Goblin Squad Member
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"The Shadow of the Beast" (working title)
Nation: Any
Settlement: Any
Alignments: Any (let me check my Grimoire: "Lycaonites can be of any alignment, though most tend towards chaotic and evil alignments, as their inner beast drives them into darkness.")
Player Roles Accepted: Any
Gaming Membership Status: Must be interested in crowdforging Lycanthropes for implementation and potentially motivated enough to chipping in a monthly donation towards this endeavour (tbd).
Application: TBD - I'll get something up and running for this which will be of interest to potential members and the curious alike.
Useful Reference material: A Necromancer’s Grimoire: Märchen der
Dæmonwulf by Alex Riggs, Joshua Zaback, Justin Hollowa
[Nihimonicon note: It may be something of a fatuous group atm (hopefully the future is open to revision), but also something of a novely]
First: This may very well be a doomed (doomed to fail) and a cursed (requiring your character's inconvenience every full moon) venture. You have been warned!
Now, this is not a CC nor settlement/nation player group but another kind of affiliation that integrates with any of these with minor conflict of interest (full moon only!). So it's open to anyone.
As a lycanthrope, we only require your services on the full moon. Then you must be ready to follow the Cooperative's strict guidelines on RP of Lycanthropes ie playing with "good form" and keeping the Lycanthrope name in good repute with the rest of the player-base, such as attacking strangers in the wilds during the full moon, attacking indecriminantly and consuming the fallen carcasses of players, animals and mobs. That is all good form and in keeping with the nature and motivations of the Lycanthrope. Your membership will be at risk for example if you choose to use this ability for your character and their group's exploits. The Cooperative will need to sign a contract with members to hold up these standards, as support cast in the world of the River Kingdoms and as in particular Lycanthropes your role during your transformation is altogether very different and more IC focused or should be.
Objectives of the Cooperative:
1. Motion Goblinworks via forging a group membership that supports a MVP version of Lycanthropes in PFO.
2. Work on adapting some rules of Pathfinder Lycanthropes into PFO and submit to Goblinworks for inspection.
3. Work on the role that the Lycanthrope is intended to play. Remember this is not a core progression role but a side-role concerning experiencing what it is like to be a Lycanthrope in the River Kingdoms. For most of the game world's month you can be whoever you want to be and carry out your membership duties. But come the full moon you are expected to shed your human skin and unleash the beast within.
4. Work on the guidelines for altered beasts which members are required to stick to. Think of it as advanced AI with plenty of human scope for spontaneity and RP.
5. Create a website for information on these creatures, a fansite and resource and member's area to centralize working on the above.
A full set of Do's and Don't will be produced as guidelines in a first draft of RP of Lycanthropes.
A full research and summary of the literature available on Lyanthropes will be developed for the above purposes.
The intial step will be to forge a MVP Lycanthrope template that Goblinworks can deploy so that in game our Cooperative can get to work and make good use of. This would appear to be:
MPV Lyanthrope =
1. Wolf model (already developed)
2. Phases of the moon (need to check if Goblinworks are going to implement this graphically or if we can just go by the internal calendar of the game's clock)
3. Stats of the wolf and attack abilities (Could be the same as Monster Cast for the wolf model)
4. Corpse Eating (ideally we'd get some kind of animation here or just attack corpse + buff effect several times in repetition)
5. The account management might be the area with the most initial cost to allocate members this ability for their characters. Needs discussion with Goblinworks.
=
Background: I'd taken a look at various CC's and will probably find one or two to join as a normal character. I like the looks of for example:
1. The Forgeholm (dwarf settlement)
2. The keepers of the forest group
3. The barbarian group
etc. These all look appealing. But the early stage of this game, gives me hope and inspiration to create something too... and that is why my character will be a loyal member of these groups but underneath a darkness will be gnawing away, a terrible addition that needs feeding every full moon and ideally in secret from my loyal friends and fellow compansions. An alter-ego with a terrible hunger! A curse under the pale light of the moon.
Anyway, background aside, the main priority will be to develop these ideas into a fully codified form and thereby present something substantial to which people might like to join this doomed (and cursed) adventure with me?
There's one caveat, due to the nature of the RP required, I will only be accepting applications from members on the boards who I have followed their history of and can vouch that I can make a good working relationship based on trust with from their proven history. If any newbs like this idea, then I'll have to postpone your application until I have a full history of your character with which to measure your worthiness to join if that does not sound too high and mighty, at this early stage.
Finally, rival cooperatives that wish to engage with Goblinworks in a Lycanthrope or other form of Franchise are very much welcomed! This is in keeping with the Lycanthrope way of fighting for supremacy and dismembering and devouring the loser in such a fight.
The first thing to do will be to develop the Lycanthrope scene for PFO players. This will gain attention and interest from which we might be able to create a platform engage Goblinworks more seriously (and grow a group out of) on a quote for the MVP Lycanthrope for our Cooperative and also collaborate on the Franchise to be written into our account membership in-game, if all goes well. If not, the theory-crafting will be a lot of fun nonetheless ie the journey if the destination proves unreachable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've added your Player Cooperative to the Guild Recruitment & Helpful Links list. If you have a brief description you'd like to appear there to let people know about your guild while they're browsing that list, please PM me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think this is a really cool idea! I'd like to see it succeed!
I would like to see more thoughts fleshed out on this (I hope I am not hijacking the thread), such as:
1) If a character chooses to play the Lycanthrope role, what benefits/detriments will they gain/suffer?
1a) When are these benefits/detriments active? All the time? Only when in lycan form?
2) On full moon nights, when Lycanthropes are active as lycans, will they suffer rep loss for attacking non-flagged characters?
