BASED Jiggy! That's exactly the kind of unchaining we need!
@Jiggy
I agree completly, it really doesn't make sense that the non-magical classes are so chained by could be realistically achieved or not.
@Puna'chong
That is a very well made and thought out post sir, good job. I also like the example of Avatar, which is something that story writers and game designers should really pay attention to. In a world where magical abilities are common place, you can pretty much guarantee that people with out these magical powers will find ways to fight against them or defend themselves against them. The only example we have of this now when it comes to the fighter is Disruptive, Spellbreaker and Ray Shield(Which has a ridiculous feat tax, considering its limits).
Note that improved Will is not a combat feat. A properly unchained Fighter will need to basically rewrite the feat schema. Feats will be one thing for other classes, but for fighters, they'll be a whole bunch of other stuff.
Giving fighters rewards for high stats is bad design. It just makes them even more MAD...and they've already got a need for Str/Con/Dex/Wis. Why would you add one more to the Mix?
What fighters need is stat INDEPENDENCE, and feat SYNERGY and SCALING.
Someone said they wanted weapon spec with all weapons.
No, no you don't.
You want to be able to say your fighter is a swordsman. THE Swordsman. Weapon spec lets you say that.
What you want is weapon training, but with the weapons that you choose to use...not weapons groups of weapons you never employ.
Someone said they wanted fighters able to improve weapons. They can already do that with a feat. What they want is the ability to improve their favorite weapon, THEIR weapon, without having to pay gold for it. This is akin to what soulknives get, and magi and paladins with their weapon bonds...their weapons simply get better as they level. No cost to it...only a fighter should get it all the time.
F/20 capstone is not a capstone. It's the last feat in the weapon spec chain!!!! It applies to one weapon!!! The fighter's capstone should apply to EVERYTHING.
The fighter needs feats that are not combat feats to reflect the fact that they train for dealing with non-combat roles as PART of preparing for combat. Any feat that deals with a combat, saving throw, movement, endurance, and skills with potential applications thereof should be eligible for a fighter.
And fighters need a unique shtick, something no other class can take away from them. I nominate TRAINING.
Fighters should be able to train themselves and train others. Traintraintrain should be the defining characteristic of being a fighter. You don't bury your nose in books and mumble magic, you don't wear out knee pads in prayer, you don't plot and plan and pontificate and skulk and entertain.
You are a fighter. You get ready to fight.
==+Aelryinth
Favorite this post if you believe the Fighter should not get an Unchained variant.
What I can't comprehend is why the Fighter did not get included into this books by default.
WAIT!
They might have unchained feats which solves the fighter's problems completely.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Favorite this post if you believe the Fighter should not get an Unchained variant.What I can't comprehend is why the Fighter did not get included into this books by default.
WAIT!
They might have unchained feats which solves the fighter's problems completely.
That would be wonderful if it's true honestly. I don't believe that's what's happening, but if it is then I'd be happy.
Though unfortunately them fixing feats just makes everyone else better too. If every martial gets better then Fighters are still at the bottom.
Also it doesn't help the fact that Barbarians have a better skill list and more skill points.
It won't solve bravery unless it's a SPeCTACTULAR feat. Which I'm imagining it is not.
I have no problems with fighters being able to grab Improved Will with feats. but it's not a combat feat. They'd need a new class of feats they could grab, and you'd have to restrict it to a specific category or it would just end up abused again.
For me, Bravery represents the mental hardiness of the veteran soldier, champion athelete, and lifelong competitor. It synergizes with lots of feats that have to do with discipline, training, practice, and competitiveness, the drive and desire to overcome.
Fear is just one aspect of that. I.e. Iron Will Technique (Save booster feat, Training feat), Fighter adds his Bravery to the bonus provided by Iron Will.
Improved Saving Throws: The Fighter may reroll a saving throw a number of times a day equal to his Bravery bonus. He may reroll any save for which he has the Booster Technique. He may reroll any particular saving throw only once.
He may take this feat up to three times. The second time he adds two more daily rerolls. The third time he adds three.
=================
Weapon Training: The problem with Weapon training is its just 'Weapon Proficiency' in disguise.
Getting skill in all heavy swords is nigh on useless. You'll have a favorite weapon, you'll likely spec and focus and imp crit it, and what do you care that you can use a longsword like your greatsword? I mean, jeez, you don't even get to one hand a bastard sword with a weapon group.
In short, Weapon Groups are kind of dumb.
Secondly, they get less and less effective as you level and pick up new weapons. Oi, I'm now worse with these weapons because I trained with them at a higher level then I am with stuff at a lower level...the exact OPPOSITE of what a class feature is supposed to give you (oh, I took this high level rage power, and it sucks because I didn't grab it at level 10 instead of 16).
Come ON>.
Fighter/1. Pick your primary weapon (The one you declare you will be master of...I am an archer. I am a swordsman. I am an axeman). Pick a second weapon to supplement the first weapon.
