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True, but that starts getting to the point where it's not so much an Iroran Paladin, but a Bloodrager with a Paladin dip. Not that that's a bad thing, necessarily.
I did just realize that they only get the claws while bloodraging, which leaves me much less impressed, though it's still good.
More like Paladin with a Bloodrager dip. It isn't any more of a dip then the Sohei monk6/PallyX, its just a different playstyle.
Also, with the Archaeologist dip, then you want to consider adding a feat[Lingering Performance], and a trait[Fate's Favored] to the mix.
Yeah, I noted the trait already in my post. The Lingering Performance is a given =D. Thank you for mentioning it, though. I've built many an Archaeologist; one of my favorite archetypes.
I'll have to update the guide with this stuff soon enough. Add an Uncanny Dodge subsection to the "other things to consider" part.
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I think this "thing" is going to be one big blasphemy against the "thou shalt not multiclass" doctrine of PF anyway. Since we're not taking spellcasting all that seriously, there's little reason not to dip our fingers in here and there.
I'm fairly okay with claws that only extend during rage; it's kinda like a Wolverine thing where they only come out if his mood swings.
For style though, I mainly prefer the Celestial variant because it's "cleaner". It would be spectacular if there was a more Law-oriented bloodline though. I mean, celestial sort of fits Irori, but something more Lawful than Good would've been even better.
The Archaeologist is interesting too, because it also gives you proficiency in the Whip. And you can comfortably wield a whip in one hand, and use the other for a temple sword, or just as a free hand to pick up stuff/cast spells. The whip meanwhile gives you nice maneuver options against non-adjacent enemies.
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To bring up yet another point: what would be a good Code?
In PFS, being able to at least fib a little bit can be very useful. You've got good Charisma and Diplomacy is a class skill. But when you sweettalk someone, occasionally there's stuff you'd rather... "not say". So personally I'd like to stay away from the Not Lying cliche. Another point in favor of it is that ISWG talks about how Vudrani tell such outrageous stories about the Impossible Kingdoms that most people assume they make it all up. But that's seen as a charming cultural peculiarity, not as a moral failure.
I suppose some ascetic/health related rules might be in order; vegetarianism is common among Irori's faithful. Staying away from intoxicating drinks might be fitting as well.
Unlike the main branch of the Iroran faith, you're Good as well as Lawful. But the focus might lie on the Lawful part more than the traditional Good.
Irori is fairly noninterventionist though; what kind of things should a paladin really Do? I suppose countering the two gods Irori mostly quarrels with would be in order. Being against Lamashtu is pretty politically correct; being anti-Asmodean can be a bit trickier.
ALSO: to what degree does this archetype override traditional paladin restrictions/code? It's important to have clear and unambiguous notes on this, to quickly settle potential arguments with a (PFS) GM rather than having a drawn-out conflict that ruins the evening.
As far as the code concerned, I would think there would be a few things all Iroran Paladins would share:
* Do not lead others down false paths. This is a big no-no in the theology of Irori. This would exclude some lying, but not all of it.
* Do not despair of your pursuit of perfection. Irori is big on the "you'll screw up, but you must keep trying"
* Do not accept imperfection for the sake of expedience. Or something along those lines. That's perhaps a bit too general.
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Yes, bending the truth may be permissible at times (like infiltrating Cheliax), but swindling is already very much not acceptable (also it shows an unhealthy focus on material wealth), and roping people into a false cult would be a mortal sin.
Material wealth - I like the idea of asceticism, but it's just not quite viable in a game that's so equipment-powered as PF. A general prohibition against possessions wouldn't work. I suppose you could forbid stuff that "weighs you down" though; perhaps a commitment to keep no more than you can carry?
I'd also prefer to shy away from items that become a crutch. So personally I'd avoid the Agile amulet; because I'd be helpless without it. If you lose your armor that's annoying, but it's much more replaceable. Likewise, although you've maybe sunk quite a bit of money into a magic weapon, it's ultimately interchangeable. But you can't really switch the Agile amulet for anything else.
