Coup de grâce clarification

[illyume]

What math, exactly, is followed if I coup de grâce something with an attack that does 1d4-3 damage? 2d4-6, deal one point nonlethal if the total is 0 or less?

And if I do fail to do any lethal damage, what's the fort save, if any?

[Archaeik]

Quote:

You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.

afaik, nonlethal damage is still damage

consider the case of delivering a CdG with a Merciful weapon, or a sap. The damage is nonlethal, but the save would still be based on damage dealt.

[illyume]

So in that case, basically a 13 in 16 chance of 1 point nonlethal with DC 11 fort save, 2 in 16 chance of 1 point lethal with a dc 11 fort save, and a 1 in 16 chance of 2 points lethal with DC 12 fort save?

[HangarFlying]

On one hand, it seems extreme that one could die from a CDG having been dealt 1 pt of nonlethal damage. On the other hand, there are real life stories in which people have died from what would otherwise seem an innocuous injury. Failing such a Fort save might be reflective of such a fluke injury.

Personally, immediate death from a CDG from nonlethal damage defies my internal sense of consistency and logic. I would probably rule that at most, it would immediately drop the target's hp to -1 and it gets the "dying" condition.

[FLite]

I thought if you failed a CdG from non lethal you were knocked unconsious, not dead?

[Thewms]

James Jacobs wrote:

Yes, you can do a non-lethal coup de grace; that's the way you do a knockout blow.

Ask James Jacobs anything

[Claxon]

James isn't necessarily a rules guy, but I'd definitely go with his answer on this. Allowing a non-lethal CdG to actually kill someone just seems silly. Allowing it to render them unconscious, total worthwhile and good way of handling it.

Not an actual rule, but better than the alternative in my opinion.

[FLite]

I think in the absence of other citations, I (were I GMing) would call this a "Gap in the rules" and use my discretion, which in this case means non-lethal coup de gras knocks you unconsious if you fail your save.

[Thewms]

FLite wrote:

I think in the absence of other citations, I (were I GMing) would call this a "Gap in the rules" and use my discretion, which in this case means non-lethal coup de gras knocks you unconsious if you fail your save.

+1

I would rule it the same in my games

[Snowleopard]

FLite wrote:

I think in the absence of other citations, I (were I GMing) would call this a "Gap in the rules" and use my discretion, which in this case means non-lethal coup de gras knocks you unconsious if you fail your save.

I disagree as the rules clearly state the function of the Coupe de Grace.

And to give an example of non-lethal damage actually having the effect of a Coupe de Grace: Hit someone on the throat real hard and you might cruch his windpipe wich is non-lethal damage on it's own. However since you have a good chance of obstructing the victim's airway the victim might die of asfixiation. A good example of a coup de grace using non-lethal damage.

I know, I know, Pathfinder and reality do not mix, but some level of reality is in rules and I like to think that this is applied from reality.