If you wield the second weapon at the same time as the first (i.e. off hand) it has the same Weapon Focus/Spec/feat bonuses as your primary weapon.
You do +1 dmg with your Primary Weapons.
These two weapons form the start of your primary weapons group.
Every time your Bravery increases, add another weapon of your choice to your primary weapons group, representing your acknowledgement of needing to cover holes in your offense.
At level 4, your Primary Weapon Group bonus increases to +1/+1. You add a weapon group that includes your Primary Weapon into your Primary Weapon Group. The bonus increases every 4 levels, topping out at +5 at level 20 (yay, another capstone!).
At level 8, pick a Secondary WEapon Group of your choice. All Weapons in this group have a training bonus 1 less then your Primary Weapon Group. At levels 12, 16 and 20, add additional weapon groups to your Secondary Weapon group.
====Now you have as Primary weapons the weapons you USE. Picked level by level as you go up in level and need them.
You have a damage bonus at level 1.
Dual wielders don't have to double up on feats. You can now actually wield long and short, sword and axe, etc, without being penalized...you know, like a Ranger or barbarian can.
And all your secondary weapons you are equally good with, but not as good as your primaries. Because, you practice with your secondaries, but your primaries are the ones you actually USE.
And that's how you do Weapon Training and Weapon Groups in a balanced world.
==Aelryinth
Favorite this post if you believe the Fighter should not get an Unchained variant.What I can't comprehend is why the Fighter did not get included into this books by default.
WAIT!
They might have unchained feats which solves the fighter's problems completely.
That would be wonderful if it's true honestly. I don't believe that's what's happening, but if it is then I'd be happy.
Though unfortunately them fixing feats just makes everyone else better too. If every martial gets better then Fighters are still at the bottom.
Also it doesn't help the fact that Barbarians have a better skill list and more skill points.
Idk, well designed feats can make have 2x the amount worth it.
I can't think the devs thought the barbar needed a rework and not the fighter, but the fighter is his feats. If they are reworking martials in general it effects the fighter the most, who is all things martial.
They need fighter feats that work with fighter class abilities. Anything else will just be stolen and used by someone else that has actual scaling class abilities instead of half-strength ones.
I mean, eesh, they had the gall to come right out and say the Slayer does more damage then the Fighter, plus has more skill points...and they gave him more because he couldn't do his ambushes and didn't have enough.
Uh huh.
==Aelryinth
They need fighter feats that work with fighter class abilities. Anything else will just be stolen and used by someone else that has actual scaling class abilities instead of half-strength ones.
I mean, eesh, they had the gall to come right out and say the Slayer does more damage then the Fighter, plus has more skill points...and they gave him more because he couldn't do his ambushes and didn't have enough.
Uh huh.
==Aelryinth
Just to add to this, the wonderufl Alexander Augunas on his Everyman Gaming blog did an entry on the Fighter vs the Slayer. Turns out, the Slayer beats the Fighter in damage all the way up until the Fighter gets his capstone, after which the Fighter finally jumps ahead in damage.
True... But did he take Gloves of Dueling into account? Those things are a pretty big DPR booster.
True... But did he take Gloves of Dueling into account? Those things are a pretty big DPR booster.
No, it was a raw test because he wanted to see the base before any items were used. Especially since we don't have a 'Slayer specific' items in the game yet. However, with Gloves of Dueling, the Fighter gets only +1 to hit over the Slayer, while the Slayer still has 11 more damage over the Fighter.
They need fighter feats that work with fighter class abilities. Anything else will just be stolen and used by someone else that has actual scaling class abilities instead of half-strength ones.
I mean, eesh, they had the gall to come right out and say the Slayer does more damage then the Fighter, plus has more skill points...and they gave him more because he couldn't do his ambushes and didn't have enough.
Uh huh.
==Aelryinth
If the feats are good enough. Having 2x of them is a massive advantage. It doesn't matter if other classes can take them too.
Everyone else's bonus feats are fixed. Right now that means they grab the feats they wanted anyways, but that no longer has to be the case. Meaning 10 bonus feats could be THE important class feature. More so than even weapon training (sadly right now bonus feats are third behind armor training which is a nice AC boost).
One thing I'd love is the fighter to be able to "size up" the opponents. I think it makes sense thematically, as a fighter, he'd know how to spot weak points or general strengths about whatever they are killing. Maybe something like...
Know Your Enemy: At X level, the fighter can use any knowledge skill untrained for the purposes of identifying a monster's abilities and weaknesses. At Y level, the fighter can add their fighter level to any Knowledge check made for the purposes of identifying a monster's abilities and weaknesses.
Something like that.
I don’t want to be the gloomy guy, but I think this thread is pretty pointless.
Hey there folks,
Couple of points to clean up the discussion and squash some speculation...
1. This book is not a second edition of Pathfinder. Nor is it intended to be a "rules light" or "essentials" version of Pathfinder.
