-related feats)? Or did I miss something? Thanks.
Clustered shot
Weapon focus, improved initiative, extend spell.
Honesty, I wouldn't take precise shot as a ranger. I would just wait for 6th to get imp. precise shot and take something else with that feat slot.
Clustered shot
Not CRB, otherwise I would have suggested snap shot chain and combat reflexes.
Honestly, combat reflexes still isn't a bad feat if you are wearing armor with gauntlets.
Honesty, I wouldn't take precise shot as a ranger. I would just wait for 6th to get imp. precise shot and take something else with that feat slot.
Is the -4 penalty for shooting into a melee considered a bonus for cover? It stands to reason, but RAW make it clear that it's two separate things. In fact, actually, it would seem that I should take both a -4 penalty for shooting into a melee, and my target would get +4 AC if an ally is in the line of sight for the shot.
I never really thought of skipping it, but if Improved Precise shot covers it, I could see why it would be worth skipping.
Actually, I checked the srd on firing into a melee and saw this:
"If your target (or the part of your target you're aiming at, if it's a big target) is at least 10 feet away from the nearest friendly character, you can avoid the –4 penalty, even if the creature you're aiming at is engaged in melee with a friendly character."
I assume they mean the nearest friendly from the target and this is addressing situations where the target has reach?
Honestly, combat reflexes still isn't a bad feat if you are wearing armor with gauntlets.
Why armor with gauntlets? Though, I'll only be wearing a chain shirt, max, anyway.
Combat reflexes crossed my mind, but do you think an archer would really get a lot of use out of it?
Also, what would I do with extend spell? I'll have hardly any spellcasting, even at level 12.
Improved initiative is a good idea. Even with the high dex, I can see locking in the top spot as valuable.
Honesty, I wouldn't take precise shot as a ranger. I would just wait for 6th to get imp. precise shot and take something else with that feat slot.Is the -4 penalty for shooting into a melee considered a bonus for cover? It stands to reason, but RAW make it clear that it's two separate things. In fact, actually, it would seem that I should take both a -4 penalty for shooting into a melee, and my target would get +4 AC if an ally is in the line of sight for the shot.
I never really thought of skipping it, but if Improved Precise shot covers it, I could see why it would be worth skipping.
Actually, I checked the srd on firing into a melee and saw this:
"If your target (or the part of your target you're aiming at, if it's a big target) is at least 10 feet away from the nearest friendly character, you can avoid the –4 penalty, even if the creature you're aiming at is engaged in melee with a friendly character."
I assume they mean the nearest friendly from the target and this is addressing situations where the target has reach?
Honestly, combat reflexes still isn't a bad feat if you are wearing armor with gauntlets.Why armor with gauntlets? Though, I'll only be wearing a chain shirt, max, anyway.
Combat reflexes crossed my mind, but do you think an archer would really get a lot of use out of it?
Also, what would I do with extend spell? I'll have hardly any spellcasting, even at level 12.
Improved initiative is a good idea. Even with the high dex, I can see locking in the top spot as valuable.
Imp. precise shot eliminates all cover penalties, so it is inclusive of precise shot. With neither you do indeed suffer an adjusted -8 if shooting into melee through a friendly square.
Extend spell for longstrider (particularly if you wear medium armor or pick up heavy armor proficiency) endure elements (if you ever needed it), and greater magic fang.
You can only take AOO's with a melee weapon you are proficient with so wearing guantlets is better than taking IUS. At the end of each turn you use a free action to remove one hand from your bow. Now you threaten with that hand. At the beginning of your turn use a free action to regrab your bow.
Remember that threatening does more than just allow you to AOO, it also allows you to flank for your buddies.
Imp. precise shot eliminates all cover penalties, so it is inclusive of precise shot.
I'm not arguing with the logic, and I'll bring it up with the GM, but I don't see anything that states the penalty for firing into a melee is a cover penalty, whereas the cover section only discusses walls as cover examples.
