| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
The rules are quite clear that you cannot cast spells of an inappropriate spell level. However, they aren't so clear about having said spells on your "spells known" list. Is it possible to add a spell to your spellbook or familiar as a "spell known" even though you are unable to cast it?
For FAQ and discussion.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Spellbook and familiar (witch), yes. They both follow the same general procedure and require a Spellcraft roll of 15+spell level. You just can't use them yet.
Spells Copied from Another's Spellbook or a Scroll: A wizard can also add a spell to his book whenever he encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard's spellbook. No matter what the spell's source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings). Next, he must spend 1 hour studying the spell. At the end of the hour, he must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from his specialty school. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into his spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.
Witch's Familiar:
Learn from a Scroll: A witch can use a scroll to teach her familiar a new spell. This process takes 1 hour per level of the spell to be learned, during which time the scroll is burned and its ashes used to create a special brew or powder that is consumed by the familiar. This process destroys the scroll. At the end of this time, the witch must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If the check fails, the process went awry in some way and the spell is not learned, although the scroll is still consumed.
I would say definitely not to the spells known list mainly because of this clause (pulled from the sorcerer class description). Spells known are a fixed number barring certain magic items.
(Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.)
I'm wondering if it's about reducing the DC on magic item creation? Or is this about using scrolls?
The rules are quite clear that you cannot cast spells of an inappropriate spell level. However, they aren't so clear about having said spells on your "spells known" list. Is it possible to add a spell to your spellbook or familiar as a "spell known" even though you are unable to cast it?
For FAQ and discussion.
We had this discussion before. A spell in your spell book is a spell known, but you still can not cast it, and yes you may add any spell in your spellbook. There is no prohibition on that. The same goes for familiars.
I also think it should be possible, assuming that you can make the spell craft roll.
Good way to start up a collection of spells, so you can use your 'free spells' for something else.
No, you have to actually be able to cast the spell to reduce DC.
CIte? As far as I can tell, the relevant rules text is "Most of the time, [spell prerequisites] take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed)."
I'm not even clear what RD means by "Spells Known" in this case. It's usually used for spontaneous casters and there doesn't really seem to be any mechanical use for "spells known" for prepared casters.
Is there some trick here I'm missing?
Well, the simplest question is simply whether I can "learn" a spell "for later." If my first level witch saves the life of a 20th level witch, and she offers me anything my greedy little heart desires, is it possible for her to teach my familiar all of her spells? If I stumble across a wish scroll, can I copy it into my spell book (and thence into my backup spell book, and so on) so that I'm not going to lose it later to a cunning thief?
And my reading of the magic item creation rules is that they use the phrase "spells known" for clearing prerequisites, so the right spells could allow me to create more powerful magical items. Luck blades for all, here we come.
In Magic Item creation for each individual Item type:
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard)
Fair enough.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I was thinking more like "I want to be ready for my three-year journey across the ocean where I might level up several times, so I best make make good use of this six month period of downtime to learn and scribe a bunch of spells in advance."
Essentially, you are ensuring you have the spells you want the moment you level up because they were put into your spellbook previously.
It's not even metagaming, as the character would likely want to keep himself occupied during such a journey, and bringing extra study materials with which to learn new spells is a perfectly logical thing for a wizardly fellow to do.
I hadn't even considered it for item creation.
Every spellcaster has a spells known list, not just spontaneous ones. If I am not mistaken, then (technically speaking) if a wizard EVER scribes a spell into his spellbook, it is from that point forward considered a known spell, even if he loses the spellbook later on. (He won't be able to cast the spell without his spellbook however, so differentiating between the two is most often a moot point, however.)
I'm not even clear what RD means by "Spells Known" in this case. It's usually used for spontaneous casters and there doesn't really seem to be any mechanical use for "spells known" for prepared casters.
Is there some trick here I'm missing?
Prepared casters do "know" spells. Some do not consider that as "spells known". However any spell in a wizard's book is a spell that he knows.
Sorry, my "flavor description" is a bit misleading. All the spells would be scribed into his book prior to leaving on his journey.
His "studying and learning how to properly use them over time" would be him leveling up during his adventures over seas and finally being able to cast them.