3) If a lycanthrope attacks another chracter on a full moon night as a lycan and inflicts a wound, will that character then potentially become afflicted if they survive the attack?
I think this would add a great facet to PFO and I absolutely want to see it succeed (better bring extra guards with you when adventuring or traveling on full moon nights!)!
Good luck!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thanks Nihimon, most assiduous. I'll follow up with a summary description seeing as it's an usual type of group.
@Jazz: The road is long and lean, it may be more about digging up a few graves to gnaw on at first but maybe in time a battle under the full moon will be a moveable feast of rich pickings. We'll probably have to have a discussion about weak/wounded making priority targets or not...
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Goblin Squad Member
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@TEO Lone_Wolf
At first we'd have very little to work with. We may even have to be reduced to the state of barbarians with cannabalistic leanings and eventually druidic properties with a tendency to meet for the full moon for a blood feast, in the early days until our dark prayers are answered more wholesomely. A lot would be up to the members of the Cooperative to RP and work on what is possible and what is feasible to kick things off.
1a) At first both would be very little. Over time we could see some benefits, the special powers to transform for example then the addition of specific stats for our transformed shape. Very small incremental improvements but enough to use and requiring bare development requirements from the devs.
1b) Ideally the follow through with "The Curse of the Beast", we'd be able to crowdforge a boon to corpse-eating (more power during the wolf shape) and a curse to not meeting a sufficient quota of consumed meat perhaps for the character. But this would be quite ambitious and far off from this moment in time.
2)The idea of being free of reputation/alignment changes, or not, would be a big discussion point.
Initially there would be no way around it and members might take a hit for their curse, by waylaying a character to perform the blood ritual, hence the above slide towards Chaotic/Evil tendency though as it's x1 a month Good and Lawful could probably "manage" this peculiar and periodic slide. Later if we gain access to wolf shape we might then carry on taking an alignment hit during the full moon and then decide how necessary the functionality of being immune to this hit is, depending on of course the discipline of our group's membership to RP the lycanthrope. At that point, there could even be enough bartering power with Goblinworks for some sort of functionality. And then we'd need to prioritize between feats, alignment and graphics and lunar cycle additions and more.
3) I've given that one a bit of thought and it would (perhaps surprisingly) be lower down the order of priorities I'd guess, given a lot of the player behaviour works off a basis of trust and responsibility and that is allocated via membership to the cooperative according to those measures to ensure the cooperative's in-game activity is to high standards and positive to the game world holistically. So I'd be careful to transmit the curse given the above, but potentially some sort of temporary transformation into a basic wolf could be a work-around to inconvenience a player as well as gift them a temporary experience as a wolf, something like 1 in 50 bites?! /theory-crafting
In terms of the progression of the Lycanthrope, feats would be another avenue with +50 in the book referenced above. So there's lots of "space" but we'd have to be willing to work with very little of it for perhaps a while to make a go of it. And it would be more about making the group work out of game and in game only during the full moon of course! So fairly easy on time-commitment of members. I like to think of this group as a type of secret society extra- to regular group affiliations, ie it does not clash with their interests bar "a small inconvenience" per the moon phase.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thanks Nihimon, most assiduous.
You're quite welcome, and I am genuinely flattered by the compliment, so please don't take this the wrong way. But that word reminded me of an old sketch by The Kids in the Hall that has stuck with me for many, many years.
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2) On full moon nights, when Lycanthropes are active as lycans, will they suffer rep loss for attacking non-flagged characters?
I'm not sure of how PF lycanthropy works. Does a were-creature resumes its normal form at death? If so, then there's two points at which a lycanthrope can be discovered: shifting form in front of a witness, and when killed in PvP.
Once some characters are known to be lycanthropes, the Reputation losses from lycanthrope kills might be shared between the were-creatures that are known locally. (So sometimes they get blamed for kills they didn't do. Sometimes they get away with kills they did do. Yup.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Nihimon: I see your "methodology" at work..
>"Does a were-creature resumes its normal form at death?"
@Urman, this consideration passed me before and I don't know the answer, another one to look up and consider and discuss. I know in one movie they do change. The idea of anonymity or not again that is something further to think about. Ideally there would be, so it's more like a monster/AI attacking in appearance, and the idea of a secret society remains in tact too! But there may be good reasons to keep a character name. More to ponder.
@Being: What is appealing with the werewolf or lycanthrope is the duality between being perhaps a LG upstanding character and then this dramatic transformation into a blood-thirsty "monster" and then the next morning after a huge feast of human or other flesh waking up feeling great enjoying the blue sky and doing good works, maybe helping the local charity or something? With the weresheep such a duality would need to be found for the drama. Perhaps the weresheep would raid the farmer's fields and devour all their crops?! But the affinity of the pack and the hunt are a good fit for player characters and wolves. In fact that is another angle for the cooperative to discuss the use of packs and when and when not. I also like the idea of intra-rivalries developing for contesting superiority again an alpha pack type of match with wolves.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sorry Avena I was merely bemused by the conceptual contrast between 'were-' and a sheep. Many visuals attended.
I realize I should display greater gravitas, even be adult, but inside me lives a real kid.
I was taking you up on the idea! There's a movie called Blacksheep from New Zealand fittingly, a sort of dark comedy. No idea if it's a good film. ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Pappy Boyington was a WWII Ace in the South Pacific. His outfit was called the 'The Black Sheep'. There was also a U.S. television series that starred Robert Conrad.
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Here are my thoughts on these items (breaking this up for ease of digestion):
1) If a character chooses to play the Lycanthrope role, what benefits/detriments will they gain/suffer?
