A question was raised about Hand of the Apprentice and how it would function with a light shield.
Specifics of the character: 9 levels fighter, 1 level generalist wizard.
relevant feats: Shield Slam(and all Prerequisites)
All quotes pulled from the paizo PRD.
Hand of the Apprentice allows: "As a standard action, you can make a single attack using a melee weapon at a range of 30 feet." and "This ability cannot be used to perform a combat maneuver."
Light shield states: "You can bash an opponent with a light shield... Used this way, a light shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon."
Shield Slam states: "Any opponents hit by your shield bash are also hit with a free bull rush attack"
Given that the shield is treated as a "martial bludgeoning weapon" when you attack, it should be able to be used with the Hand of the Apprentice as it allows you to "make a single attack using a melee weapon".
My main concern is the other line in the Hand of the Apprentice, I would, by raw, not be performing a combat maneuver, I would be making an attack. The feat would be providing the combat maneuver free with the attack.
So my question is: Can Hand of the Apprentice be used to receive the benefit of Shield Slam?
At first you cannot use the ability to perform combat maneuvers. The rules are very clear here. They say ability and not attack. The only thing you can to with this ability is an attack. One attack, no follow up actions like combat maneuvers, fighting styles or tricks.
Secondly you use an ability to make the attack with a range of 30ft. So the weapon is not directly under your control and due to this fact you cannot use 'your' special fighting abilities.
Thirdly a shield is strapped to your arm. By RAW the quickest way to remove a shield from your arm is a move action. A weapon can be dropped to the ground with a free action.
Quote: You cause your melee weapon to fly from your grasp .. Some GMS may argue that you dont hold a shield in your grasp. It is strapped to your arm and the use with HoA is not possible.
No is my answer.
Eridan wrote: At first you cannot use the ability to perform combat maneuvers. The rules are very clear here. They say ability and not attack. The only thing you can to with this ability is an attack. One attack, no follow up actions like combat maneuvers, fighting styles or tricks. The ability allows you a single attack with a melee, as quoted above. Shield slam does not say it allows a follow up bull rush. It states, when you hit with your shield, they are also hit with a bull rush. I do not believe your statement that "the rules are very clear here" is accurate.
Eridan wrote:
Secondly you use an ability to make the attack with a range of 30ft. So the weapon is not directly under your control and due to this fact you cannot use 'your' special fighting abilities.
Again, hit with shield = free bull rush, no further control, action, or intention is needed.
Eridan wrote:
Thirdly a shield is strapped to your arm. By RAW the quickest way to remove a shield from your arm is a move action. A weapon can be dropped to the ground with a free action.
Quote: You cause your melee weapon to fly from your grasp .. Some GMS may argue that you dont hold a shield in your grasp. It is strapped to your arm and the use with HoA is not possible.
No is my answer.
This part appears to be the sticky wicket.
Quote: Ready or Drop a Shield
Strapping a shield to your arm to gain its shield bonus to your AC, or unstrapping and dropping a shield so you can use your shield hand for another purpose, requires a move action. If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you can ready or drop a shield as a free action combined with a regular move.
Dropping a carried (but not worn) shield is a free action.
But at that point, I should be able to use the shield as a weapon, unstrapped, and simply forgo the shield AC.
A Shield is a weapon.
Feats, spells, and abilities that can be used with weapons, can be used with Shields.
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Use it as a weapon with HoA -> Yes
Combat Maneuver with HoA -> No
Bull rush is a combat maneuver. It comes from 'Shield Slam', is a follow up action and it is a combat maneuver. HoA forbids combat maneuver. The rules are clear.
@Tindalen
You use this combination and the last GM said that is not possibile. Now you search the boards for someone that is your opinion. Correct?
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True.
Hand of Apprentice explicitly denies Combat Maneuvers.
Specific versus General.
