Elemental damage, precision and Sneak Attack?

[FrozenLaughs]

I've been trying to find the answer to this all over tonight and although I've answered quite a few questions I *didn't* know I had, I still can't track this down:

I see confusion caused by the definition of Precision Damage seemingly being excluded from the rules; references to Sneak Attack damage being precision based (along with a few others) are still scattered throughout the book.

What is the ruling for elements and damage types applied with precision? Is "Precision" a unique type or simply a fluid descriptor now? Let's use a Level 6 Rogue for a simple example, 3d6 Sneak Attack:

I understand that, for instance, Sneak Attack with shocking grasp changes all of the precision damage to shock. The 3d6 becomes Shock damage, because the spell lacks any other type of descriptor.

By that logic then:

Is the Sneak Attack damage with a rapier then considered all Piercing? Is a creature immune to piercing damage immune to Sneak Attacks applied by a piercing weapon? Would an attack be 1d6 Piercing + 3d6 "precision", still effectively dealing damage, or 4d6 Piercing?

Would the same Rogue, weilding a Flaming Rapier deal:

A. 1d6 Piercing +1d6 Fire + 3d6 "precision"
B. 4d6 Piercing +1d6 Fire (precision is same as physical type, piercing)
C. 1d6 Piercing +4d6 Fire (precision is same as enchantment, Fire)

I recall 3.5 having a ruling that Sneak Attack damage becomes the type of damage of the attack, so Sneak Attack dice would all be fire (above example) despite the weapon still dealing that original base "physical" damage.

Tonight my Pathfinder Rogue used her Freezing Rapier to Sneak Attack a Winter Wolf (immune to cold) with Freezing activated (not knowing the immunity) and I only let her deal the 1d6 Piercing, and all hell broke loose because nowhere in the books does it explain any of this.

[Pupsocket]

As you pointed out, "precision" is a fluid descriptor. So is non-lethal, by the way; you can do non-lethal precision cold damage, for example.

The precision damage should apply to the kind of damage you're doing with your attack. In the case of the freezing rapier, that's piercing damage, with cold as a rider. You can't multiply the cold damage with a crit, or increase it with power attack either.

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

I would rule B.

The piercing damage seems like the primary damage source for the attack, with the fire/cold damage being an added bonus. Sneak attack should match the primary damage type, piercing in this case, so it should also be physical/piercing.

Plus, sneak attacks are conceptually similar to crits, and we know that rapier damage can be doubled, but the bonus fire damage cannot. Therefore it makes sense to me that sneak would add to the rapier damage, not to the fire/cold damage.

I suppose you could also rule that the sneak attack damage is half rapier damage, half cold damage (and in this case just roll the sneak attack damage separately and halve it before applying it to the wolf), but that seems like more trouble than its worth to me.

[Dekalinder]

the answere is

D: 1d6 piercing + 1d6 fire + 3d6 precision piercing

Against a moster immune to precision damage you only deal the first and the second amount. Against a moster immune to piercing, you only deal fire.

[Axl]

The answer is B.

To Dekalinder: the presence/absence of precision damage should be determined before any damage dice are rolled. Against a monster immune to to precision, you roll 1d6 pierce plus 1d6 fire. You do not roll 1d6 pierce, 1d6 fire, and 3d6 precision pierce, and subsequently declare immunity to precision. (Well, you shouldn't. When I played a rogue in a tabletop game, I used red sneak attack dice, a green corrosive [acid] die and a white base damage die in case the GM forgot to tell me in advance.)

If your target has, say, DR 10/bludgeon, you will subtract the 10 points of DR from the total of the 4d6 pierce. You don't subtract 10 from the 1d6 pierce, and again from the 3d6 precision pierce. If the 10 points of DR reduces the total of the 4d6 pierce to 0 or lower, then the fire damage does not take effect either.

[Dekalinder]

You are wrong axl. The DM is not supposed to tell you the eventual immunity of a moster. Instead, the player have to differentiate the varius damage is dealing to let the DM adjudicate what portion of it the moster is taking, and how many times to apply DR.
OFC, after the first attack is completely fine for the DM to tell the player that the moster is clearly taking less damage than what he though, leaving the player to actually wonder what's the actual cause.

[FLite]

FrozenLaughs wrote:

Would the same Rogue, weilding a Flaming Rapier deal:

A. 1d6 Piercing +1d6 Fire + 3d6 "precision"
B. 4d6 Piercing +1d6 Fire (precision is same as physical type, piercing)
C. 1d6 Piercing +4d6 Fire (precision is same as enchantment, Fire)

1d6 Piercing +1d6 fire + 3d6 (precision piercing.)

neak attack adds 3d6 to the rapier, and fire adds 1d6 to the rapier. Sneak attack does not add damage to the flaming enhancement.

Shocking Grasp

shocking grase damage + 3d6 (electrical piercing.)

[Claxon]

Sneak attack with weapons is always the same kind of damage as the weapon would normally deal. Enhancement like flaming, frost, or shocking are rider effects. They are not enhanced by sneak attack.

Spells that deal sneak attack damage would deal the same damage as the spell would normally deal.

[FrozenLaughs]

Thanks guys, I really appreciate your help. Sneak Attack damage is always the same type as the the weapon, and not its enchantments.

[TheBulletKnight]

Also, just pointing it out, you can only get sneak attack damage on a spell if you have the arcane trickster capstone ability. It does state in it that sneak attack damage with spells does the same type of damage as the spell.

Obviously I'm not saying any damage with magic weapons deals the precision damage as magic, juststating for the purpose of the ability.