The Champion of Irori isn't allowed to have companion creatures and suchlike. I suppose that might make a decent tenet; you shouldn't become too dependent on other people nor let them become too dependent on you. Ideally, you do not adventure with the same people all the time so that you don't grow to rely on them in particular. (Easy enough in PFS.)
What to do about the following though?
What to do about the following though?
Super bloodthirsty fellow PCs
Missions requiring you to basically steal stuff, or commit other crimes
Enemies who wish to surrender, even though that would be really inconvenient, or when you really don't trust them
Irori's code says that each individual follows their own path, and what is correct for them may not be correct for others. This alone mitigates a lot of what otherwise might be problems.
The second one is probably the most problematic; I'm not sure there is an easy answer.
For the third, many worshipers of Irori have a reincarnation belief, so death is less final. This makes killing less problematic when it is necessary, but still not necessarily desirable.
This might be of significance making Gnomes a decent choice for the Paladin.
I like it; flavorful, too. I'll add something about that.
Just how much of the classic paladin "mission statement" still applies to the Iroran?
Is he still expected to go out there and oppose evil, or is he more focused on seeking perfection and being a generally decent guy on the side?
I would imagine they would seek self perfection by going against evil. I mean, they seek to find new challenges in order to test themselves and find new directions they can take their training, and many evil individuals believe in a 'might makes right' mentality, so they are not usually going to be push overs.
There is canonically a gladiatorial arena/temple of Irori called the Iorium in Absalom, which grew out of betting matches on monks' sparring sessions, and grew into a huge stadium due to promises of a temple and ferocious beasts to test themselves on. So the devotion to bloody combat is not exactly anything new. Deciding to go against demon armies and undead hordes simply allows them to do this while still being with the typical 'mission statement'.
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Just how much of the classic paladin "mission statement" still applies to the Iroran?
Is he still expected to go out there and oppose evil, or is he more focused on seeking perfection and being a generally decent guy on the side?
I see them as Kwai Chang Caine, walking the earth and doing good deeds while trying to seek perfection in themselves.
I see them as Kwai Chang Caine, walking the earth and doing good deeds while trying to seek perfection in themselves.
I absolutely can see him as a Iroran Paladin; though I'm not sure all Iroran Paladins would need to be like that. Is Kwai Chang Caine able to lie in some circumstances, or not at all?
I do like the idea, as suggested by lemeres, that they would be combining their perfection of themselves with fighting against evil. I mean, first of all, one of their major abilities is called "Personal Challenge", so it's kind of clear that they are meant to be seeking perfection, at least in part, by testing their abilities against foes. Now, this could be done against any foe, but for a Paladin, it makes sense that you're seeking out evil for the most part.
I really like the idea of the temple sword & whip version suggested by Ascalaphus. I'm trying to decide whether it would be better to go Sohei 1 / Iroran Paladin 4 / Archaeologist+, or Sohei 1 / Archaeologist 2 / Paladin +.
Also, whether or not it would be worth taking the Whip Mastery feats. The only "must have" feat would be Lingering Performance, I think.
You can only make a performance combat check when you "have a chance to affect the crowd's attitude", so it's not going to be useable in most situations. At least, not for GMs who actually read the performance combat rules.
How are you getting that you can threaten with a scorpion whip?
Ah, I think you're looking at older versions of the scorpion whip, which was changed. In Ultimate Equipment, which is the version useable for PFS, it can be used as a lethal weapon with no reach, OR as a normal whip if you are proficient with whips. In the latter case, it would gain reach, but not threaten.
This might be of significance making Gnomes a decent choice for the Paladin.
Oh, and Osyluth Guile would synergize particularly well with that. Don't know how thematic it would be, but there's nothing in the feat description or function that suggests it's actually evil/devilish.
Also, there's a feat called performing combatant.