It would be interesting to see some sort of benefit, offset with an equivalent detriment, for players afflicted with lycanthropy. Looking to the TT RPG PRD regarding Lycanthropes (werewolf specifically):
In Human Form: add low-light vision, perception buff, bravery buff, add will save vs. fear buff, intimidate buff, add lycanthropic empathy (wolves and dire wolves).
In Hybrid (Lycan) Form: AC buff, HP buff, Fortitude save buff, Reflex save buff, add DR 10/silver, add bite attack (plus curse of lycanthropy), add trip attack, add ranged and melee attack bonus, strength buff, constitution buff, combat maneuver bonus/defense buff, climb buff.
How these would translate into the MMO would be challenging, because they are pretty significant in the grand scheme of things and could be very unbalancing.
Certainly when in Lycan form there needs to be some sort of damage reduction/silver benefit, and at least a strength buff. Offsetting these would be challenging.
From a detriment side, again looking to the TT RPG PRD regarding Lycanthropes …what an afflicted lycanthrope does while in animal or hybrid form is often at odds with what the character would actually want…
and
PRD Regarding Monsters as PCs: Some creatures are simply not suitable for play as PCs, due to their powers or role in the game.
I’d say it would be prudent in lycan form to have some sort of animalistic rage affect that makes it impossible to tell friend from foe, or something like that, but mechanically in a computer game I’m not sure that is workable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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1a) When are these benefits/detriments active? All the time? Only when in lycan form?
See above. Certainly some apply only when in Lycan form, but some probably should carry over into human form as well. I would say most should be detriments when in the human form, but that means 97% of the time you suffer detriments for that 3% of the time you gain any benefit at all, which seems un-right and broken. Not sure how to deal with that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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2) On full moon nights, when Lycanthropes are active as lycans, will they suffer rep loss for attacking non-flagged characters?
When in lycan form, there should be no reputation loss. But, there should be some limit to this also. Meaning, when in lycan form perhaps you can only attack x number of unflagged characters a night. Mechanically, perhaps all characters are treated as flagged when in lycan form until x are attacked, then flags go away. From a lore standpoint it could be reasoned that lycans need to feed on their prey, which takes a long time, so there is a limit to how much hunting can be done in one night?
3) If a lycanthrope attacks another character on a full moon night as a lycan and inflicts a wound, will that character then potentially become afflicted if they survive the attack?
I think there should be some chance that the attacked character can become afflicted, at least from a bite attack as in the TT RPG.
If this is true, there should also be a way to remove the affliction for these characters (perhaps visiting a certain temple with the unique ability to cure lycanthropy). I’m not sure how this would work best, you certainly wouldn’t want a settlement of lycanthropes to also have the only temple around with the ability to cure the affliction, else afflicted characters could be fleeced for the service. Perhaps there are certain crafted items one can carry to reduce the chance to become afflicted.
There are just so many aspects of this idea that would be really interesting in PFO and add a lot of unique flavor to the game that I think it’s too cool not to do it!
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I’d say it would be prudent in lycan form to have some sort of animalistic rage affect that makes it impossible to tell friend from foe, or something like that, but mechanically in a computer game I’m not sure that...
Maybe when the animal brain takes over the lycan just sees "Human" "Elf" where the rest of us see a character name and company/settlement details, and vision is in grey scale (background) with red scale targets (living creatures/victims). A lycan could work with his buddies through Teamspeak to verify he wasn't attacking friendlies, but only at a cost of effectiveness.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Looking over the Grimoire referenced above, there's plenty of source material to work from, which is very good news.
However, initially we have to work with what we have which will be very little except our very powerful brains and that means harnessing RP rules to our cooperative.
I’d say it would be prudent in lycan form to have some sort of animalistic rage affect that makes it impossible to tell friend from foe, or something like that, but mechanically in a computer game I’m not sure that is workable.
ie 1) The MVP I can envisage atm, knapkin sketch and all is the ability to create a wolf form on the full moon and then enACT as werewolves our own volition control via RP and our Cooperatives' guidelines. There's even stages before reaching these that are workable*. But I think this is the starting point and then we can start to investigate and work on in particular:
1. Boon from corpse feeding eg translation to movement, perception, bite/claw power of attacks, call of the wild (summon wolves) etc etc and many more feats described in the Grimoire that could translate over if our cooperative reaches a certain stage of development and support and interest.
Certainly some apply only when in Lycan form, but some probably should carry over into human form as well... Not sure how to deal with that.
2. ie 1a) Initially we'd probably have to work off just having the ability to transform for the full moon and keep our character's lives totally distinct and separate from their alter-ego alter-beast lives on the full moon. This creates a nice break for the contract of the cooperative where we can suggest the guidelines are active and where they end too. ie 2) Naturally Alignment/Reputation hits would have to be the individual player's own responsibility in the early days until again we can get to a stage where Goblinworks may work something out for us.
There are just so many aspects of this idea that would be really interesting in PFO and add a lot of unique flavor to the game that I think it’s too cool not to do it!
3. ie 3) I definitely would love to elaborate and express more and more of the Lycanthrope lore into this design eg Silver weapons, boon vs curse repercussions and of course the infected bite that curses the victim etc etc. We can certainly brainstorm these ideas into a potentially workable system, but as built into the Lycanthrope "research unit" the cooperative is going to be set up in part to work on; we need to identify what is possible to implement and progress development in game and prioritize and what would require more complicated and dedicated development - dependent on popularity.
Now if we manage to get a paw into the game world and start to make a name for ourselves, you never know if we do a good job, our popularity may build a wave of good will that can take us further along to these "research" ideas.