You can only take AOO's with a melee weapon you are proficient with so wearing guantlets is better than taking IUS. At the end of each turn you use a free action to remove one hand from your bow. Now you threaten with that hand. At the beginning of your turn use a free action to regrab your bow.
Remember that threatening does more than just allow you to AOO, it also allows you to flank for your buddies.
Good point.
Imp. precise shot eliminates all cover penalties, so it is inclusive of precise shot. With neither you do indeed suffer an adjusted -8 if shooting into melee through a friendly square.Checking the PRD, shooting or throwing into melee is under a different section entirely from the rules for cover (under Attacks). I'd agree with Kneller that improved precise shot isn't inclusive. But it is a good feat all the same, given how much of a pain it can be to determine cover.
Your ranged attacks ignore anything but total concealment and cover.
Seems pretty straight forward to me, but if you really want to have precise shot, it won't hurt my feelings.
In any event, I have to take one of the combat style feats at level 10. My My only options at this point are Far Shot, Pinpoint, or Shot on the Run. I'm guessing Pinpoint is the better option? Though, none of them seem like anything to write home about.
I'm thinking Iron Will for level 9, and Improved Crit or Combat Reflexes for 11. I'm not sure about the level 11 pick, but it's so close to the end of his career, I wonder how much it really matters anyway.
Iron Will, Toughness, Great Fortitude all spring to mind. Don't ignore your defenses. Worst thing that can happen to a weak will base class with huge damage is to get dominated and rip up your party. If you're planning your 9 and 11 feats iron Will and Improved Iron Will are pretty good, or Iron will and Great Fortitude.
Imp. precise shot eliminates all cover penalties, so it is inclusive of precise shot. With neither you do indeed suffer an adjusted -8 if shooting into melee through a friendly square.Checking the PRD, shooting or throwing into melee is under a different section entirely from the rules for cover (under Attacks). I'd agree with Kneller that improved precise shot isn't inclusive. But it is a good feat all the same, given how much of a pain it can be to determine cover.Seems pretty straight forward to me, but if you really want to have precise shot, it won't hurt my feelings.Your ranged attacks ignore anything but total concealment and cover.
"Improved Precise Shot Benefit: Your ranged attacks ignore the AC bonus granted to targets by anything less than total cover, and the miss chance granted to targets by anything less than total concealment. Total cover and total concealment provide their normal benefits against your ranged attacks."
Improved Precise shot only applies to AC bonuses from less than total cover, and the miss chance from less than total concealment. Firing in to melee provides neither of those, it applies a penalty to attack rolls.
If you want to negate that penalty you need the feat that says it negates it.
"Improved Precise Shot Benefit:...
If you want to negate that penalty you need the feat that says it negates it.
That's how I read it, too.
Iron Will, Toughness, Great Fortitude all spring to mind. Don't ignore your defenses. Worst thing that can happen to a weak will base class with huge damage is to get dominated and rip up your party.
That's why I was thinking Iron Will at level 9. Around then, the strong will classes will really be pulling out ahead of me. I wonder if Greater Iron Will is worth it though. It's only a once a day reroll, which basically equates to a +3 bonus only once a day, whereas regular Iron Will is a +2 bonus all the time. I wish I could just take Iron Will twice.
As for level 10, is Pinpoint the way to go?
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You probably have a really high Dex. Weapon Finesse could be handy for those times you find yourself in melee and you can't do anything about it.
Think of Shot on the Run as a defensive thing. You can move out of total cover, take a shot, and then move back into total cover.
Pinpoint Targeting is one of those things for when you're fighting something you just can't hit--which, with Precise Shot and IPS, should be just about never.
Pinpoint Targeting is one of those things for when you're fighting something you just can't hit--which, with Precise Shot and IPS, should be just about never.
That's how I took it, but I don't see shot on the run helping much either. I don't see myself worrying about cover too much as I have a few melee fighters in my party to hold the line.
Catch off guard or IMP unarmed strike.