As you noted, the sticky wicket is that you can't use Hand of the Apprentice (or Acolyte fyi) on something strapped to your arm, it has to be in your grasp. Hitting with a shield 'in your grasp', is not performing a shield slam, it's using an improvised weapon. So the whole feat chain falls apart at that point.
A shield is not an improvised weapon.
A shield is a weapon.
@blackbloodtroll , What Majuba is saying is that while using a shield strapped to your arm is a weapon. HoA requires you to grasp a weapon to use it. If you take just hold a shield in your hand to use HoA, it is no longer a weapon per se, but an improvised weapon, as your are not equipping a shield, but just holding a shield in your hand.
A clearer example would be armor spikes. If you are wearing an armor with armor spikes, they are a weapon. If you just hold your spiked armor in your hand, it is not a weapon, but an improvised weapon.
Eridan wrote: @Tindalen
You use this combination and the last GM said that is not possibile. Now you search the boards for someone that is your opinion. Correct?
Nope, just hit level 10, have not leveled up for PFS yet and was looking for dips of fun stuff since I have everything I want for my character. The hand of the apprentice came up as something that seemed fun, so before I took it, I figured I would research and determine if it could or could not work with shield slam. A multi-star GM in my area said that it is possible it could go either way because of the wording. So, I went to the boards to see if we were missing anything.
The thing I see that we were missing was the strapped to the arm part, but that can be dealt with simply enough.
Your argument for not allowing shield slam is that shield slam requires an additional action to bull rush, which the wording explicitly rejects.
Majuba wrote: Hitting with a shield 'in your grasp', is not performing a shield slam, it's using an improvised weapon. "An unstrapped shield is an improvised weapon" is simply not written anywhere, and as such that argument will be ignored.
So, unless a compelling argument, backed up by text, errata(heh), FAQ, or official spokesperson is provided. I will simply talk to the GM before hand and allow them to decide. Flinging my dwarven waraxe with hand of the apprentice is awesome enough as it is.
Ok, just to simplify the possible arguments. Let's assume the shield being used is a Light Throwing Shield.
Quote: Throwing Shield: This shield is designed for throwing and has specially designed straps allowing you to unclasp and throw it as a free action. Tower shields cannot be throwing shields. Neither a shield's enhancement bonus to AC nor its shield spikes apply on your attack or damage rolls. At this point there can be no disagreement that Hand of the Apprentice can be used with the shield, and we are back to...
Quote: Any opponents hit by your shield bash are also hit with a free bull rush attack What is a shield bash?
Edited to add PRD of throwing shield.
The Shield can also have the Throwing enchantment.
It does not, at any time, change into, or count as, an improvised weapon.
And I think I found the last piece. So putting it all together...
Quote: Throwing Shield: This shield is designed for throwing and has specially designed straps allowing you to unclasp and throw it as a free action. A throwing shield can be used with Hand of the Apprentice.
Quote: Shield Spikes: ... Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack. an attack with a spiked shield is a shield bash
Quote: Hand of the Apprentice: ...As a standard action, you can make a single attack using a melee weapon at a range of 30 feet. Using Hand of the Apprentice with a spiked light throwing shield is a shield bash attack.
Quote: Shield Slam: ...Any opponents hit by your shield bash are also hit with a free bull rush attack.
Hand of the Apprentice: ...This ability cannot be used to perform a combat maneuver.
I will agree that "rules as intended" this probably should not work, but I will suggest that "rules as written" it is legal as a combat maneuver is not being performed, a shield bash attack is being performed and the act of hitting the target with the shield bash attack provides the bulrush. Much like a hydraulic push would.
Whether or not the shield can be undone as a free aciton or whether it counts as an improvised weapons has no bearing to me.
Hand of the Apprentice specifically says it can't be used to perform combat maneuvers. Bull rush is a combat maneuver. Hand of the Apprentice cannot be used to do it. Specific trumps general.
Pathfinder Maps Subscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote: True.
Hand of Apprentice explicitly denies Combat Maneuvers.
Specific versus General.
^ This.