2. This book is designed to let the design team play with the rules in a way that we have not been able to before, revisiting some old designs and tinkering with parts of the game that are otherwise considered "sacred" parts of the system.
3. There will not be a play test for this book. We have been getting years of play test feedback on many of the rules we will be examining in this book. Think of it more as an additional design step as opposed to a "start from scratch" design process.
4. There will not be new iconics for the classes. We will get some new art for them, but we will not be inventing new iconics.
5. There is a veritable mountain of other exciting things in this book that are just too "green" for me to talk about at this time. Expect to hear a lot more in the coming months.
Glad to see folks are excited about this book. We are certainly very excited to bring it to you!
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
My bold.
One more thread, or ten more threads won’t change their minds.
Me I really just want five things.
- More skills
- more and better fighter only feats
- better saves.
- A more flexible fighter, less specialization. Cut of the feat chains
- Feats or/and abilities that let the fighter do crazy stuff.
I’m not really interested in boosting the DPR.
I guess a couple of more things could be stated such as ignoring some prereqs and other stuff, but although inconvenient I really don’t find them to be that big of a problem.
I think something that can help with the fighter's flexibility is, along with a resource-point system, swappable bonus feats. I think this is a great idea and makes the fighter more able to be the king of feats he seems to mechanically want to be, but I think it should be done in a way that doesn't just throw the book (perhaps literally) at newer players like the upcoming Brawler's class feature seems to do. This would definitely go a long way towards unchaining the class
I'd propose that when a fighter gets bonus feats at even-levels these come in the form of specific pools of three feats. The fighter would start each day getting to slot in a feat after waking up, and throughout the day can switch around the feats in a particular pool as a swift action using his resource points. Here's how I'd envision it working in tandem with an effective resource pool:
My level 2 fighter on leveling up gains his first pool. I already have Power Attack, so I go with Cleave, Blind-Fight, and Iron Will. Now, at the beginning of the day I choose Iron Will because it's a good all-around help. Later on, I find myself fighting goblins and choose to use a point of my pool swapping to Cleave. Then, when we pursue them into their cave, I use another point to go into Blind-Fight to even the odds in case I drop my torch.
At 4th level my fighter gets a different set of 3 feats. These only swap between themselves, much like my 2nd level pool. Best part, though, is the fighter would count as having all these feats for the sake of prerequisites. That helps out on those weak gateway feats that are really just a tax before you get to the good stuff. I also would love to see fighter-only feats that are multiple feats in one, like Improved Two-Weapon Fighting + Two-Weapon Defense, Improved Critical + Critical Focus, etc.
I'd say the resource pool would come at a rate something like 1/2 level + WIS (WIS being the fighter's ability to maintain his training under pressure), and it could be nice to let it do things like mimic feats, such as Vital Strike, that aren't great for a feat slot but would be great as an X/day ability. Spend a point, make a standard action attack, double your weapon dice. Fun, adaptable, and a good way for the fighter to expand his options in lieu of a rage or skipping prerequisites all over the place.
I'm sitting in a train station (lot of traveling the past couple days) so I'm mostly just spitballing here and probably typing too much, but it sounds fun to me and is definitely something I may try to homebrew up!
I am inclined to agree Zark, but it's worth at least trying. It's possible that since the Fighter was so eclipsed by other martials that the devs forgot it existed ;)
Even if the Fighter isn't in the book, maybe there will be revamped feats or maybe something similar to Arcane Discoveries for wizards, but for bonus combat feats.
If they don't address the fighter in any sort of way I'd be pretty sad, but I'm willing to try and provide feedback in the hopes that some dev is on the same wavelength with us.
I am inclined to agree Zark, but it's worth at least trying. It's possible that since the Fighter was so eclipsed by other martials that the devs forgot it existed.
Even if the Fighter isn't in the book, maybe there will be revamped feats or maybe something similar to Arcane Discoveries for wizards, but for bonus combat feats.
If they don't address the fighter in any sort of way I'd be pretty sad, but I'm willing to try and provide feedback in the hopes that some dev is on the same wavelength with us.
I sincerely doubt that the devs, whom constantly trawl the forums and interact with their fans on a nigh-daily basis has forgotten about the fighter. Hard to make that judgement, Especially since we don't know much else about the book. But if the monk and rogue are being looked at, then chances are good that the fighter will be looked at in some manner.
That was a joke, but I added a winky face to show it more obviously :)
The sentences following it describe what I think would be easy for the devs to do if they don't decide to revamp the fighter. While such changes would not be as preferable as a real revamp, they would at least make the Fighter a significantly less terrible choice when compared to a Ranger, Paladin, Slayer, Brawler, Samurai, Cavalier, Bloodrager, revamped Monk (here's hoping), or Barbarian.