Catch off guard or IMP unarmed strike.
Why burn a feat that can be replaced with a simple piece of gear? Gauntlets, or armor spikes are the clear preferred choice. You could spend that feat on anything else and be better off. There is never ever a reason to take IUS.
Actually, I think a gauntlet is a no-go:
"This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack."
So, unless you have IUS, you're not threatening anyone with a gauntlet. Your DM might hand-wave it (no pun intended), but it's not RAW.
I'm fairly certain I'm going for Iron Will at level 9. I'm sure my WWill saves could use some catching up at that point. For level 11, though, I'm still tossed between a lot of options:
Combat Reflexes
Great Fortitude
Toughness
Diehard
Improved Iron Will
I think CR and GF are the strongest contenders here. If he was TWF and not archery, CR would totally pull out ahead. But, as is, it's a real tough call.
Side note, is there any way to avoid an AoO while using a bow in melee?
At 11th, clustered shots in the no-brainier, since you're definitely now fighting things with DR. Pretty much all the time!
Snap shot looks good on paper, but if you're an archer anywhere near the enemy, you're doing it wrong. You should really never be in melee range with enemies.
If you have a forgiving GM who allows you to stuff as many different kinds of arrows as you like in your efficient quiver, then of course clustered shots could be a wasted feat - in that case, I'm a fan of archers taking skill focus (perception); combine that with the ioun stone which grants Alertness and a set of Eyes of the Eagle, and your adding +15 to your perception checks - this adds 150 feet to your initial encounter distance, giving you probably 2-3 rounds of full attacks on spotted enemies before they can close with your party. For archers, encounter distance is everything.
At 11th, clustered shots in the no-brainier, since you're definitely now fighting things with DR. Pretty much all the time!
Miss the bit in the title that said CRB-only? It's not in the CRB, so I can't have Clustered or Snap Shot.
Snap shot looks good on paper, but if you're an archer anywhere near the enemy, you're doing it wrong. You should really never be in melee range with enemies.
Not necessarily. We just played this module where there were a lot of tight spaces. Sometimes it can't be avoided.
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Clustered shots might be a no-brainer, if the OP was using material outside of the CRB.
Forget that nonsense about Improved Precise Shot and Precise Shot overlapping. They're for different things and both absolutely necessary.
My suggestion:
1 Point Blank, Favored Enemy 1 (Humanoid: Human)
2 Precise Shot
3 Rapid Shot, Favored Terrain (Underground)
3 Endurance (bonus)
4 +1 Dex
5 Deadly Aim, Favored Enemy 2 (Outsider/Undead depends on campaign/AP)
6 Imp. Precise Shot
7 Manyshot
8 +1 Str, Favored Terrain (depends on campaign/AP)
9 Weapon Focus: Longbow
10 Pinpoint Targeting, Favored Enemy 3 (depends on campaign/AP)
11 Improved Initiative
12 +1 Con
Pinpoint Targeting is useful when you're facing stuff with a huge armor bonus (like a dragon) at higher levels. If you have a distance penalty, that can make it tough to connect. A single Pinpoint Aim shot with Deadly Aim can keep you hitting. Use a Slaying Arrow for even more fun. Also works if your party can help buff your arrows somehow.
There are lots of feats and strategies from other books that are fun and powerful. I've found that CRB stuff is great stuff.
At higher levels, if you continue to run out of stuff to take, you can try Skill Focus in things like Perception and Kn: Local or the +2 to Fort/Will saves feats.
Actually, I think a gauntlet is a no-go:
"This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack."
So, unless you have IUS, you're not threatening anyone with a gauntlet. Your DM might hand-wave it (no pun intended), but it's not RAW.
I'm fairly certain I'm going for Iron Will at level 9. I'm sure my WWill saves could use some catching up at that point. For level 11, though, I'm still tossed between a lot of options:
Combat Reflexes
Great Fortitude
Toughness
Diehard
Improved Iron WillI think CR and GF are the strongest contenders here. If he was TWF and not archery, CR would totally pull out ahead. But, as is, it's a real tough call.
