Reach out and touch someone (or, problems with touch spells and multiple targets)

[Kryptik]

Hey gang. My group and I got on the subject of touch spells, and, well, long story short there appear to be some discrepancies and general vaguery with the application of touch spells on multiple subjects, and the action cost of applying them.

The Combat section of the CRB has this to say about touch spells:

"You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action.

This is also reflected in the action chart, as it says it is a full round action to "Use a touch spell on up to six friends," and that doing so provokes an AoO.

The conclusion reached by some at this point was that you could, for example, cast the original Bull's Strength (which normally is limited to "creature touched") on up to 6 friends as a full round action. Additionally, this makes it seem that, if you have a spell that allows multiple targets touched as part of the original spell (such as Water Breathing), the act of casting the spell and applying it to up to 6 allies consumes a full round. Ok, I can work with that I guess.

The Magic section of the CRB has this to say about touch spells:

"Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch up to 6 willing targets as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell. If the spell allows you to touch targets over multiple rounds, touching 6 creatures is a full-round action."

This raises a couple more issues. This seems to contradict the apparent intent of the Combat section rules. The Magic section seems to say that if you have a spell that normally targets multiple creatures via touch, you can touch up to 6 allies as part of the casting of the spell, which is a standard action.

Furthermore, it goes on to say that if the spell allows you to touch over multiple rounds, touching 6 is a full round action. Now, I don't know which spells allow you touch over multiple rounds, but the sheer action cost of that last sentence doesn't jive with what they said just before. Are you meaning to tell me that I can cast a spell and as part of that casting touch 6 people, all as a standard, but doing nothing but touching 6 people is a full round? That doesn't make sense.
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To my mind, there are three conflicting interpretations here, and I will try to elucidate them below as clearly as I can. For our purposes, only the first option assumes you can trade up action economy to let you affect multiple allies with a spell that normally is only "creature touched."

Here they are:

"A spell with a target of "creature touched" can be expanded to include up to 6 allies instead of one, by consuming a full round rather than a standard. Spells that affect multiple targets touched include the touching of those targets as part of the standard action to cast the spell."

OR

"When casting a spell that allows multiple creatures touched, the act of casting that spell and applying it to up to 6 allies consumes a full round action."

OR

"When casting a spell that allows multiple creatures touched, the act of casting that spell and applying it to up to 6 allies consumes a standard action, but if you can somehow touch over multiple rounds then the act of touching 6 allies consumes a full round."

My personal take is that the first interpretation is too strong, and largely neuters the Communal spell line. Why have it a higher spell level and divide duration, when you can seemingly use just a full round to do the same thing and not divide the duration?

So, brave Pathfinders, which is it?

[Nefreet]

No.

Bull's Strength has only a single target: a creature touched. You can't cast it on more than one creature, no matter what action you try to spend doing so.

Your options for single-target touch spells are these:

1) cast the spell as a standard action and deliver it as a free action in the same round, or

2) cast the spell as a standard action, and hold the charge until a later round, at which point you may spend a standard action again to touch your target.

Both of these options are spelled out under the rules for touch spells.

Your options for multiple-target touch spells are these:

1) cast the spell as a standard action and deliver it as a free action to up to 6 willing targets in the same round (which typically means they must all be adjacent to you at that time), or

2) cast the spell as a standard action and hold the charge until the following round (or later). Allies rush up to you. Then you spend a full round touching them all at the same time, rather than spending 6 standard actions to do so.

[Kryptik]

So you're saying, cast as standard, hold the charge, move. Allies move to you. Next round you spend the whole round touching them.

Why, then, would you do this instead of...just moving forward in that 2nd round and casting it normally (in which you can touch all of them)?

[Nefreet]

How often are your groups that organized?

[Nefreet]

Also, you may have instances where your CL is high enough to effect more than 6 allies.

So, round 1, touch your 6 adjacent allies, and hold the charge, round 2 they get replaced by another set, and you touch them.

[Kryptik]

Nefreet wrote:

How often are your groups that organized?

All of the time, actually.

[Kryptik]

Nefreet wrote:

Also, you may have instances where your CL is high enough to effect more than 6 allies.

So, round 1, touch your 6 adjacent allies, and hold the charge, round 2 they get replaced by another set, and you touch them.

What spells don't discharge when you issue the touch? Because I was under the impression the spell would be used up once you touched the 6.

[Paulicus]

This is why I love the reach spell metamagic feat. Goes great with communal resist energy.

Edit- it also avoids grouping everyone together for hostile area spells.

Edit edit- I was under the impression that you couldn't touch and hold the charge for more allies as well, even if your CL allows for more targets.

[Tinner01]

Kryptik wrote:

"When casting a spell that allows multiple creatures touched, the act of casting that spell and applying it to up to 6 allies consumes a standard action, but if you can somehow touch over multiple rounds then the act of touching 6 allies consumes a full round."

this seems most likely to me.

If a multiple-target (let's just say communal) spell is discharged in the same round as cast, you can touch up 6 creatures as a free action. (just like a single-target spell; the reason Communal spells are at a higher level)

If a communal spell is discharged in a later round, you can touch up to 6 creatures as a full-round action. i think this is where "touch over multiple rounds" may be interpreted. since a single-target takes a standard to discharge in a later round (from free to standard), rather than saying it takes 6 standards for a communal spell (for 6 creatures) it instead makes sense to become a full-round (from standard to full).

but then it begs a few more clarifications:

1) because a touch attack can be discharged as a free action in the same round as being cast, can it be used with an AoO? free action to discharge and then your normal melee attack

2) how do deal with "target: one creature/level" spells (i.e. water walk, chill touch)? are these just the exception to the *default* 6 creatures?

3) i can wrap my head around most of this except
"Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can't hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell."

without this everything else would make sense

[gyggles]

Kryptik wrote:

So you're saying, cast as standard, hold the charge, move. Allies move to you. Next round you spend the whole round touching them.

Why, then, would you do this instead of...just moving forward in that 2nd round and casting it normally (in which you can touch all of them)?

YOu would also hold the charge if you wanted to avoid casting defensibly. Round 1 cast/hold and move into a good position to allow your allies to gather. Round 2 you can release charge without fear of Attack of Ops or casting defensibly.

[Robert Young]

It might be easier to address the issue if you use specific examples of what is causing a problem. Remember, you cannot hold the charge for some touch spells (those that require touching multiple targets as part of casting the spell).

The only trouble I see is with the Communal type spells, which were introduced after the touch spell rules in the CRB. The question there is how do you treat them for holding the charge purposes when the number of touches is essentially limited only by duration, and how to administer their effect when you haven't completed your total number of desired touches.