Claxon wrote: Hand of the Apprentice specifically says it can't be used to perform combat maneuvers. Bull rush is a combat maneuver. Hand of the Apprentice cannot be used to do it. Specific trumps general. So your assumption is that, if a combat maneuver would happen, no matter how it would happen, then it is not allowed with Hand of the Apprentice.
I can understand that point of view, and it was the reason I was asking the question in the first place.
The other possible assumption is that the word "perform" in the Hand of the Apprentice is key. Since shield slam provides a bull rush on a hit, one is not performing a bull rush.
Using hand of the apprentice with a whip, you would have to perform a trip maneuver and it would not be allowed. The trip does not come automatically with the hit. That is where I am seeing the difference, shield slam's bull rush comes automatically with the hit.
As I said though, I understand your point, and I could see both sides I have just presented which is why I was asking the question.
Tindalen wrote: Majuba wrote: Hitting with a shield 'in your grasp', is not performing a shield slam, it's using an improvised weapon. "An unstrapped shield is an improvised weapon" is simply not written anywhere, and as such that argument will be ignored. Ignore at your own peril.
PRD wrote: Shield, Heavy; Wooden or Steel: You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A heavy shield is so heavy that you can't use your shield hand for anything else.
Wooden or Steel: Wooden and steel shields offer the same basic protection, though they respond differently to spells and effects.
Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield. See “shield, heavy” on Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next turn. An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
If you don't have your shield strapped to your arm, you can't make a shield bash attack.
A throwing shield works with Hand of the Apprentice - but isn't a shield bash. A throwing shield has it's own weapon entry, and does not have a Shield Bash entry. It also specifically says you cannot use shield spikes, which are specifically for bashing.
Tindalen wrote: Flinging my dwarven waraxe with hand of the apprentice is awesome enough as it is. So you are asking this as a sort of rule exercise / English language analysis?
Back to topic:
If this is for PFS, I would advise against trying the ideal of shield slam + HoA out. The reason is simply that you will likely face table variation. Given the feat and possibility gold commitment, it would be sad if a GM rules against it.
I think perform part covers any application of a combat manoeuvre. Otherwise people can argue that if you can use HoA with a Mancatcher as well, since the word "Perform" does not appear in the first part of Mancatcher. And once grappled, the target would have to be move to an adjacent square as per the grappling rules.
If Paizo has to lay out each power or spell with a cover all list of faqs, each book would be 100x long.
Secane wrote: So you are asking this as a sort of rule exercise / English language analysis? English language analysis? Not at all, we are dealing with pathfinder rules, the english language is not relevant.
Rules exercise? I suppose, but also attempting to add versatility to my 20' move dwarf in a can. Versatility is the king of table top RPG, a sword and board fighter is not.
Secane wrote: Back to topic:
If this is for PFS, I would advise against trying the ideal of shield slam + HoA out. The reason is simply that you will likely face table variation. Given the feat and possibility gold commitment, it would be sad if a GM rules against it.
I agree, hence the search for convincing arguments in either direction.
Secane wrote: I think perform part covers any application of a combat manoeuvre. Otherwise people can argue that if you can use HoA with a Mancatcher as well, since the word "Perform" does not appear in the first part of Mancatcher. And once grappled, the target would have to be move to an adjacent square as per the grappling rules. The mancatcher is called out specifically as a combat maneuver and not an attack, though it could have been done better.
Quote: Make a touch attack to hit an opponent and a combat maneuver check to grapple him (without the –4 penalty for not having two hands free); success means you and the target are grappled. touch attack + combat maneuver, a combat maneuver role is made, a combat maneuver role is not made with shield slam. is the exact sequence used for ALL grapple combat maneuvers that was 3.5 rules. The mancatcher also has a 1d2 damage that does not get applied in the touch attack and requires a standard attack to deal damage.
The Mancatcher applies the grapple condition because you are holding on to one end of the devices and restricting the movement of the target.
Shield slam provides a bull rush because of the force of the impact from the attack made with the shield.
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