Side note, is there any way to avoid an AoO while using a bow in melee?
If you don't want to use gauntlets then have armor with armor spikes. The ability to threaten is an important team synergy thing to do, even if you don't care about AOO's.
Yes there is a feat to avoid the AOO for making a ranged attack, it is not a core feat.
Iron Will.
Iron will. Getting to play your character is a pretty big plus in my book.
Not quite as critical in PFS, where you can just slot a clear spindle ioun stone into your wayfinder and be protected from mental control by evil creatures (succubi! vampires!)
There's also going for the Moonlit Stalker feat line, if you can shoot from cover consistently. Plus it allows for team synergy with casters that can magically conceal you.
Also I back the Iron Will thing.
I still say Skill Focus (perception) > Iron Will.
My 11th level PFS ranger (with Alertness, Skill Focus (perception) and Eyes of the Eagle) can rock +60 perception in favored terrain - that's a 70 perception check on average.
That means he can reliably pinpoint a stationary invisible target at 300 feet - add in a seeking bow, and that enemy is dead.
Can't shoot what you can't see!
I still say Skill Focus (perception) > Iron Will.
My 11th level PFS ranger (with Alertness, Skill Focus (perception) and Eyes of the Eagle) can rock +60 perception in favored terrain - that's a 70 perception check on average.
That means he can reliably pinpoint a stationary invisible target at 300 feet - add in a seeking bow, and that enemy is dead.
Can't shoot what you can't see!
Can't shoot when you're blinded or stunned or ...
Can't shoot when you're blinded or stunned or ...I still say Skill Focus (perception) > Iron Will.
My 11th level PFS ranger (with Alertness, Skill Focus (perception) and Eyes of the Eagle) can rock +60 perception in favored terrain - that's a 70 perception check on average.
That means he can reliably pinpoint a stationary invisible target at 300 feet - add in a seeking bow, and that enemy is dead.
Can't shoot what you can't see!
Well, those are typically Fort saves, not Will.
Also, if an enemy is blinding/stunning me at 300 ft., they deserve the win :P
Builds run out of feats, characters don't.
I agree. I liked the idea of playing a build that's effective, but doesn't need all the feats so I can throw some character into build, as opposed to just rp.
I see a lot for Iron Will, and that's going to be my L9 pick, but I have another at L11 to plan for. I'm still considering the following:
Combat Reflexes
Great Fortitude
Toughness
Diehard
Improved Iron Will
At that point, I might just go with something random, for character's sake, though.
If you're set on Iron Will for 9, it's good to leverage that and go Improved Iron Will at 11 - it's basically a +5 (statistically-speaking) to a roll once-daily, which, added to Iron Will, totals to +7: that's probably almost doubling your Will save once daily (again, speaking statistically).
Thinking back on the two ranged characters I play (an 11th level ranger in PFS and a 15th level ranged inquisitor in a home game), probably the only time either one has failed a save-or-suck was a Fort save (my PFS ranger, to a baleful polymorph), but that's kind of an outlier case.
Can't shoot when you're blinded or stunned or ...I still say Skill Focus (perception) > Iron Will.
My 11th level PFS ranger (with Alertness, Skill Focus (perception) and Eyes of the Eagle) can rock +60 perception in favored terrain - that's a 70 perception check on average.
That means he can reliably pinpoint a stationary invisible target at 300 feet - add in a seeking bow, and that enemy is dead.
Can't shoot what you can't see!
Well, those are typically Fort saves, not Will.
COLOR SPRAY, GLITTERDUST, etc all beg to differ.
COLOR SPRAY, GLITTERDUST, etc all beg to differ.Can't shoot when you're blinded or stunned or ...I still say Skill Focus (perception) > Iron Will.
My 11th level PFS ranger (with Alertness, Skill Focus (perception) and Eyes of the Eagle) can rock +60 perception in favored terrain - that's a 70 perception check on average.