The description is literally no different than the assuming that a wizard had been studying the spells he wanted to know prior to his *ping* getting them at level up.
I was thinking more like "I want to be ready for my three-year journey across the ocean where I might level up several times, so I best make make good use of this six month period of downtime to learn and scribe a bunch of spells in advance."
Essentially, you are ensuring you have the spells you want the moment you level up because they were put into your spellbook previously.
It's not even metagaming, as the character would likely want to keep himself occupied during such a journey, and bringing extra study materials with which to learn new spells is a perfectly logical thing for a wizardly fellow to do.
I hadn't even considered it for item creation.
Every spellcaster has a spells known list, not just spontaneous ones. If I am not mistaken, then (technically speaking) if a wizard EVER scribes a spell into his spellbook, it is from that point forward considered a known spell, even if he loses the spellbook later on. (He won't be able to cast the spell without his spellbook however, so differentiating between the two is most often a moot point, however.)
Well actually he can't copy the spell into a new book without another book that has the spell or a scroll so if he loses the book it is just as good as him not knowing it.
Well actually he can't copy the spell into a new book without another book that has the spell or a scroll so if he loses the book it is just as good as him not knowing it.
I found some Core corner cases a few years back where the differentiation mattered.
(I don't remember what they were right now though.)
In any case, it's simple. First the wizard must decipher the spell script in question (see Arcane Magical Writings). After all, if you can't read or understand it, then you aren't going to get very far.
Then, if you have successfully deciphered the spell's script and understand it, then you can learn it (see Spells Copied from Another's Spellbook or a Scroll). If you've successfully learned the spell, you can then write it into your spellbook. (Or not. Note that there is no time limit on when that must be done. You may need to hold off to get scribing supplies first or whatever).
Once you've learned the spell (as above), I'm pretty certain it is on your list of spells known, but you won't be able to cast it until it is actually in your spellbook.
I picture it as knowing the spell (and how to use it), but not yet being able to muster the "arcane focus" or whatever to hold the power of the spell in casting readiness. I recall certain Jack Vance wizard characters who were able to obtain spells, and then spent years accumulating the skill to harness them, though they already know how to do so, on an academic level.
Well actually he can't copy the spell into a new book without another book that has the spell or a scroll so if he loses the book it is just as good as him not knowing it.I was thinking more like "I want to be ready for my three-year journey across the ocean where I might level up several times, so I best make make good use of this six month period of downtime to learn and scribe a bunch of spells in advance."
Essentially, you are ensuring you have the spells you want the moment you level up because they were put into your spellbook previously.
It's not even metagaming, as the character would likely want to keep himself occupied during such a journey, and bringing extra study materials with which to learn new spells is a perfectly logical thing for a wizardly fellow to do.
I hadn't even considered it for item creation.
Every spellcaster has a spells known list, not just spontaneous ones. If I am not mistaken, then (technically speaking) if a wizard EVER scribes a spell into his spellbook, it is from that point forward considered a known spell, even if he loses the spellbook later on. (He won't be able to cast the spell without his spellbook however, so differentiating between the two is most often a moot point, however.)
A wizard can prepare spells that she knows from a borrowed spellbook with some effort, but not so for spells that she does not know. Therefore, there is a distinction between a wizard's known and unknown spells apart from whether they are currently present in the wizard's own spellbook.
|
Another detail that's irked me for a long time. When you capture a spell book, there's no procedure to make the spells "yours". You have to do one of these:
1) Copy all the spells. Maybe even into the same spellbook.
2) Make Spellcraft checks all the time to prepare the captured spells, because you didn't write them. (These checks are pretty easy and you can Take 10 because if the situation is so stressful that you can't Take 10, you also can't prepare spells anyway.)
If you inherit your mentor's spellbook and use it for 10 years, by RAW, you're still using method 2.
---
In 2nd ed, scribing spells was unbelievably expensive. Far from being a good limit on wizard PCs, this actually caused a lot of GM headaches; if there's an enemy wizard, that means there's a spellbook, and that means super-expensive loot. It's hard to have a "budget cap" on the encounter's loot value because those spellbooks are so absurdly expensive.
PF has come a long way, but there are still some vestigial weirdnesses in the spellbook rules.