Fair, but that becomes a very feat intensive chain itself. Weapon Focus, Dazzling Display, Performing Combatant, Mocking Dance. Not saying it's not worth it, but something to consider. I'll have to read up more on mocking dance.
The more I look at this Gnome with Bewildering Koan idea, the more neat/powerful I think it is. Normally it sucks for a monk since they want to dump charisma; I assume it's more aimed an ninja normally.
In this case, I think the best build is to start with Paladin (Iroran Paladin) 4 / Bard (Archaeologist) 2. The archaeologist gets you the Uncanny Dodge, Archaeologist's Luck, and bluff as a class skill (saving you a trait, since you really want bluff as a class skill for this build). Not 100% sure whether the dip in Sohei is worth it here; you're going to be using your ki for the Koan, not for the extra flurry attacks, so it's not as crucial. Something to consider.
Either way, after that, I figure the build could either go the rest of the way Paladin, or most of the rest of the way Archaeologist.
Feats are going to be Lingering Performance, Bewildering Koan, Possibly Dodge&Osyluth Guile (if you dip in Sohei, you can get Dodge as a bonus feat), probably Skill Focus (Bluff).
Oh, and Archaeologist's Luck itself boosts Bewildering Koan :)
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The more I look at this Gnome with Bewildering Koan idea, the more neat/powerful I think it is. Normally it sucks for a monk since they want to dump charisma; I assume it's more aimed an ninja normally.
It's designed for Monks, there was no Ninja when Gnomes of Golarion was released. GoG has a lot of feats for gnomes that are of questionable value. Bewildering Koan is the best one in the book. It was just made assuming Gnomes wouldn't completely dump CHA, or at least have skills assigned to bluff.
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As much as I hate Pageant of the Peacock, I have to admit that a Gnomish Archaeologist 4 / Iroran Paladin 4 with a maxed Bluff, Bewildering Koan, and Pageant of the Peacock would be pretty amazing. (using Gnomish favored class bonus to get more bardic music uses per day)
I'd never build such a combination myself, but have to admit that it's good.
Why 15 point? Home game, I guess?
Are you thinking more an oracle with a few paladin levels, or a paladin with a few oracle levels?
It's designed for Monks, there was no Ninja when Gnomes of Golarion was released. GoG has a lot of feats for gnomes that are of questionable value. Bewildering Koan is the best one in the book. It was just made assuming Gnomes wouldn't completely dump CHA, or at least have skills assigned to bluff.
I would imagine that GoG was written with players that wanted to play gnomes in mind. So, given that spirit, I would imagine 'practicality' was not too high a concern in writing it.
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I'm staying away from the Scorpion Whip because it's just too unclear how it works. And that's a turn-off for PFS.
I hadn't even thought of the whip mastery line, which is odd, because I've been trying to think of a way to use those for a while now.
Normally I'd get stymied because they take so long to come online, so you can't really build around them because you're spending many levels before your build actually does its thing.
In this case though, the whip is more of an added bonus; you have lots of other cool stuff to do as well. And you only need the first two feats of the chain anyway.
I've been thinking about it, and the whip chain works best for a balanced Bard/Paladin split-type build. The Archaeologist gets rogue talents, which you can use for at least one of the required feats, for example. I'm picturing this as a build that never ends up using unarmed strikes; temple sword and whip all the way.
Man, I have my new favorite version of the bewildering koan build, which is not actually a gnome. It's a half-elf, who uses Racial heritage to get Bewildering Koan. The Adaptability is used to get Skill Focus (Bluff), and the multitalented makes it an ideal choice for a build that splits fairly evenly between two classes.
He doesn't dip into Sohei; instead he'll primarily use a two-hander, and use his ki pool to fuel Bewildering Koan rather than flurries.
He rolls a mean knowledge, thanks to Bardic Knowledge and Deific Obedience (Irori), though that's not a crucial part of the build.