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That was a joke, but I added a winky face to show it more obviously :)
The sentences following it describe what I think would be easy for the devs to do if they don't decide to revamp the fighter. While such changes would not be as preferable as a real revamp, they would at least make the Fighter a significantly less terrible choice when compared to a Ranger, Paladin, Slayer, Brawler, Samurai, Cavalier, Bloodrager, revamped Monk (here's hoping), or Barbarian.
Winky face does indeed help. Me sleeping also helps :p
It just gets so tiresome to see an opportunity to improve the fighter with Pathfinder Unchained and it getting wasted on snide jabs at Paizo and the standard "fighter cant have nice things" pity-me-party comments. When instead there could be more ideas that could be thrown in to help the fighter. It's clear from the description of Pathfinder Unchained that they really want to take the feedback from the last six years and do the things people have been want them to do to the mechanics. I'd rather see our creative energies turned to brainstorming and ideas, rather than the standard self-serving cynical tripe that usually floods these threads.
Not saying you are doing that, of course. I just mean in general. Though this thread has been good so far.
Sleepy time now. The sun is up which means I go down. :p
I don’t want to be the gloomy guy, but I think this thread is pretty pointless.
Hey there folks,
Couple of points to clean up the discussion and squash some speculation...
1. This book is not a second edition of Pathfinder. Nor is it intended to be a "rules light" or "essentials" version of Pathfinder.
2. This book is designed to let the design team play with the rules in a way that we have not been able to before, revisiting some old designs and tinkering with parts of the game that are otherwise considered "sacred" parts of the system.
3. There will not be a play test for this book. We have been getting years of play test feedback on many of the rules we will be examining in this book. Think of it more as an additional design step as opposed to a "start from scratch" design process.
4. There will not be new iconics for the classes. We will get some new art for them, but we will not be inventing new iconics.
5. There is a veritable mountain of other exciting things in this book that are just too "green" for me to talk about at this time. Expect to hear a lot more in the coming months.
Glad to see folks are excited about this book. We are certainly very excited to bring it to you!
Jason Bulmahn
Lead DesignerMy bold.
One more thread, or ten more threads won’t change their minds.
Me I really just want five things.
- More skills
- more and better fighter only feats
- better saves.
- A more flexible fighter, less specialization. Cut of the feat chains
- Feats or/and abilities that let the fighter do crazy stuff.I’m not really interested in boosting the DPR.
I guess a couple of more things could be stated such as ignoring some prereqs and other stuff, but although inconvenient I really don’t find them to be that big of a problem.
No playtest doesn't necessarily mean they still won't be looking at feedback.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
They been getting feedback for years and yet UK only contained 1 fighter feat but more than 100 wizard spells. :(
I would pic a Fighter over a Cavalier(or Samurai) any day of the week but the Ranger is more fun;)
When I imagine an Unchained Fighter, I imagine two things.
-First, I imagine a series of trappings that the Fighter could put on herself in preparation for the day. This might be a suite of combat abilities to make the most of her weapon, the terrain, her teammates abilities, etc. Mostly I would like to see these as a set of combat and/or out of combat options - not just +x bonuses.
-Additionally, I think that a Fighter could have the ability to set and change the tempo of combat. Imagine if a Fighter had a contintency or two set up, like a perpetual readied action. The first person in combat who hits me is getting smacked in the face. If a spellcaster targets me with a spell, I'm charging him/her. The fighter would be able to determine if this was still a good tactical decision, but it would create a chance for more the Fighter taking more actions and directing the flow in combat a bit more. I think that would make them unique.
Design Manager
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I would pic a Fighter over a Cavalier(or Samurai) any day of the week but the Ranger is more fun;)
I'm the opposite. Unless I'm sitting down to play a PFS game and never intend to go past 3rd level, Fighter is pretty much at the bottom of my list. Cavalier brings so much more to the party and the Samurai's Resolve really feels like what the Fighter should have gotten instead of Bravery.
If nothing else, I think it would have been neat to use Bravery as a baseline bonus and then start tacking additional abilities on to it, so that your Bravery ability starts adding to your facility with your weapons, with your armor, with your saves, class-relevant skills, etc.
The Fighter' supposed to be simple, right? How much simpler can you get than one scaling bonus that you just get to add to more and more things as you level up?
They been getting feedback for years and yet UK only contained 1 fighter feat but more than 100 wizard spells. :(
I gave false information and misspelled.
It should have been: UK (ultimate combat) had one fighter feat and 97 wizard spells.|
Design Manager
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Perhaps they unchained the fighter by raplacing it with the slayer.I mean, eesh, they had the gall to come right out and say the Slayer does more damage then the Fighter, plus has more skill points...and they gave him more because he couldn't do his ambushes and didn't have enough.
Slayer kills things better (assuming he gets his sneak attack damage in), but he's got generally lower AC and versatility than the Fighter, so not exactly a straight up replacement.
Combat Maneuver checks. That's another thing Bravery should be added to. What takes more bravery than getting close enough to grapple an ogre?