4. One of the underlying ideas with this Player Cooperative is a different formalization of relationship based on trust not necessarily on purchase power nor in-game status or some other measure. That is a fundamental I hope to use to create an RP group for this character concept to bring some acting into the game where we use PFO as our canvas and our high level RP rules as a cooperative group to paint the world - "red"!
*These early stages will be outlined in some neat and tidy summary somewhere, probably a good place for beginning to begin as it were.
Edit: Added specific quotes I was referring to (in case it was too oblique!). It seems to me we'll start with A->B->C->D etc and A will be very very basic whereas stages after D might start seeing these more elaborate implementations if we get there, it's going to be a long journey.
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I’d say it would be prudent in lycan form to have some sort of animalistic rage affect that makes it impossible to tell friend from foe, or something like that, but mechanically in a computer game I’m not sure that...Maybe when the animal brain takes over the lycan just sees "Human" "Elf" where the rest of us see a character name and company/settlement details, and vision is in grey scale (background) with red scale targets (living creatures/victims). A lycan could work with his buddies through Teamspeak to verify he wasn't attacking friendlies, but only at a cost of effectiveness.
Good visions. This particular area is ripe for inventiveness!
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Not to be "that guy", but perhaps you could just build barbarian/druid characters and flavor your wild shaping as lycanthropy?
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Goblin Squad Member
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These are sort of the same question in different guise.
Not to be "that guy", but perhaps you could just build barbarian/druid characters and flavor your wild shaping as lycanthropy?
This is what I was referring to as "A" above and for some time that will be the likely modus operandi available and it is serviceable, we'll start with Barbarian then include Druid. B then is not too big a next step after this and you can guess well enough what that might be.
If you want lycanthrope for strictly RP reasons, would you be okay with the fact that it was just a change in model without any sort of mechanical difference?
To elaborate further for Doggan's question's clarity, the RP is one tool out of a set that we would hope to use, but it's a powerful tool that will provide a lot of gameplay possibilities both at A and at D. To reveal more might be to unmask too many mysteries too soon. /amateur dramatics!
To be clear, there are bigger (and wider) objectives, but initially it would a positive addition to even have the model transformation. Let's call that B.
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@Doggan and @Kobold Cleaver,
Yep, I was just letting my imagination go wild with what might be possible, years down the road! You both make good points at how this can beign with the mechanics that will be available early on.
I think AvenaOats has a very interesting concept here and a good vision of how to start small and build over time, which is how it will certainly have to happen in PFO.
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Maybe when the animal brain takes over the lycan just sees "Human" "Elf" where the rest of us see a character name and company/settlement details, and vision is in grey scale (background) with red scale targets (living creatures/victims). A lycan could work with his buddies through Teamspeak to verify he wasn't attacking friendlies, but only at a cost of effectiveness.
This is a great idea!
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I'm of course interested. I'll have to read more on this later.
If we want to RP lycanthropes one thing we could possibly do before GW releases anything official is wait until wildshape is out, then agree on a full moon night schedule. Preferably one that allows for full recovery from a rep hit inbetween each one.
Then all lycanthrope RPers kill someone in their wolf form on that night.
If we get enough supporters involving themselves GW will probably take note.
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If you want lycanthrope for strictly RP reasons, would you be okay with the fact that it was just a change in model without any sort of mechanical difference?To elaborate further for Doggan's question's clarity, the RP is one tool out of a set that we would hope to use, but it's a powerful tool that will provide a lot of gameplay possibilities both at A and at D. To reveal more might be to unmask too many mysteries too soon. /amateur dramatics!
To be clear, there are bigger (and wider) objectives, but initially it would a positive addition to even have the model transformation. Let's call that B.
I'm really confused here. My question didn't need any more clarity. It was about as straightforward as I could make it. Still kinda hoping to hear an answer.
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2) On full moon nights, when Lycanthropes are active as lycans, will they suffer rep loss for attacking non-flagged characters?
When in lycan form, there should be no reputation loss. But, there should be some limit to this also. Meaning, when in lycan form perhaps you can only attack x number of unflagged characters a night. Mechanically, perhaps all characters are treated as flagged when in lycan form until x are attacked, then flags go away. From a lore standpoint it could be reasoned that lycans need to feed on their prey, which takes a long time, so there is a limit to how much hunting can be done in one night?
This is the part that I'm not 'getting' with these werewolf suggestions. Why does the lycanthrope suffer no reputation loss? Is it because the affliction is successfully kept hidden, regardless of what the mundane players do? Or is it because the werewolf is out of control and can't held responsible?
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This is the part that I'm not 'getting' with these werewolf suggestions. Why does the lycanthrope suffer no reputation loss? Is it because the affliction is successfully kept hidden, regardless of what the mundane players do? Or is it because the werewolf is out of control and can't held responsible?
In most of these styles of titles in order to leave a small newb oriented area and take place in most meaningful content such as any form of territory control one must subject themselves to constant consequence free PvP from everyone, prettymuch anywhere, for any reason.
This produces a murder sim where people run around killing everyone because "lulz".
Reputation prevents that. However it can also hinder a lot of meaningful PvP. Any PvP that can be identified as meaningful should have rep hits entirely removed. This is why I advocate the removal of rep penalties in the highly contested star metal hexes.
I would also argue occasional and well announced full moon nights makes killing as a/being killed a lycanthrope far more meaningful and even fun.
These provide meaningful/non-random PvP so the penalties should be dropped.
For those who have forgotten I'll also point out I was one of the main people arguing for the inclusion of the reputation mechanic and still support it's REAL purpose.
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"Why, look at the time! C'mon, boys, it's a Griefin' Moon!"
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If there's a period of time that a group of players can kill anyone anywhere with no penalties, yeah, you better believe people are gonna use it to grief. They will not use it for meaningful PvP, they will wreak havoc on easy targets without a care.