Here's some notes on the build at level 10; I'll likely add a fuller example of this to the examples part of the guide. Criticisms, as always, welcomed.
Bard (Archaeologist) 6 / Paladin (Iroran Paladin) 4
Half-Elf
+2 Strength
Humanoid (elf, human)
30 foot speed.
Languages: Common, Elven, Undercommon (bonus)
Elven Immunities: Immune to sleep, +2 will saves v. enchantment.
Adaptibility: Skill Focus (Bluff)
Wary: +1 racial bonus on Sense Motive & Bluff
Low-light vision
Elf-Blood: Both Elf & Human
Multi-talented (Bard & Paladin)
Str 15 Dex 12 Con 12 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 15
Str 17 Dex 12 Con 12 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 15
lvls: Str 18 Dex 12 Con 12 Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 16
Favored Class Bonuses: For Paladin, +4 hp. For bard, first three levels are +1 bardic round per day (half-elf). Next three are extra spells known (human).
Traits: Fate's Favored, Magical Knack (Bard)
Likely Progression (first 10 levels):
Paladin 1. FEAT: Racial Heritage (Gnome). Personal Trial. Aura of Law. Sense Perfection.
Paladin 2. Divine Grace. Lay on Hands.
Bard 1. FEAT: Lingering Performance, Bardic Knowledge, Archaeologist's Luck +1
Paladin 3. Divine Health. Mercy.
Paladin 4. Ki Pool. Personal Trial +2, 2/day. FEAT: Bewildering Koan
Bard 2. Uncanny Dodge. Clever explorer.
Bard 3. FEAT: Deific Obedience (Irori), Trap Sense
Bard 4. Rogue Talent: ???
Bard 5. FEAT: ???, Archaeologist's Luck +2, Lore Mastery 1/day
Bard 6. Evasion. Clever explorer: Disarm magical traps.
Elf can add HP to lay on hands. That's probably better than the +1 HP.
Good call.
Does the archetype actually require you to worship Irori?
What happens if you stop worshiping Irori?
It does not explicitly say that you have to worship Irori; I believe the author considered it so obvious that it didn't need to be said.
Were I running a game, in PFS or at home, I would not allow a player to play it without worshiping Irori. Since there are no explicit rules about stopping worshiping Irori, I would treat it like a Dawnflower Dervish: You revert to a standard Paladin if you stop worshiping Irori. That's going to vary a lot based on GM, though, I imagine.
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Hmm. The Koan is quite strong. But it's taking the build in a radically different direction. I'm thinking the koan might be more fun on a ninja actually (who also draw Ki from Charisma, but at level 2).
PF has done a fairly decent job of keeping out powers that cause stunlock. Well. Now a gnome ninja koantosser is going on my list of things to play some time...
Just a thought: the Archaelogist with Bewildering Koan might be rather starved for swift actions. With Lingering performance you only need to use your swift action every third round of combat but that does limit the usefulness of bewildering Koan. Then again you do not have unlimited Ki anyways.
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As I see it, there's actually fierce competition for Swift actions:
- Personal Trial
- Ki abilities
- Arcane Strike (if you have it)
- Archeologist's Luck (mitigated by Lingering Performance)
- Koan
In addition, I'm not sure if the ability to penetrate the DR of your Personal Trial takes a Swift action. It doesn't say so, and it would combine poorly with the Trial also taking a Swift to activate.
On the other hand, it's in the middle of the Iroran's Ki Pool ability, which states , and the monk ability states that for its regular powers that cost Ki.
Yes, swift actions are something to consider; that's one of the reasons I wouldn't consider give Arcane Strike to the Bewildering Archaeologist build, as I'm calling it, in addition to the fact that it does not have a full caster level. But I don't think that it's too bad witohhut Arcane Strike. Essentially you're only using Ki for the bewildering koan, and rarely the DR penetration (you'll be using a physical weapon, so DR will not be as big an issue as it would be for unarmed). Personal Trial is only 2/day, luck is once every three rounds, and Koan is also very limited per day. There will certainly be times when you want to use more than one in a round, but it won't be a constant issue.