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Slayer kills things better (assuming he gets his sneak attack damage in), but he's got generally lower AC and versatility than the Fighter, so not exactly a straight up replacement.
Wait...what? I'll grant you the AC, but how is Fighter more versatile than Slayer? Slayers have vastly better skills, aren't tied down to a specific weapon, and are just generally vastly more versatile than Fighters on almost every level. And does equally well offensively even sans Sneak Attack, for the record.
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Design Manager
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Slayer kills things better (assuming he gets his sneak attack damage in), but he's got generally lower AC and versatility than the Fighter, so not exactly a straight up replacement.Wait...what? I'll grant you the AC, but how is Fighter more versatile than Slayer? Slayers have vastly better skills, aren't tied down to a specific weapon, and are just generally vastly more versatile than Fighters on almost every level. And does equally well offensively even sans Sneak Attack, for the record.
The Slayer's selection of combat feats end up fairly "on rails". He's only a few feats short of what the Fighter gets in sheer number of feats, but they're very specific choices, not as open-ended as the Fighter's. The Fighter build has more ways to move pieces around within the build to accomplish different things in combat (combat maneuvers in particular are something the Fighter can play with to a much larger degree). The Fighter's ability to branch out or re-focus within his build exceeds the Slayer's.
Do I think the Slayer is a better class than the Fighter? Yes. Do I think it does everything the Fighter does well enough to completely replace that class for the people who want to play it? No. The Slayer still can't pick up Thunder and Fang as early as level 2. He can't cover the breadth of combat modification feats (critical feats, maneuver feats, etc.) that the Fighter can over the course of his career. The Slayer is a new class that's better at killing things than the Fighter, has better saves, and is better at skills, so yeah, he's a better class than the Fighter, but so are the Paladin, Barbarian, and Ranger and they've been around forever. He's not actually replacing the Fighter for the people who like the Fighter though or want to do some of those things that only the Fighter can do, and there's still reasons to do things like grab 2 levels of Fighter and then go Slayer the rest of the way.
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The Slayer's selection of combat feats end up fairly "on rails". He's only a few feats short of what the Fighter gets in sheer number of feats, but they're very specific choices, not as open-ended as the Fighter's.
That's true to some degree, but given the identical needs of all archery builds and the necessity of Power Attack for pretty much all melee ones, the number of options is high enough that the difference will rarely matter.
The Fighter build has more ways to move pieces around within the build to accomplish different things in combat (combat maneuvers in particular are something the Fighter can play with to a much larger degree). The Fighter's ability to branch out or re-focus within his build exceeds the Slayer's.
The Slayer can easily play with a couple of combat maneuvers if they want. They can get bonus maneuver Feats if they like, along with their basic Feats via the Combat Style and their normal Feats to grab some more. Yeah, Fighter technically gets more...but not enough more that it makes a huge difference.
Do I think the Slayer is a better class than the Fighter? Yes. Do I think it does everything the Fighter does well enough to completely replace that class for the people who want to play it? No.
I think it does for the vast majority of builds. There are certainly a few niche builds that Fighter can do but Slayer can't...but they're really limited in number, not the default.
The Slayer still can't pick up Thunder and Fang as early as level 2.
They can grab it at 3rd. That's not a meaningful difference.
He can't cover the breadth of combat modification feats (critical feats, maneuver feats, etc.) that the Fighter can over the course of his career.
He can over the first 12 levels or so...most of the time anyway. That's close enough for most builds.
The Slayer is a new class that's better at killing things than the Fighter, has better saves, and is better at skills, so yeah, he's a better class than the Fighter, but so are the Paladin, Barbarian, and Ranger and they've been around forever.
All true.
He's not actually replacing the Fighter for the people who like the Fighter though or want to do some of those things that only the Fighter can do, and there's still reasons to do things like grab 2 levels of Fighter and then go Slayer the rest of the way.
Technically this is true. But it's only true for very niche builds involving really weird Feat combinations (and not involving things like Power Attack and Weapon Focus).
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Some of the posts in this thread make me sad. What frustrate me are the constant complaints every time Paizo is releases something new.
During the playtest people raised there worry that the main problem with the rogue was is that it unfortunately brought the new classes down. The investigator and slayer was the two big concerns, but also Swashbuckler was a problem.
People loudly, and rightly so, pointed out that the new classes wasn’t the problem. The problem was the rogue (and to some extent the fighter).
Now when the Devs seems to have listened to us, people complain that the slayer is too good.
First of all, we haven’t seen the new classes nor do we know if the old classes get some new cool abilities or/and feats, but second, …….
….here it is: the slayer isn’t too good. Nor are any of the other new martial classes or the Investigator too good, it is the rogue, and to some extent the fighter, that are too weak
Seriously, would we have been happy if they had nerfed the Slayer or the investigator because they would have been more powerful than the rouge. Me, I’m extremely happy that they didn’t use the rogue as their benchmark.