It is a mile away from the idea of a FFA Starfall Hex, which is limited in scope and only affects those fool enough to enter one of the most naturally dangerous hexes in the game
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If there's a period of time that a group of players can kill anyone anywhere with no penalties, yeah, you better believe people are gonna use it to grief. They will not use it for meaningful PvP, they will wreak havoc on easy targets without a care.
It is a mile away from the idea of a FFA Starfall Hex, which is limited in scope and only affects those fool enough to enter one of the most naturally dangerous hexes in the game
Ok let's run with that then. We'll say 1 real day = 4 game days. So you get a full moon night for 2 hours a week. It's announced beforehand so everyone is aware lycanthropes get unlimited free kills on this night and they're out looking to kill people.
You are a powerful, we'll say fully maxed out lycanthrope.
Describe how are you going to use these abilities to "grief" people.
First, you make a big group of lycanthropes.
Second, you rampage and murder anyone within reach.
Epilogue: Nobody can retaliate against you for your actions. Mindless PvP that only has negative consequences for your targets.
It's not really super complicated.
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First, you make a big group of lycanthropes.
Second, you rampage and murder anyone within reach.
Following you so far though so far I would describe this situation as a world wide monster event with player controlled monsters. It sounds extremely fun for both sides.
Epilogue: Nobody can retaliate against you for your actions. Mindless PvP that only has negative consequences for your targets.
It's not really super complicated.
And you've lost me. By the mechanics I've supported anyway all these lycanthropes have heinous flags during this full moon night and any other time they take hybrid form and there are slayers with special abilities that make them stronger vs. monstrous creatures that can hunt them constantly.
You can gather up your friends and go fight back. If you really hate them you can go slayer and become incredibly powerful against them / able to hunt them constantly.
That's meaningful retaliation and far from mindless.
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This is the part that I'm not 'getting' with these werewolf suggestions. Why does the lycanthrope suffer no reputation loss? Is it because the affliction is successfully kept hidden, regardless of what the mundane players do? Or is it because the werewolf is out of control and can't held responsible?
Well, that was my thought, but as I said above I'm not sure how that would work in game mechanics. But I see the potential problem you've noted. There needs to be some sort of balancing factor that makes Lycanthropy a detriment, also. The intent (at least, my intent) was not to have some griefing mechanism, but to add another facet to the game that could be interesting.
I would think there would be Lycanthrope hunters, also. These folks would, of course, hunt Lycanthropes on full moons. Probably in groups, and probably in areas where Lycans are know to frequent. To me, that makes being in the lycan form very risky during full moon nights. I suppose this needs more thinking through, but I still think it can be a viable option with the right controls.
Second, you rampage and murder anyone within reach.
Epilogue: Nobody can retaliate against you for your actions. Mindless PvP that only has negative consequences for your targets.
Yea, not the intent (not mine anyway, and I don't think the OP's either though I don't want to speak for the OP.
So you get a full moon night for 2 hours a week.
As stated, this is a very limited window where this is in play and everyone knows about it. But, I agree it shouldn't be a license to kill without consequence.
Perhaps that's part of the affliction; 1) you have to kill on full moon nights and 2) you will take reputation loss for it. So the rest of the time you have to balance that out with other deeds. Perhaps that would work.
By the way, thanks for all who are contributing, it is very helpful (for me, certainly) in thinking through how this could work.
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Perhaps that's part of the affliction; 1) you have to kill on full moon nights and 2) you will take reputation loss for it. So the rest of the time you have to balance that out with other deeds. Perhaps that would work.
I can see that being a good feature. You kill on the full moon but lose reputation. The rest of the time, you can try to 'atone' for the murders you committed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just as Peter Parker has to balance Power and Responsibility, I think that Weredude should have to balance Power and Control.
Here's a killer app (groan) for Were-play that gets everyone involved:
1. On the full moon, the infected character transforms. He's hungry and wants a kill. Over the two hours of the moon, he has a risk of losing control and this goes up over time if he doesn't make a kill. Kills can be characters or NPCs or mobs.
2. Each time Weredude kills a character or 'friendly' NPC, he takes an Evil hit. Every time he makes a kill he makes a check to see if he goes out of control. Being high Law, high Good, and high Rep all improve the chance of maintaining control, but there's always a chance he loses it.
3. When Weredude loses control, he takes a Chaos hit and loses control. One of the mundane players online has the option to take over the character, like Monster play in LotRO. The new character running Weredude's character has no ability to open inventory or see account details, all he can do is hunt (or abstain from hunting).
4. Each kill under a new controller is checked to see if the control stays with that controller, switches back to Weredude's player, or switches to yet another character. Control checks are based on the character's current alignment (which is taking Evil and Chaos hits as this progresses). If Weredude's player is offline and control reverts to him, the beast vanishes, sated.
Expected results: players that are very careful with their powers will hunt bad NPCs and game and avoid Evil hits; they'll stop after 1 kill. Players that let the beast out will lose control and with the help of other players, quickly sink to CE (like a lot of were-creatures).
Werewolf stories are parables of balancing power and control. While it might not be fun to lose control of your powerful furry friend, that's part of lycanthropy; they lose control when they use their powers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Perhaps that's part of the affliction; 1) you have to kill on full moon nights and 2) you will take reputation loss for it. So the rest of the time you have to balance that out with other deeds. Perhaps that would work.
My problem with both your and Urman's suggestion is this. Where is the upside?
I've envisioned full moon nights as something werewolves want to log in to participate in because of a simple reason. If you don't offer that why would they? If I have a werewolf and full moon nights offer nothing but penalties I'm going to go craft on my DT while they happen.
