Proof that Jar Jar was by far the most charismatic character in the entire Star Wars franchise!Or, more precisely, your ability to obtain the desired reaction.This part is key, Not-Lemmy. Jar-Jar doesn't seem to want people to hate him—he's just incapable of not being annoying. So he's either uncharismatic or more charismatic than we can possibly imagine, a chessmaster who has deceived us all.
Mind=Blown!
1) "Dump Stats" are an artifact of point buy stat generation systems. Unless you disallow lowering for bonus points, they'll always be a part of it.
That's all you have to do. Dont give points back for lower stats. If they really WANT that 7 for RP purpose, then fine.
I will bet a nickel all those "I did it for RPing reason" low CHA PCs suddenly disappear.
1) "Dump Stats" are an artifact of point buy stat generation systems. Unless you disallow lowering for bonus points, they'll always be a part of it.That's all you have to do. Dont give points back for lower stats. If they really WANT that 7 for RP purpose, then fine.
I will bet a nickel all those "I did it for RPing reason" low CHA PCs suddenly disappear.
Eh, I'd still dump charisma for a character that didn't need it. I happen to like playing a character with a little social anxiety.
Also wouldn't this nerf your NPCs? They use point buy too.
1) "Dump Stats" are an artifact of point buy stat generation systems. Unless you disallow lowering for bonus points, they'll always be a part of it.That's all you have to do. Dont give points back for lower stats. If they really WANT that 7 for RP purpose, then fine.
I will bet a nickel all those "I did it for RPing reason" low CHA PCs suddenly disappear.
Eh, I'd still dump charisma for a character that didn't need it. I happen to like playing a character with a little social anxiety.
Also wouldn't this nerf your NPCs? They use point buy too.
Why nerf? I just give a few more points, so no one but die hard min-maxers feel the NEED to dump.
And sure, some people like a little disad when they play, I do too.
I like 5D6, keep 3, reroll 1s.
For extra fun, make them in order. When you do that, allow seven rolls, dumping one roll.
Somehow it's more fun to play a 18 stat (or a 8!) when it is honestly rolled.
I was allowed to do that in a 3.5 game and picked all 15's, just for fun.
I dunno, 4d6 drop lowest works for my table, we just reroll a lot until the GM thinks the stat roll is acceptable.
Or, more precisely, your ability to obtain the desired reaction.This part is key, Not-Lemmy. Jar-Jar doesn't seem to want people to hate him—he's just incapable of not being annoying. So he's either uncharismatic or more charismatic than we can possibly imagine, a chessmaster who has deceived us all.
But here's the thing... Despite him being extremely annoying (due to his incompetence, not because of failed social interactions), he still ends up friends with the main characters and the chief of his village. Later on, he even becomes a senator! Jar Jar's Cha score is probably mediocre Cha or slightly below average, but not abysmal.
Also, nitpick: I can deny that Hitler had a strong Charisma score. The guy just got a small but violently dedicated base that allowed him to push around the rest. Don't forget, the guy lost his election. Hard. Hindenburg just decided he wanted Hitler on his side after getting elected, which, uh, kinda backfired.
And yet, he convinced lots of people to follow him into war, and was even elected "Person of the Year" by Time magazine.
Then, again... I too was Time's Person of the Year, back in 2006.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I dunno, 4d6 drop lowest works for my table, we just reroll a lot until the GM thinks the stat roll is acceptable.
isnt that just rolling until you achieve stat array?
If the stat is the worst stat then it is the worst stat. Some stat will always be less useful for someone.
In PF, you don't need to put a skill point into every skill at level 1. You get the +3 Class Skill bonus at all levels you put your first skill point into it.
In PF, I like to max most of my skills, but leave 1 skill point per level to dabble in.
No 137ben that isn't "dumping". You can't dump skills... if you COULD buy negative levels in skills to get more levels in the skills you wanted then THAT would be dumping skills.
For example, 137ben, no one would say you were dumping a stat in a point buy if you left it at ten.
Speak for yourself. You're not investing anything into it, that's dumping by my standards.
For example, 137ben, no one would say you were dumping a stat in a point buy if you left it at ten.Speak for yourself. You're not investing anything into it, that's dumping by my standards.