BTW, and the ranger? The ranger is still very much a valid class.
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Design Manager
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BTW, and the ranger? The ranger is still very much a valid class.
Yeah Ranger was and continues to be one of the very best (if not the best) full BAB classes in the game. There's still many things I can do better with a Ranger than just about any other class; I think they make absolutely awesome leaders for thieve's guilds, I suspect their skill abilities in the wilderness will still be some of the best, though depending on what changes they made to the Hunter he could drop down into the number 3 spot.
The Fighter.... Well, they did say that some classes weren't mentioned in Unchained because they were making larger game changes that would serve the purpose of retooling those classes. It's possible that the Fighter's feats could find themselves retooled in such a way that it changes the playing field drastically enough to serve the same purpose as rewriting the class. I think there would have to be new, versatile, Fighter-specific feats introduced to accomplish that though.
They been getting feedback for years and yet UK only contained 1 fighter feat but more than 100 wizard spells. :(
It also contained some good fighter archetypes, some good feats for all martials, good new weapons, and (while sadly not a lot of people used this) dueling. Dueling has pretty much changed the way I run combat for the better. Arguably, the tactician fighter is what a lot of people have wanted in a fighter.
Ultimate Combat was for all martials, including ones that can cast spells and spell casters that could be built to be a martial.
My gut feeling tells me unchained won't contain any changes to the fighter. I could be wrong but rewriting the fighter would mean they have to rewrite a lot if other classes, such as the cavalier, samurai, magus and warpriest.
Easiest fix is just to create some new feats and and just errata some stuff.
I feel the prerequisite, feat chains and lack of good fighter only feats are the really big problems.
Edit:
That and skill problem and the fact that they are boring.
My gut feeling tells me unchained won't contain any changes to the fighter. I could be wrong but rewriting the fighter would mean they have to rewrite a lot if other classes, such as the cavalier, samurai, magus and warpriest.
Easiest fix is just to create some new feats and and just errata some stuff.
I don't really see how rewriting the fighter would require those other classes to be changed.
Honestly, I could really see them adding fighter talents that replace combat feats. Also, there is mention of the martial maneuver pool that will be appearing in Pathfinder Unchained. But the devs have already said that much of this book is pretty much slaughtering sacred cows that have been bothering people for a long time. And the fighter is one of them. They've already led with the monk and rogue, so I would be surprised if the fighter wasn't in that book in some way.
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My gut feeling tells me unchained won't contain any changes to the fighter. I could be wrong but rewriting the fighter would mean they have to rewrite a lot if other classes, such as the cavalier, samurai, magus and warpriest.
Easiest fix is just to create some new feats and and just errata some stuff.
I don't really see how rewriting the fighter would require those other classes to be changed.
Honestly, I could really see them adding fighter talents that replace combat feats. Also, there is mention of the martial maneuver pool that will be appearing in Pathfinder Unchained. But the devs have already said that much of this book is pretty much slaughtering sacred cows that have been bothering people for a long time. And the fighter is one of them. They've already led with the monk and rogue, so I would be surprised if the fighter wasn't in that book in some way.
I think he meant the fact that those classes get to treat their class as levels as Fighter levels to one degree or another. I don't see it as an issue for the Samurai; those feats are all weapon specific. The Magus though, would see a direct boost from any Fighter-specific feats that were improved.
That makes more sense. Gotcha.
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I think he meant the fact that those classes get to treat their class as levels as Fighter levels to one degree or another. I don't see it as an issue for the Samurai; those feats are all weapon specific. The Magus though, would see a direct boost from any Fighter-specific feats that were improved.
There are ways around that. If you add fighter class features into the prerequisites, suddenly you have a feat that those other classes can't take. This does have the unfortunate side effect of shutting out fighter archetypes though.
Any feat that required "fighter level 11" or higher is shut out from the magus as well.
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I think he meant the fact that those classes get to treat their class as levels as Fighter levels to one degree or another. I don't see it as an issue for the Samurai; those feats are all weapon specific. The Magus though, would see a direct boost from any Fighter-specific feats that were improved.There are ways around that. If you add fighter class features into the prerequisites, suddenly you have a feat that those other classes can't take. This does have the unfortunate side effect of shutting out fighter archetypes though.
Any feat that required "fighter level 11" or higher is shut out from the magus as well.
Well not "shut out" just "more heavily restricted". He still has archetypes like the Kensai and Myrmidarch who get to treat their Fighter level as their class level -3.
Long story short, they probably shouldn't have made feats Fighter-specific and then turned around and gave a bunch of non-Fighters ways to count as Fighters. Can you really think of a single Magus build that falls apart without Weapon Specialization?
If the Fighter class itself doesn't get 'unchained' then I suspect they'll 'fix' the fighter via Special options for the Fighter.
Like, for example, if a Fighter takes weapon Focus, it will do more in the hands of a Fighter, than in the hands of other classes.