If full moon nights offer such penalties there needs to be some draw that makes werewolves log in to participate anyway.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If I were the type of player that would skip a cure and accept the curse of lycanthropy, I'd probably either being totally accepting of being CE, or I'd think (wrong!) that I could control my beast forever.
So I'd log on on those full moon nights and get as many rep free kills in my enemies' territory as I could before I lost control. (My suggestion has no rep loss, just evil and chaos hits). Whoever takes my beast after I lose control will find himself in my enemies' lands and hopefully continues to kill people there.
Yes, my character would end up maxed out chaotic and evil, but the beast would be spreading chaos even when I wasn't running it.
edit to add: I've trampled enough on AvenaOats' thread and will leave it now.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm of course interested. I'll have to read more on this later.
If we want to RP lycanthropes one thing we could possibly do before GW releases anything official is wait until wildshape is out, then agree on a full moon night schedule. Preferably one that allows for full recovery from a rep hit inbetween each one.
Then all lycanthrope RPers kill someone in their wolf form on that night.
If we get enough supporters involving themselves GW will probably take note.
Great! "Your credit's fine, Mr. Torrance."
You raise key points:-
* Concerning beginning to begin, I actually think some of us can start with a bunch of luna-tic barbarians or other meeting during the lunar cycle's full moon. On the moon cycle we'll probably restrict any relevant activity to the full moon only. If the system were ever developed further the other phases might be considered with respect to buffs and debuffs. This is detailed in the Grimoire very well.
* Point taken concerning the importance to allow members to make a full recover of reputation hits. Absolutely agree.
* The key is to balance the savagery with our code and guidelines so even if we perform reprehensible acts, there is an in-game logic and balance to our activities as per our RP conception of our characters being fully developed with a well-built frame of reference to the game world to inform our actions. One way to perhaps create a system for this is some sort of "event card" system for members to engage with during these nights with various potential activities eg "On this dark night your belly is full and you feel a keen desire to patrol the borders of your territory" or "This dark night your hunger for fresh meat know's no limits and you will attack and consume for as long as the night is dark," or "You and some fellows form a pack to bring down bigger and more powerful prey..." or "Your transformation complete the heightened sensory experience overloads your character's mind and you rush through the landscape in a blur, a blood moon hanging low on the horizon, anything is possible on this night." etc.
* This is correct. I think we need to be very well organized and systematic and ensure our activities act holistic to the River Kingdoms to benefit the game world for all, our cooperative and the rest of the player population and ensure we play by our set rules fairly. This is the way to develop things and that comes back to the quality of the membership requiring high level of trust and for that a strong history per player to become a member of the cooperative is the most essential criteria for membership. If we are already creating content for the population that integrates, we're already pioneering some of the work for Goblinworks to be able to formalize and add.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm really confused here. My question didn't need any more clarity. It was about as straightforward as I could make it. Still kinda hoping to hear an answer.
If you want lycanthrope for strictly RP reasons, would you be okay with the fact that it was just a change in model without any sort of mechanical difference?To elaborate further for Doggan's question's clarity, the RP is one tool out of a set that we would hope to use, but it's a powerful tool that will provide a lot of gameplay possibilities both at A and at D. To reveal more might be to unmask too many mysteries too soon. /amateur dramatics!
To be clear, there are bigger (and wider) objectives, but initially it would a positive addition to even have the model transformation. Let's call that B.
My apologies, I'm suffering some flu since the w/e atm, so a bit foggy-brained.
The way I'm trying to work out what a Lycanthrope would be like in the River Kingdoms is the basis for the concept. I tagged them as support cast and apart from the main cast of main races who exist in civilizations that war with each other. So in that sense it will be RP led, again to create some theatre of the mind additions: If you like an amusing on the side player initiative that is not antagonistic with the politics of the different groups but "diversionary": A welcome exploration of more of the River Kingdoms world. But the objectives are both bigger, to crowdforge this role into the game more and wider, to create a genuine cooperative around this character concept that works on the concept, works on a possible implementation of how Lycanthropes could be added and what feats could be developed for them, that grows this membership and possibly invests into it. It's also important to understand that such a group will require different formalization on different criteria to succeed and that too is perhaps the most important objective of all to succeed even if we fail to reach our final objective of successful implementation of Lycanthropes into a fantasy game in the way "they should be" represented. That's up the members of the cooperative and hopefully it will be worth their time and investment - and be fun.
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Goblin Squad Member
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First, you make a big group of lycanthropes.
Second, you rampage and murder anyone within reach.
Epilogue: Nobody can retaliate against you for your actions. Mindless PvP that only has negative consequences for your targets.
It's not really super complicated.
That would be the short-termism approach to Lycanthropes. The way I hope it develops with the assistance of members of the cooperative (and remember the main criteria I'm going to use is Trust for addition of membership and also a smaller membership again for communication purposes as it is initially an RP-led exercise) is to bring a net benefit to the game world even the victims, knowing that the Lycanthropes are operating as you would expect them to on the Full Moon according to their nature and their frame of reference to the world on such bloody-thirsty nights. One of the things about this size of the cooperative being small and operating only during the full moon again this is positive for players to react against. In time it would be great if the cooperative grows and silver weapons are the weapon of choice during this time: Lycanthropes will literally have changed some aspect of the world!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Werewolf stories are parables of balancing power and control. While it might not be fun to lose control of your powerful furry friend, that's part of lycanthropy; they lose control when they use their powers.
I like this. On Reputation hits, at the beginning that is how it will be, as we'll be operating under our own remit and have no choice on the matter. It's probably a good fit anyway given the above.