On that note, @RDM42 would it still be dumping (in your opinion) if the system maths was adjusted so that you couldn't go below 10 but a 10 is mathematically equivalent to what a 7 is now?
If you aren't adjusting the score at all, regardless of the legitimacy or not of dumping, I don't see how you are dumping. Dumping implies purposely crippling one ability score to raise another or multiple others. If you aren't lowering a score you aren't doing that.For example, 137ben, no one would say you were dumping a stat in a point buy if you left it at ten.Speak for yourself. You're not investing anything into it, that's dumping by my standards.On that note, @RDM42 would it still be dumping (in your opinion) if the system maths was adjusted so that you couldn't go below 10 but a 10 is mathematically equivalent to what a 7 is now?
Character stats come in two categories, invested and dumped. +0 and below make up the dumped category while +1 and above fall into the invested category.
Character stats come in two categories, invested and dumped. +0 and below make up the dumped category while +1 and above fall into the invested category.If you aren't adjusting the score at all, regardless of the legitimacy or not of dumping, I don't see how you are dumping. Dumping implies purposely crippling one ability score to raise another or multiple others. If you aren't lowering a score you aren't doing that.For example, 137ben, no one would say you were dumping a stat in a point buy if you left it at ten.Speak for yourself. You're not investing anything into it, that's dumping by my standards.On that note, @RDM42 would it still be dumping (in your opinion) if the system maths was adjusted so that you couldn't go below 10 but a 10 is mathematically equivalent to what a 7 is now?
You have a really strange definition of "dumping".
i have simply taken to giving an array of 18,16,14,12,10,8 and adjusting encounters upward slightly.
Well what the f+!& am I supposed to do? Give +0 its own category? F#** that wasteful s**#, the less categories there are the better. Since it's clearly not investing it goes right into the dumping category.
No 137ben that isn't "dumping". You can't dump skills... if you COULD buy negative levels in skills to get more levels in the skills you wanted then THAT would be dumping skills.
For example, 137ben, no one would say you were dumping a stat in a point buy if you left it at ten.So it's just a matter of what you call the "starting" score?
How would you react if someone didn't put any points into an ability score using 3.5 point-buy?
How would we react with rolling 3d6 in order and where "elf" is a class?
That's a different game.
In PATHFINDER (the game we are talking about) taking no points in a skill isnt dumping nor is having a 10 as a Stat.
The issue that everybody seems to forget is, Pathfinder is inherently unfair with regards to stats. Fighters, Barbarians, Wizards and Sorcerers? They need 1 or 2 high stats, that's IT. A Ranger, Inquisitor, Hunter, or other skill monkey type character? You literally need high scores in every stat except Charisma. Problem is you never get enough points to have a bonus in every stat, so guess what? Charisma gets dumped.
All you judgmental types are probably playing Wizards and have no clue how difficult it is to play a MAD character without dumping a particular stat. Play an Inquisitor or Monk sometime, that'll get you folks of your high horse REAL fast.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I dont get you kids and dumping these days...3D6 down the line gets no respect I tell ya!
The issue that everybody seems to forget is, Pathfinder is inherently unfair with regards to stats. Fighters, Barbarians, Wizards and Sorcerers? They need 1 or 2 high stats, that's IT. A Ranger, Inquisitor, Hunter, or other skill monkey type character? You literally need high scores in every stat except Charisma. Problem is you never get enough points to have a bonus in every stat, so guess what? Charisma gets dumped.
All you judgmental types are probably playing Wizards and have no clue how difficult it is to play a MAD character without dumping a particular stat. Play an Inquisitor or Monk sometime, that'll get you folks of your high horse REAL fast.
Inquisitor and other skill based classes are my favorites and I never dump for extra points.
Inquisitor doesnt need much dex. Nor Wis. Nor Int. 12s are fine and then a little more in Wis as you level.
20 pt buy
str 15+2 race=17. 10pts +1 @4th= 18.