Maybe something like...
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
Little stealth options like that could be used to address specific Figther weaknesses without re-writing the entire class. If they want to keep the Fighter as a 'bucketload of feats' class, then perhaps he should have the ability to get more out of his feats than nearly any other class.
A good amount of people have been complaining about that, I think even paizo realizes this; look at the many archetypes the fighter has, I think out of all the classes it has the largest number of archetypes and what is something that most of these archetypes have in common? They all replace Bravery with a more useful class ability. Its almost like paizo is admitting that Bravery is a terrible class ability, and that fighter's should get something else instead.
Honestly, I don't think I could play a fighter without an archetype, they solve several of the classes problems or turn him into a more interesting class.
Want more damage? The two-handed fighter.
Want to focus on maneuvers? Lore Warden and Cad.
Want to do multiple attacks after moving? Mobile fighter.
Still there are general things like the need of more Skill points, stronger out of combat utility and a way of reducing the feat tax that could go a long way in helping the fighter be a better class.
Of course there is the all important point of unchaining the fighter from reality...since this is a FANTASY game and all.
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Inspired by this thread, how about something like this:
Those who dedicate their lives to the art of fighting are unmatched in the ways of combat. Legends of great heroes abound – slaying a dragon single-handedly, deflecting magic back on those who cast it with a swipe of his sword, the ancient warrior able to turn anything he held into a deadly weapon – these are the tales of an age’s greatest fighters. From the humble farmer who picks up a plowshare and ends up saving the kingdom to the weapon master dedicated from childhood, being a true fighter is more than simple training. It is a passion, a calling, and the stuff from which legends are born.
Role: Fighters are the masters of the battlefield. Their incredible martial techniques and sheer versatility allow them to shape combat to best benefit them and their allies. Through nothing more than perfection in combat, they are capable of truly astounding deeds that seem mystical and can confound even the greatest shapers of magic.
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d10
The fighter’s class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Perception (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier
The following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, light, and medium) and shields (including tower shields).
Bonus Feats: At 1st level, and every 3 levels thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement. These bonus feats must be selected from those listed as combat feats, sometimes also called “fighter bonus feats.”
Upon reaching 6th level, and every 3 levels thereafter (9th, 12th, 15th, 18th), a fighter can choose to learn a new bonus feat in place of a bonus feat he has already learned. In effect, the fighter loses the bonus feat in exchange for the new one. The old feat cannot be one that was used as a prerequisite for another feat, prestige class, or other ability. A fighter can only change one feat at any given level and must choose whether or not to swap the feat at the time he gains a new bonus feat for the level.
Expertise: Fighters are experts in combat, capable of handling any weapon with a great deal of skill. When making an attack, a fighter adds a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls. This bonus increases by 1 at 5th level, and every 4 levels thereafter. This bonus is also added to the fighter’s CMB and CMD.
Once per day, a fighter can focus his expertise into one devastating attack. As a standard action, he can make one attack and double his expertise bonus for that attack. After the attack is resolved, the fighter’s expertise bonus is reduced to 0 until his next turn.
Martial Technique: As a fighter gains levels, he becomes more versed in the ways of combat. Starting at 2nd level, and every 3 levels thereafter, a fighter gains a martial technique. Unless otherwise noted, a fighter cannot select an individual power more than once.
Aim for the Heart – As a full round action, make one attack. If the attack hits, it deals normal damage and the target must make a Fortitude save (the DC is 10 + the fighter’s BAB) or die. This ability may be used once per day. A fighter must be at least 7th level to select this technique.
Alert – Add the fighter’s expertise bonus to his Initiative.
Armor Training – Increase the maximum Dex bonus allowed by the fighter’s armor and decrease the armor check penalty by an amount equal to the fighter’s expertise bonus. If this reduces the armor’s ACP to 0, the fighter may move at full speed while wearing the armor.
Battle Commander – As a full-round action, a fighter can lend his expertise to his allies by issuing commands and providing insight into combat. Allies within 30 ft. who can hear or see the fighter gain a competence bonus on their attack and damage rolls equal to the fighter’s expertise bonus for 1 round. The fighter can extend the duration of this effect with a standard action each subsequent round. The maximum duration of this ability is a number of rounds equal to the fighter’s Charisma modifier (minimum 1).
Counter – When a fighter successfully parries an attack, he may use the attack roll used to parry to make an attack on the opponent he parried. A fighter must have the Parry martial technique to select this martial technique.
Defensive Expertise – The fighter gains a dodge bonus to his AC equal to his expertise bonus.