But that's not to say we can't have this conversation further down the line when we have full transformation and our cooperative has proven itself to be asset to the game, then some kind of account management system tied into reputation... who knows? We'd have to work on this idea further.
My problem with both your and Urman's suggestion is this. Where is the upside?
I've envisioned full moon nights as something werewolves want to log in to participate in because of a simple reason. If you don't offer that why would they? If I have a werewolf and full moon nights offer nothing but penalties I'm going to go craft on my DT while they happen.
If full moon nights offer such penalties there needs to be some draw that makes werewolves log in to participate anyway.
That is an important consideration: We need to address how the Lycanthrope role is stimulating and fun? My personal take to add to the conversation is that the experience and the rules and work towards developing the concept of Lycanthropes will be it's own reward and equally own way of making more fun for ourselves and potentially becoming popular enough to get some Goblinworks' input. That to me is the ultimate goal of putting up with the deficiencies but overcoming them with our own inventiveness and RP and putting up with such "penalties" as best we can. The more we can exercise this, the more we may be able to achieve and the more development such as genuine feats and perhaps graphical enhancements such as a bigger and meaner looking wolf model with a corpse-feeding animation and audio blood-curdling "howl" we might be able to achieve.
I see initially the major draw to participate simply being the organization and cooperation to develop the Lycanthrope presence in game to become a genuine asset and alternative form of engagement. It is afterall a side plot the major story of the settlement conflict, by a small group of oddballs, once every full moon in a comparatively small area of the game world!
edit to add: I've trampled enough on AvenaOats' thread and will leave it now.
All discussion that will have to take place sooner or later!
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm really confused here. My question didn't need any more clarity. It was about as straightforward as I could make it. Still kinda hoping to hear an answer.
If you want lycanthrope for strictly RP reasons, would you be okay with the fact that it was just a change in model without any sort of mechanical difference?To elaborate further for Doggan's question's clarity, the RP is one tool out of a set that we would hope to use, but it's a powerful tool that will provide a lot of gameplay possibilities both at A and at D. To reveal more might be to unmask too many mysteries too soon. /amateur dramatics!
To be clear, there are bigger (and wider) objectives, but initially it would a positive addition to even have the model transformation. Let's call that B.
My apologies, I'm suffering some flu since the w/e atm, so a bit foggy-brained.
The way I'm trying to work out what a Lycanthrope would be like in the River Kingdoms is the basis for the concept. I tagged them as support cast and apart from the main cast of main races who exist in civilizations that war with each other. So in that sense it will be RP led, again to create some theatre of the mind additions: If you like an amusing on the side player initiative that is not antagonistic with the politics of the different groups but "diversionary": A welcome exploration of more of the River Kingdoms world. But the objectives are both bigger, to crowdforge this role into the game more and wider, to create a genuine cooperative around this character concept that works on the concept, works on a possible implementation of how Lycanthropes could be added and what feats could be developed for them, that grows this membership and possibly invests into it. It's also important to understand that such a group will require different formalization on different criteria to succeed and that too is perhaps the most important objective of all to succeed even if we fail to reach our final...
I'll retract my question, because it doesn't look like it's getting answered. Best of luck on getting traction for your idea. Even if I dislike it, and will fight against it, maybe GW will see things differently.
PS: You'd make a fantastic politician.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'll retract my question, because it doesn't look like it's getting answered. Best of luck on getting traction for your idea. Even if I dislike it, and will fight against it, maybe GW will see things differently.
PS: You'd make a fantastic politician.
I can lend a hand, you may like to style yourself as a Lycanthrope Slayer.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Marketing Mode:
The River Kingdoms "Wild Werewolf Project":-
Thanks to the support of Woodlands and Rivers Environmental Company and The Viridian Circle Charitable Foundation, AvenaOats has been running a captive werewolf project since December 2011 to help find out more about how this long-lost, predatory monster can enhance the landscape and aid the biodiversity of the region.
The first phase of the "Wild Werewolf Project" is complete and two years’ worth of valuable data has already been collected and analysed. A report on the Wild Werewolf Project so far will be available to download from our publications page (when the website is available).
Thanks to new funding from "Ustalav's Wildlife Rangers", the Wild Werewolf Project is continuing into its second phase. AvenaOats has been given a big stack of Skymetal (from a mysterious benefactor) to support the project for a further three years, during and beyond Early Enrollment. This money will be used to monitor the ecological effects the trial Werewolves are having on their environment and prey – from changes in the vegetation composition to effects on the populations of dwarves, humans and elves. Woodland diversity levels and quality will also continue to be monitored at the site and all results will be published in 2016.
=
Why a "Wild Werewolf Project"?
Werewolves are a vital missing link in the Riverlands ecosystem and forest and upland environment which is suffering from the loss of werewolf activity during the lunar cycle. In principle we support Goblinworks call for crowdforging to reintroduce races and note that the River Kingdoms is one of the few remaining regions in the Inner Sea not to reintroduce werewolves.
However we have no specific plans to reintroduce werewolves into the wild immediately. We would in principle like to see this come to pass but recognise that a great deal of work would need to be done before it could happen in practice.
The main aim of this project is experimentation and fact finding. It is thought that the werewolves will greatly enhance the danger value of the Crusader Road wild areas (for other players and only during the full moon) and they will in effect be used as a conservation management tool for three years.
AvenaOats has kept the Goblinworks authorities fully informed of the intentions of the "Wild Werewolf Project" and has complied with all of their stated requirements & regulations under Directive GW/A2014.
Future updates on the "Wild Werewolf Project" will be published after the next phase of the project is completed. Stay tuned! In the meantime for more information visit "lycanthropes: Friend or Foe?"