Dex: 12= 2
Con14= 5
Int 12= 2
Wis 13= 3 +1 @ 8, 12, 16,
cha 10.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm playing an Inquisitor now as well, and respectfully I must disagree. Dex is critically important; Inquisitors can't wear heavy armor, and they need it for many skills including Stealth, Disable Device, Acrobatics, etc. Wisdom is critically important, Strength is critically important (for a melee build), and you need bonuses in Con and Int. Cha is the only stat you can safely ignore.
Monk is pretty much the same way.
Compare that to a Wizard, they need one stat; Int. Definitely unequal.
If the stat is the worst stat then it is the worst stat. Some stat will always be less useful for someone.I'm always curious how the people who freak out over "dump stats" deal with skill points. Skills in Pathfinder are even more oriented towards point-buy than ability scores (the core rules don't provide a "roll for skills" option, and point-buy continues past first level). Moreover, unless you start with an insanely high intelligence score, you have to "dump" some skills. If you put the lowest score (0 ranks) into a skill, you have more points to spend on other skills.
Do the people who freak out over "dump stats" (or, more specifically, "getting extra points for dumping") apply the same standard to all stats, or just ability scores? If they ARE actually concerned about "dump stats" and not just "dump ability scores," how do those people get through first level without enough skill points to put one rank in every skill?
From an earlier topic(same one) a while back the I brought up how rolling for stats still leads to giving the lowest number to the least usable stat, and asking basically how is that any different from point buy doing the same thing.
Basically it is not about the numbers, but the principle of the matter. Many feel like it is gaming the system, and the person is "rollplaying", and they don't like it.
I don't get it either. Personally, if I had a problem with dumping due to point buy, I would just hand out stat arrays. That way everyone has the same numbers to work with.
PS: It is about "dump ability scores".
So I have a question, what do anti-stat dumpers feel about NPCs with dump stats? Given your average NPC has a 15 point buy...you get where Im going.
So I have a question, what do anti-stat dumpers feel about NPCs with dump stats? Given your average NPC has a 15 point buy...you get where Im going.
well, diplomacy is ineffective against npcs, so...
So I have a question, what do anti-stat dumpers feel about NPCs with dump stats? Given your average NPC has a 15 point buy...you get where Im going.
If you go directly by the book they use a stat array. The NPC's with PC classes get the better of the two arrays.
I do think that something like "they are not PC's, so it's not the same" would be their line of reasoning if they actually use point buy for NPC's.
Or, more precisely, your ability to obtain the desired reaction.This part is key, Not-Lemmy. Jar-Jar doesn't seem to want people to hate him—he's just incapable of not being annoying. So he's either uncharismatic or more charismatic than we can possibly imagine, a chessmaster who has deceived us all.But here's the thing... Despite him being extremely annoying (due to his incompetence, not because of failed social interactions), he still ends up friends with the main characters and the chief of his village. Later on, he even becomes a senator! Jar Jar's Cha score is probably mediocre Cha or slightly below average, but not abysmal.
Also, nitpick: I can deny that Hitler had a strong Charisma score. The guy just got a small but violently dedicated base that allowed him to push around the rest. Don't forget, the guy lost his election. Hard. Hindenburg just decided he wanted Hitler on his side after getting elected, which, uh, kinda backfired.And yet, he convinced lots of people to follow him into war, and was even elected "Person of the Year" by Time magazine.
Then, again... I too was Time's Person of the Year, back in 2006.
Well, a lot of the Western Hitler-hype in the 30's was because Hitler was seen as a bulwark against the commies. Until we started working with the commies. And then we became enemies again, until we cooled relations, and now we're maybe frenemies?
20th-century geopolitics was like a bad sitcom, now that I think about it.
So I have a question, what do anti-stat dumpers feel about NPCs with dump stats? Given your average NPC has a 15 point buy...you get where Im going.If you go directly by the book they use a stat array. The NPC's with PC classes get the better of the two arrays.
I do think that something like "they are not PC's, so it's not the same" would be their line of reasoning if they actually use point buy for NPC's.
Alright, lemme rephrase. The average heroic NPC has a point buy of 15. And how is it not the same as a PC dumping?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 is a long way from 18, 14, 7, 7, 7, 7 or whatever a properly dumped wizard ends up with.