Deflect Rays – A fighter can attempt to deflect any ray that targets him. As an immediate action, make an attack roll and compare it to the attack roll of the ray. If the fighter’s attack roll is higher, the ray is deflected harmlessly away. If the attack roll of the fighter exceeds that of the ray by 5 or more, the ray is reflected back at the caster, who becomes the new target. A ray cannot be deflected in this manner if the original attack roll was a natural 20. This ability can be used a number of times per day equal to the fighter’s expertise bonus. This ability can be chosen more than once. Each time it is chosen, increase the number of times per day it can be used by an amount equal to the fighter’s expertise bonus (these extra uses go up in value when the expertise value goes up).
Forge Master –The Fighter is not only a master of wielding weapons and armor, but also a master at their fabrication. He gains Craft Magic arms and Armor as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. For the purposes of this feat, treat the Fighter's BAB as his caster level. Choose Craft (weaponsmith), Craft (bowyer), or Craft (armorsmith). The fighter gains a bonus on this skill equal to his expertise bonus.
Graceful Steps – Fighters can assess the flow of combat and move through it with effortless grace. A fighter that selects this maneuver can make a number of additional 5-foot-steps per round equal to his expertise bonus.
Improved Defensive Expertise – The fighter gains DR/- equal to his expertise bonus. This damage reduction stacks with other sources of DR/-. A fighter must have the Defensive Expertise martial technique to select this martial technique.
Fearful Reputation – The fighter gains a bonus to Intimidate equal to his expertise modifier. In addition, he can attempt to demoralize an enemy as a swift action.
Mental Focus – Some fighters focus their training on strengthening the power of their mind. A fighter who selects this martial technique adds his expertise bonus on all Will saves.
Parry - As a swift action, a fighter may prepare to counter an attack made against him. The next time before the fighter’s next turn a creature he threatens attacks him, he may make an opposed attack roll. If the fighter’s attack roll is higher, the original attack misses. A natural 20 on the attack roll of the opponent can only be parried by a natural 20 by the fighter. Regardless of the success of the parry, it uses an attack of opportunity. This ability can be used a number of times per day equal to his expertise bonus. This ability can be chosen more than once. Each time it is chosen, increase the number of times per day it can be used by an amount equal to the fighter’s expertise bonus (these extra uses go up in value when the expertise value goes up).
Powerful Jump – When making a long jump, a fighter may add his level to the distance he jumps. When making a high jump, he may add his expertise bonus to the height he jumps.
Quick Reflexes – Fighters who select this martial technique have honed their reflexes to a razor edge, and gain a bonus to Reflex saves equal to their expertise bonus.
Skillful Manuever – Choose a combat maneuver from the following list: bull rush, dirty trick, disarm, grapple, overrun, reposition. The fighter gains the related Improved feat as a bonus feat. At 7th level, the fighter gains the related Greater feat as a bonus feat. The fighter does not need to meet the pre-requisites for these feats to receive them. This ability can be chosen more than once. Each time it is chosen, it applies to a new maneuver.
Skilled – Not all fighters focus their training exclusively on combat. A fighter who selects this martial technique gains a bonus to one skill equal to his expertise bonus. This ability can be chosen more than once. Each it is chosen, it applies to a different skill.
Spell Resistance – A fighter gains Spell Resistance equal to 10 + the fighter’s level. A fighter must be at least 11th level to select this ability.
Tactical Assessment – A fighter can use Sense Motive in place of a Knowledge skill to ascertain the abilities of a creature. The fighter must have witnessed the creature in combat for at least 2 rounds before he can use this ability.
Weapon Training – Some fighters focus their training on one type of weapon. Choose one weapon group. The fighter gains a +1 bonus to hit and +2 to damage with all weapons from that group and gains proficiency with every weapon in that group. This ability can be chosen more than once. Each time it is chosen, it applies to a new weapon group.
Bravery: Starting at 3rd level, a fighter gains a bonus on Will saves against mind-affecting effects equal to his Expertise bonus.
Versatility: At 6th level, a fighter learns to be more adaptable in combat. As a move action, he can gain the use of one combat feat for which he qualifies for a number of rounds equal to his Expertise bonus. At 12th level, a fighter can activate this ability as a swift action, and at 18th as an immediate action.
Indomitable: At 9th level, a fighter’s toughness allows him to shrug off many attacks. If he makes a Fortitude saving throw against an attack that has a reduced effect on a successful save, he instead avoids the effect entirely. A helpless fighter does not gain the benefit of the indomitable ability.
Improved Expertise: At 12th level, a fighter can expend his expertise one additional time per day, and the expertise bonus is tripled rather than doubled.
Tireless: At 15th level, fighters become immune to fatigue and exhaustion.
Greater Expertise: At 18th level, a fighter can expend his expertise one additional time per day, and the expertise bonus is quadrupled rather than tripled.
Mastery: At 20th level, a fighter becomes a true master of combat. Once per day, he may gain the use of any Martial Technique for which he qualifies for 5 rounds as an immediate action. In addition, he may select one weapon group to master. When wielding any weapon from that group, the critical multiplier of the weapon increases by 1 (x2 becomes x3, for example), and he cannot be disarmed.
Some of those are pretty nice.