Hi All!
I was having an argument with my players about how damage reduction works when being applied to critical hits. I know that you roll multiple times according to the multiplier and then add them together, however my players were arguing that DR should not be applied to each damage die. They say that since it is a critical hit, it should be allowed to be added together before DR is applied.
I highly disagree. I do not think that damage should be increased extra if you cannot bypass the DR to exploit the vitals/weakspot in the first place. Just like with a threat confirmation with crits, you can still get in a lucky shot but not do any damage.
I have looked everywhere and can't find a concrete answer to show them. The book says you roll multiple times on a crit and add your bonuses each time. I say that DR is a negative bonus, but they argue it isn't. I understand that rolling the damage multiple dice makes it more of an average damage on a crit than a random burst of a straight multiplier, but if DR is applied first on a straight multiplier before multiplying - then you'd have totally different numbers.
Example:
I crit a skeleton with a longsword with a 14 STR, it has DR 5/Bludgeoning-
Let's assume I roll the dice twice and apply DR afterwards (let's say I roll the same number for ease of math):
(4+2)+(4+2) - 5 = 12-5 = 7
Now, if I apply DR to each die:
(4+2 -5)+(4+2 -5) = 1+1 = 2
Now, if I did straight multiplication:
(4+2) -5, then *2 = 6-5, then *2 = 2
I know the math isn't hard, I am just displaying it to prove my point on how applying DR after doesn't seem to make sense to me.
Sorry for the wall of text, and thanks for any helpful input on this!
Just like with sneak attacks, damage reduction is applied after damage is totaled (for each attack individually), not before.
I disagree with you, but I cannot find evidence for either stance.
PRD wrote: Damage Reduction
Some magic creatures have the supernatural ability to instantly heal damage from weapons or ignore blows altogether as though they were invulnerable.
The numerical part of a creature's damage reduction (or DR) is the amount of damage the creature ignores from normal attacks. Usually, a certain type of weapon can overcome this reduction (see Overcoming DR). This information is separated from the damage reduction number by a slash. For example, DR 5/magic means that a creature takes 5 less points of damage from all weapons that are not magic. If a dash follows the slash, then the damage reduction is effective against any attack that does not ignore damage reduction.
Dr is a fixed value, it is not multiplied on a critical. If you place a attack particularly well (i.e. you score a critical( you have hit a weakness of the target. Playing your way you would penalize creature with low damage as they will never benefit from a critical against creatures with DR.
In the end it is a big bonus for teh PC. I would buy adamantine armor in your game and/or make character with invulnerability.
Stoneskin would be a great spell.
To illustrate Diego Rossi's point, let's take an example of someone with 10 Str.
A normal hit average damage: 1d6+0 = (1+6)/2 + 0 = 3.5 damage
A critical hit average damage: 2d6+0 = ((1+6)/2 + 0)*2 = 7 damage
If the DR counted once:
Normal Hit: 3.5 - 5 = 0 average damage
Critical Hit: 7 - 5 = 2 average damage
If the DR counted twice:
Normal Hit: 3.5 - 10 = 0 average damage
Critical Hit: 7 - 10 = 0 average damage
They have a greater reduction in damage because they scored a critical hit? That doesn't seem logical to me.
DR applies once to an ATTACK. DR is a static value. A person that attacks with a greatsword for 2d6+4 will only have the DR applied once since there is only one strike, whereas a Two Weapon Fighting fighter striking for 1d6+2 would have DR applied twice since they're two different attacks.
EDIT: Oh, you're saying that each die rolled would be reduced by the DR? Then no Two Handed Fighter would want to be enlarged to make their greatsword damage go from 2d6 to 3d6 if they were fighting golems since DR 10 would reduce their damage by more than what their damage increase would be (3.5 more from the extra 1d6 and +3 more damage from having 4 more STR would be reduced by 10, ending up with less damage). DR applies once to an attack, not to each die role. Otherwise DR 10 would completely negate any roll that wasn't a d12 lol.
Also, a greataxe that rolls 1d12 would be much better than a greatsword that rolls 2d6 even though the greatsword has a higher average roll of 7 compared to the greataxe's 6.5
EDIT 2: Here's the answer! "A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together." It says "with all your usual bonuses". Damage reduction is not a bonus it is a property of the creature being attacked, so it would not apply. Once the damage is totaled, then damage reduction is applied.
I'm not saying that each damage die would be applied to DR, but each weapon hit. I am simply saying that I would think that DR would apply initially, then damage that would bypass the DR would be multiplied by the crit.
When a critical hit is made, it is exploiting a weakspot or is a lucky shot. I can make an epic shot against the monster's eyeball, but if I can't initially pierce the hardened membrane, then I would think it would still be ineffective.
Going by the rule in the book, if I remember correctly, it says something like "A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together." One could argue that DR is a negative bonus to the damage, correct?
If it is official that the DR is applied after multiplying damage, then that's the rule and we will go by it. I won't be too surprised, it's not like this is a very realistic system!
I think the idea of damage reduction becoming stronger when you smash the enemy particularly hard is less realistic that having it apply only once. =P The whole critical damage entry only talks about the character and their damage/bonuses. So a debuff to strength would alter their damage bonuses but damage reduction would only apply once you actually "connect" with the enemy, aka only once.
It would be like if a a player attacked a wizard with the Blur spell on them. On a critical confirm they would have to roll 20% miss chance twice.
While you were typing I made 2 edits to my post. Hopefully those were helpful.
DR is taken off the TOTAL damage done for each attack regardless of how many dice are rolled
Op: Sorry, you are wrong. DR only applies once per attack, as stated before in the thread. If you find anything in the rules that says otherwise, let us know. This has been the case since the early days of D&D, so nothing new there.
Crits, sneak attack or damage bonuses sich as Power Attack all help to overcome (but not ignore) DR.
Also, there is no such thing as a negative bonus, there are only bonuses or penalties. For example, a flat-footed PC does still get his Dex penalty to AC if he has less than 10 dex.
If you want a thematic explanation, imagine Smaug the Dragon having DR and Bard the Archer getting a critical hit (weak spot).
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Thanks all for the clarification!
I will add DR after the damage is calculated.
I can get by with these sort of rules in an unrealistic system. The rules are just a bit vague on this.
All fear ... How is subtracting it after all damage is calculated unrealistic?
Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
allfearsalsa wrote: I'm not saying that each damage die would be applied to DR, but each weapon hit. I am simply saying that I would think that DR would apply initially, then damage that would bypass the DR would be multiplied by the crit.
When a critical hit is made, it is exploiting a weakspot or is a lucky shot. I can make an epic shot against the monster's eyeball, but if I can't initially pierce the hardened membrane, then I would think it would still be ineffective.
Going by the rule in the book, if I remember correctly, it says something like "A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together." One could argue that DR is a negative bonus to the damage, correct?
If it is official that the DR is applied after multiplying damage, then that's the rule and we will go by it. I won't be too surprised, it's not like this is a very realistic system!
A critical hit is simply a single good hit, not multiple hits.. DR is applied to it once and once only, when all the damage is totaled up, as it would be for any other strike.
Often times the only answer to damage reduction is to hit it harder.
A critical hit = hit it harder.
Recent threads in Rules Questions
|
