An Illusion Question

[Desril]

Just came from the Ask James Jacobs' thread with this question and his response was to try again over here and flag it for an FAQ, so let's see what that gets me.

Anyway, the question;

At what point does an illusion allow a saving throw? What counts as "interacting" with an illusion?

To clarify further, here's a few specific questions;

Illusory Wall - Does seeing the wall count as interacting with it and allow a save? Or does touching it? If you need to touch it to interact with it, wouldn't your hand pass through it and negate the need for a save? Or if you touched it would you get a save and, if you failed, not pass through it because your subconscious prevented you from trying to go through the wall?

Major Image - It's an upgrade from Silent Image because it produces heat and sound etc, but doesn't that make it easier to interact with? Wouldn't feeling the heat and hearing the sound of the illusion be interacting and force a save that wouldn't apply to Silent Image? Or would a Silent Image that doesn't give off heat or sound force a save in proximity due to the lack of those things, while Major Image wouldn't because the illusion is more complete and fools those senses?

[seebs]

I've never seen anyone consider merely seeing an illusion count as interacting with it. Or otherwise sensing it. The assumption is that you have to do something that would have different effects for an illusion or a real thing, or at least that forces the illusion to react in some way.

[Matrix Dragon]

seebs wrote:

I've never seen anyone consider merely seeing an illusion count as interacting with it. Or otherwise sensing it. The assumption is that you have to do something that would have different effects for an illusion or a real thing, or at least that forces the illusion to react in some way.

Actually, one of my GMs considers seeing an illusion interacting with it and gives everything saving throws. That's why this sort of thing needs a faq.

[Ravingdork]

You may want to change your thread title. Asking for FAQ hits in the title is a sure way to be ignored by the developers.

[seebs]

Matrix Dragon: That GM is a twit. Pretty sure there's tons of examples before indicating that merely-seeing is not "interacting".

[Finlanderboy]

There is a magical chain shirt that appears as a breastplate. It specifically states that it allows a save only AFTER they hit you.

I agree with any DM allowing a save just by looking at it is most liekly an adversarial DM.

[Ravingdork]

In v3.5, game developers made it clearly known that "interacting" with an illusion required the expenditure of an action. Therefore, touching it, trying to start a conversation with it, or closely observing it all forced a save.

I see no reason for that to have changed considering the wording is identical.

[Owly]

I'd rule that "anything where it behaves unlike its real counterpart" to you, would count as "interaction". Examples:
- You notice someone's body part intersect through the wall
- You pay attention, and notice arrows going through the wall
(perception checks on the above)
- You touch it, and it's not real, though your eyes tell you it is.

Is it an illusionary pit? Do you not have time to walk up and examine it? You say you just have to run over the top of it? Make a will save, or your sense of self-preservation keeps you from making that run.

Here's an example of a real-life Will Save, straight from the movie "Lawrence of Arabia"... hold a lit match while a friend does the same. Whoever drops the match first, loses.

Of course the flame is going to burn you. Of course it's going to hurt. How hurt will you be? A blister on your finger and thumb? It won't kill you of course. What's the big deal? Think you can hold on longer than your friend? The brain and body often stand in the way of the mind.

"Of course it hurts. The trick is NOT MINDING that it hurts." - Peter O'Toole as Lawrence of Arabia.

So Illusions. The game wouldn't be much fun if illusions were impenetrable and unbeatable, and everyone would play an illusionist if the illusions were so.

Interaction - using your own senses to defeat an illusion. This could be casual (perception check as a free action) or it could be active (perception check as a standard action "concentrating"), depending on how much your GM likes you.

And yeah, Major Image is a tougher illusion to beat, because it fools more senses more completely. It's a higher level spell. Still, if a PC knows what to look for, she can beat it.

[Rikkan]

I've never seen anyone interpret the illusion rules in the same way. I believe they could use a total rewrite.

I do know just hearing ghost sound is already enough to receive a will save:

Ghost sound wrote:

Anyone who hears a ghost sound receives a Will save to disbelieve.

So I can definitely see someone interpreting that as seeing an illusion is also interacting with it enough to gain a save.

[Lifat]

Rikkan wrote:

I've never seen anyone interpret the illusion rules in the same way. I believe they could use a total rewrite.

I do know just hearing ghost sound is already enough to receive a will save:

Ghost sound wrote:

Anyone who hears a ghost sound receives a Will save to disbelieve.

So I can definitely see someone interpreting that as seeing an illusion is also interacting with it enough to gain a save.

I completely agree with you that most illusions need a rewrite because they are so open to interpretation. I usually avoid illusions with interpretation like the plague because depending on GM it can either be awesome or useless.

About the ghost sound thing... Why would they? This specific spell has a specific clause that in my reading runs counter to general rules, ie a specific rule, which means that general rule is that you need more than casually observing an illusion... At least that is how I'd read and judge it.

[Ubercroz]

The Illusion section of the CRB says that simply "encountering" an illusion does not constitute "interacting" with it.

If you have a GM who says seeing it counts as "interacting" then point him to the rulebook. In regards to interaction, it says careful study or touching it (I believe).

I don't think there is a lot of wiggle room on seeing an illusion specifically NOT being an interaction with it.

I guess I don't find the Illusions rules as challenging as other folks out there. They seem to be pretty specific. I think it is people being unfamiliar with them that causes the problem.

While the rules do not specify what the action is, it is MORE than just seeing it.

[seebs]

Rikkan wrote:

I've never seen anyone interpret the illusion rules in the same way. I believe they could use a total rewrite.

I do know just hearing ghost sound is already enough to receive a will save:

Ghost sound wrote:

Anyone who hears a ghost sound receives a Will save to disbelieve.

So I can definitely see someone interpreting that as seeing an illusion is also interacting with it enough to gain a save.

That is the exact opposite of how rules work.

If just seeing an illusion gave you a save, this sentence wouldn't need to be there.

[LazarX]

Rikkan wrote:

I've never seen anyone interpret the illusion rules in the same way. I believe they could use a total rewrite.

I do know just hearing ghost sound is already enough to receive a will save:

Ghost sound wrote:

Anyone who hears a ghost sound receives a Will save to disbelieve.

So I can definitely see someone interpreting that as seeing an illusion is also interacting with it enough to gain a save.

Be cautious in making general statements from specific spell text. Keep in mind that the text of ghost sound is written to reflect it's limited power as a Zero level spell that can be cast at will as opposed to a higher level spell with limited castings.

[Rikkan]

LazarX wrote:

Rikkan wrote:

I've never seen anyone interpret the illusion rules in the same way. I believe they could use a total rewrite.

I do know just hearing ghost sound is already enough to receive a will save:

Ghost sound wrote:

Anyone who hears a ghost sound receives a Will save to disbelieve.

So I can definitely see someone interpreting that as seeing an illusion is also interacting with it enough to gain a save.

Be cautious in making general statements from specific spell text. Keep in mind that the text of ghost sound is written to reflect it's limited power as a Zero level spell that can be cast at will as opposed to a higher level spell with limited castings.

You misunderstood me, perhaps I was unclear. I did not mean to say that I interpret the illusion rules in that manner.

What I was trying to say was that the illusion rules are ambiguous. And it makes sense for people to look at examples when the rules are not clear. And when someone then encounters ghost sound, I can see how they think the rules for illusions support that interpretation.

[seebs]

I can't see how they'd conclude that. If a specific spell says it behaves in a particular way, and other spells don't, the obvious inference is that the other spells don't.