That means he can reliably pinpoint a stationary invisible target at 300 feet - add in a seeking bow, and that enemy is dead.
Can't shoot what you can't see!
Well, those are typically Fort saves, not Will.
Well, we're talking about 11th level characters, so color spray has long since ceased to be a concern.
Glitterdust, certainly, but it's medium range, so unless my target is 20th level, I'm probably shooting him before he can target me... also, a ranger of 11th level will typically have respectable stealth (my ranger is at +25 base), so unless they're hitting 60+ on perception at the aforementioned encounter distance (rare for spellcasters), they're probably not targeting me.
I will add this - it's in the best interest of archers (and ranged-attackers in general) to emphasize to their GMs the importance of considering the realities of encounter distance, because it's a very distinct advantage which archers NEED to leverage. Yes, distances are reduced in dungeon and underground settings, but this is where tactical placement (and stealth) become important - certainly, in the case of our ranger (who has improved precise shot), there's no reason for him to be anywhere other than well-behind the party; indeed, with very high perception, he can even SCOUT from behind the party. It should be fairly troublesome to target a well-played archer-ranger.
COLOR SPRAY, GLITTERDUST, etc all beg to differ.Can't shoot when you're blinded or stunned or ...I still say Skill Focus (perception) > Iron Will.
My 11th level PFS ranger (with Alertness, Skill Focus (perception) and Eyes of the Eagle) can rock +60 perception in favored terrain - that's a 70 perception check on average.
That means he can reliably pinpoint a stationary invisible target at 300 feet - add in a seeking bow, and that enemy is dead.
Can't shoot what you can't see!
Well, those are typically Fort saves, not Will.
They can beg all they want, but they and YOU should go back and re-read the post you replied to and/or look up the word "typically" in a dictionary.
They can beg all they want, but they and YOU should go back and re-read the post you replied to and/or look up the word "typically" in a dictionary.COLOR SPRAY, GLITTERDUST, etc all beg to differ.Can't shoot when you're blinded or stunned or ...I still say Skill Focus (perception) > Iron Will.
My 11th level PFS ranger (with Alertness, Skill Focus (perception) and Eyes of the Eagle) can rock +60 perception in favored terrain - that's a 70 perception check on average.
That means he can reliably pinpoint a stationary invisible target at 300 feet - add in a seeking bow, and that enemy is dead.
Can't shoot what you can't see!
Well, those are typically Fort saves, not Will.
OK, go ahead, look thru CRB, and find how many spells have blindness or stun. How many are Fort and how many Will?
Color spray is very common, and does both and is Will.
Glitterdust is very common, and is Will.
BLINDNESS/DEAFNESS is not as common, but is Fort.
HOLY SMITE is not as common, and is Will.
Unless you are against a heavens oracle...
Well, we're talking about 11th level characters, so color spray has long since ceased to be a concern.
If it's a heavens oracle with 22+ charisma, that's true, but that's a bit too "outlier" to worry about!
OK, go ahead, look thru CRB, and find how many spells have blindness or stun. How many are Fort and how many Will?
Color spray is very common, and does both and is Will.
Glitterdust is very common, and is Will.
BLINDNESS/DEAFNESS is not as common, but is Fort.
HOLY SMITE is not as common, and is Will.
It strikes me, now that you mention it... I can't even think of a single PFS scenario that I've run in which a caster had glitterdust; it's more commonly blindness (of which I can think of many - I suppose because of casters with a necromancy focus).
Certainly, if I'm running a campaign, my NPC casters will have glitterdust. Curious, that!
(I'm sure there must be some scenarios with conjuration specialists, and I can think of two NPC conjuration specialists in particular, but I've not run them... I don't recall any casting glitterdust. Kind of an oversight.)
Edit: Ah, I just remembered one I ran, in a 3-7, I think... gave the party a good scare with that one. Yes, a tight space!