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Goblin Squad Member
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I figured I'd post this here. Werewolves are powerful creatures and any implementation should involve some of that power. They also need powerful drawbacks that make them a non-obvious choice for every player though. This is something that games like Elder Scrolls Online fail to do and it results in a massively overgrown population of werewolves.
1. You are flagged as heinous while in hybrid form (and for a short period of time after you go back to your human form), allowing all players to attack you free of consequence.
2. Werewolves are automatically entered into the werewolf faction and constantly flagged "for the cause" allowing players of opposing factions to hunt them at all times.
3. Werewolves cannot see any player or company information on non-hybrid form players while in hybrid form.
4. There is a substantial debuff that is applied if they remain in the proximity of a non-hybrid form player for too long. (Making it very hard for your non-werewolf buddies to scout for you and encouraging you to kill or flee from nearby players.)
5. All NPC-city guards automatically attack hybrid form werewolves on sight and there is an unrest penalty to player settlements and POI's that don't set their guards to do so as well.
6. There are certain special attacks and damage types which are only useable or do additional effects against werewolves and other monsters, that wouldn't effect a regular player the same way.
7. Werewolf skills require standing with the werewolf faction, and are only trainable at werewolf POIs.
8. There are incentives for opposing factions to destroy werewolf POIs.
9. Werewolf POIs are only constructable in a certain part of the map. (Possibly an area of Ustalav opened up in an expansion)
10. Most actions that generate werewolf faction standing are chaotic and/or evil.
11. There are certain things (random chance on taking damage, full moon night, etc.) that may involuntarily force a change into hybrid form.
12. There are other things (trueform spell, etc.) that may involantarily force a change into human form.
13. Hybrid and animal form take up a weapon slot. In addition any hybrid/animal form specific abilities not on the weapons bar aren't usable outside those forms.
PS. On loss of control, I think it can easily be incorporated into the lore that the Mark of Pharasma dulls or entirely negates the effects of powerful mind control magic (As we already know those types of spells won't be usable on players for full effects.) It's easy to say that same part of the spell that grants that also dulls or negates the complete loss of control from the lycanthropic affliction.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Remove:I’d say it would be prudent in lycan form to have some sort of animalistic rage affect that makes it impossible to tell friend from foe, or something like that, but mechanically in a computer game I’m not sure that...Maybe when the animal brain takes over the lycan just sees "Human" "Elf" where the rest of us see a character name and company/settlement details, and vision is in grey scale (background) with red scale targets (living creatures/victims).
A lycan could work with his buddies through Teamspeak to verify he wasn't attacking friendlies, but only at a cost of effectiveness.
Friendlies should be as much at risk as others. This sounds like a #@ refusal to make the plunge, not really play a lycanthrope, just a reason to make kills without rep hit. Sure can not stop players form using Teamspeak, this does not seem Fair Play for this.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Lam: That is the conclusion I would draw also. Yet I have an idea for the design that allows for this very necessary condition, but not onerously so. That is important. There is a precise balance required. But I agree part of the essence of the werewolf is precisely the indiscriminate savagery to friend or foe alike. To provide examples sampled from the lore available in wider popular culture: The movie "An American Werewolf In London" the test of this provided at one stage in the film fairly conclusively. Again, to provide another example, Harry Potter and The Prisoner of Azkaban to quote Hermione Granger:-
An Animagus is a wizard
who elects to turn into an animal.
A werewolf has no choice.
With each full moon...
...he no longer remembers who he is.
He'd kill his best friend.
The werewolf only responds
to the call of its own kind.
Noting the other distinction eloquently described by Miss Granger concerning elective choice vs no choice "...With each full moon...".
However as an extension and in keeping with our further design ideas, we keep the door ajar for variations on this core theme, however, for future space and creativity of our cooperative.
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Goblin Squad Member
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PS. On loss of control, I think it can easily be incorporated into the lore that the Mark of Pharasma dulls or entirely negates the effects of powerful mind control magic (As we already know those types of spells won't be usable on players for full effects.) It's easy to say that same part of the spell that grants that also dulls or negates the complete loss of control from the lycanthropic affliction.
Just to engage in a conversation about this aspect (to note an awareness of this point), it has also crossed my mind, the question:
>"What effect if any does the Mark of Pharasma have on our lycanthrope affliction?"
The way I begin to try to conceptualize it for our characters, is that our characters are still very much themselves (they all acquire the Mark) and it only a very temporary window of opportunity where they are "not themselves" so to speak! Hence on balance I'd motion that the Mark's influence applies, it's a bit like our character's essential nature remains unchanged, even if say they lose a limb or some other change while still under the Mark (perhaps it also protects against loss of limb also).
In any case, the devs mentioned on this subject the lore peeps at Paizo are conceptualizing the Mark (from your previous thread on the mark!):-
The intention is not that everyone has the Mark. PCs do, and maybe we'll have some NPCs that do, but certainly not all of them. Once we get a tutorial in, I think it's our plan to frame it around the basic setup of the Mark.
We do have a plan for what's going on, and Paizo has approved at least the generalities, if not yet all the particular plots we want to tie to it. We're planning to treat it as one of our lore mysteries that will guide our development of PvE content over time.
I think overview ties in exactly with what you say above, loss of limb and loss of mind are negated under the Mark of Pharasma at least "PERMANENTLY". I think however we can work with "temporary" variations and keep open the space for players to attack friend or foe via our the core essence of werewolves and our design ideas can work with that. But also as noted replying to Lam, there are further embellishments where we can suggest the Lycanthrope (Werewolf to be specific) is more fully in control. But this is stuff we can elaborate on after a core basis has been thrashed out more substantially.