I agree that you could do the Bewildering Koan with a Ninja effectively as well, and that it would have more uses. I'm not sure, however, that a Ninja could afford to pump charisma as high, since it is more MAD. Additionally, since it is such a limited use ability, the build needs to be successful at other things. The Koan build suggested above is very useful at a large number of things, from melee combat to knowledge to traps to magical support casting; more so than a ninja can be (I believe so, anyway, I'm not a ninja expert). Finally, this build essentially uses Ki *only* for the Koan, whereas the Ninja has several abilities they would want to use it for.
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Not sure how good this is for an Iroran Paladin, but The Bronze Gong would help with ki-starvation, if you could afford taking a level of Cleric or Life Oracle.
Oh, cool. Thanks!
Added the note about the Gnome; going to try and add in all the new stuff discussed to the guide today.
Not sure how good this is for an Iroran Paladin, but The Bronze Gong would help with ki-starvation, if you could afford taking a level of Cleric or Life Oracle.
I think that would be a good thing to have if you wanted to combine it with an Oradin type build. I don't think that it would be worth dipping only for the channel, though.
You may as well take the Ki Channel feat then.
Here's hoping the devs forget that feat and make a "channel energy for Ki" monk somewhere down the line.
With only a dip for a 1d6 channel, Ki Channel wouldn't do anything that the gong doesn't already do, I don't think (correct me if I'm wrong). Better to spend 100gp, than spend a feat.
Not sure how good this is for an Iroran Paladin, but The Bronze Gong would help with ki-starvation, if you could afford taking a level of Cleric or Life Oracle.I think that would be a good thing to have if you wanted to combine it with an Oradin type build. I don't think that it would be worth dipping only for the channel, though.
Though, actually, thinking about it, a Cleric (Separatist) one level dip could be very useful, in combination with that gong. Cleric spell list, further saves boost, Grab the Travel domain via separatist for +10 base speed and Agile Feet (limited uses, since based on wisdom), and one of Irori's domains/inquisitions (none stand out, at a glance, except knowledge if you want to be the knowledge guy in combo with Deific Obedience). And, via the gong, an extra 3+CHA ki per day! There's also probably some useful variant channeling you can get.
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Though, actually, thinking about it, a Cleric (Separatist) one level dip could be very useful, in combination with that gong. Cleric spell list, further saves boost, Grab the Travel domain via separatist for +10 base speed and Agile Feet (limited uses, since based on wisdom), and one of Irori's domains/inquisitions (none stand out, at a glance, except knowledge if you want to be the knowledge guy in combo with Deific Obedience). And, via the gong, an extra 3+CHA ki per day! There's also probably some useful variant channeling you can get.Not sure how good this is for an Iroran Paladin, but The Bronze Gong would help with ki-starvation, if you could afford taking a level of Cleric or Life Oracle.I think that would be a good thing to have if you wanted to combine it with an Oradin type build. I don't think that it would be worth dipping only for the channel, though.
The Strength domain is good, as is the Fist subdomain from Champions of Balance. Fist has True Strike as a spell and the Wooden Fist plant domain power.
Ah, yes. The big advantage of the Strength domain is the 'enlarge person', though you'd only get one casting a day for 1 minute. The power is pretty useless with a dip, since it is only +1 for 1 round, and takes a standard action to use.
The fist domain's wooden fist, is similarly limited, in terms of being only +1 to damage with unarmed strike for 2 or 3 rounds per day. Better than the Strength domain's power, though, since it's a free action to use.
So, I'd say the Strength domain has the better spell, but the Fist subdomain has the more useful power (though neither power is great).
Knowledge [Memory] combined with Deific Obedience would make the character a very viable knowledge guy on the side; the domain gives all knowledges as class skills, and the subdomain will let him retry knowledge checks a few times per day.