Most MegaMunchkin Wizards will have at least a 20 INT post racial.
You could try negotiating. All of my primary spellcasters have a 17 instead of 18 preracial as that frees up a lot of points which can eliminate the need for dumping if done cleverly. You won't start off with a +5 but you can boost it in four levels, and with things like helms you'll be pretty on par with the Mega Munchkins.
I have a thought for you guys do you think there is a way to make all stats more desirable for every character so that even though the fighter wants a good strength con, and dex; int wis char still have reason to be tempting to him? i mean con is already there literally no one wants to nor should dump con
15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 is a long way from 18, 14, 7, 7, 7, 7 or whatever a properly dumped wizard ends up with.
...why would you even suggest that?! That's two defensive stats you are hard dumping, at least! Just...ow, that's eye burn.
A properly dumped wizard would hard dump STR and CHA to 7 which are useless unless you use charm spells or are going the EK route, and they would soft dump wis to 10 or maybe 8 if they're feeling ballsy. After that the point amount would be thrown to INT, DEX, and CON, which are kinda important to wizards.
So your average NPC has one less dumped stat than your average optimized SAD caster, though they only soft dump rather than hard dump. So what your reasoning for not punishing them as well?
In my view, a wizard needs good int, con, dex and wis, in that order. Dumping stats down to 7 usually bites you. Even a really bad strength score makes you hugely vulnerable to str damage. I find dumping a problem, usually because those who do it then come whining about, say, taking strength damage. Further, it skews the already save DC/saving throw calculation even further. The heroic array for NPCs is pretty good, though.
If you want to live dangerously you could leave CON or DEX at 10 and use tactics and spells to protect yourself. Too high risk for me, but I hear of other players pulling it off.
I have a problem when making characters, which is Intelligence. All my characters just have to have a good Intelligence for some reason. I felt terrible rolling up a character with just a 10 Intelligence.
Eh, wizards are rarely targeted by will saves from what I've seen. They can afford to dump wis a tiny bit...assuming they go straight wizard. The only time you'd see it is if the GM decides to go with hard ode and pull s~+$ like spellcrash and feeblemind.
And yeah, they go down like a weenie if you hit them with strength damage, but you have to actually hit them first. Between mirror image, displacement, and sacks of meat melee classes getting in the way that's no small order...then again my GM has a huge arcane bias so the lack of that showing up might just be her coddling the sorcerer.
And you don't have to tell me about saving throws, ugh, people know just how much my flame oracle has to fight to keep up with the kitsune sorcerer with how much I b*$%* about it here. If it weren't for her I would have put my +2 into CON for more hit points so I wouldn't taste dirt every time a lightning bolt was aimed at me, rargleblargef%&+fullarcanecasters!
If you want to hurt an arcane caster seriously, go feeblemind. It is not uncommon in spell lists, it has a serious chance of succeeding, and it nullifies them. I would go so far as to call it a major weakness of wizards. A bad Will save, or even a less than stellar one, is ALWAYS a serious weakness. In a wizard, it is even worse than in a martial, since the wizard can dish out so much worse than the martial. And hitting a wizard with a ray of enfeeblement isn't actually much of a problem. See, mirror image and displacement are not easy to keep up every fight, what with 1 minute and 1 round per level durations.
As a GM, save or die spells like feeblemind or dominate person are too harsh for my tastes. It's one roll to sit someone out of the fight, woo, fun. I'd rather debuff them to high hell by stacking sickened, shaken, fatigue, curses, etc. so they can writhe and struggle trying to roll a 20 or something. Note at the same time the bosses buff themselves up. I might even throw in a life oracle for one boss fight. I AM A SUPPORT NUT WHO HAS BEEN ALLOWED TO GM AND THIS IS A MISTAKE MY PLAYERS WILL RUE FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIIIIIIIFE!
...ahem. This is why I shouldn't post at 4AM.
I just saw the hyper part of your name come out there^^^
Nevertheless. If you ignore the weaknesses of a class, of course they will dominate. The wizard is certainly not short on weaknesses, and a player who chooses to play a wizard also chooses to have their weaknesses. Fair is fair.