Non-Standard Lantern Bearer Build; Check My Feats?

[Rudy2]

So, this is a second character in my no 6/9 casters party (the other being the Dwarven Monk (Contemplative, Sensei, Ki Mystic, Qinggong) you may have seen).

He's going into Lantern Bearer, cause the party needs the spells from it, but he also needs to handle the trapfinding, stealth, and a number of other skills, as well as being a serious DPR archer. I've hit upon the following build, and am looking for suggestions as to anything I've overlooked, as I've never built an archer before. This is only built to level 16; general suggestions as to what to do after that are welcome as well.

The trapfinding aspect is essential, so I can't get rid of that entirely, but I'm willing to consider plenty of variations.

The Build:

Ranger (Freebooter, Trapper) 1 /
Paladin (Divine Hunter, Oath Against Chaos) 1 /
Fighter (Weapon Master) 4 /
Lantern Bearer 10

Half-Elf
Racial Bonuses: +2 Dex
Dual-Minded: +2 to Will saves
Elven Immunities: Immune to sleep, +2 to saves v. enchantment
Keen Senses, Low-light vision
Arcane Training (Wizard): Can use spell trigger and spell-completion items as a 1st level wizard.

Str 12 Dex 17 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 14 Cha 7 (after racial adjustments)

1. Fighter 1. Feat: Point-Blank Shot. FBF: Rapid Shot
2. Paladin 1. Smite Chaos, Detect Chaos, Precise Shot
3. Ranger 1. Trapfinding, Freebooter's Bane, Track, Wild Empathy. Feat: Weapon Finesse
4. Fighter 2. FBF: Weapon Focus (Longbow)
5. Fighter 3. Weapon Training (Longbow), Feat: Deadly Aim
6. Fighter 4. FBF: Weapon Specialization (Longbow); Fighter Retraining: Weapon Finesse to Point Blank Master.
7: Lantern Bearer 1. Feat: Manyshot
8: Lantern Bearer 2.
9: Lantern Bearer 3. Elven Accuracy. Feat: Arcane Strike*
10: Lantern Bearer 4.
11: Lantern Bearer 5. Feat: Improved Precise Shot
12: Lantern Bearer 6.
13: Lantern Bearer 7. Feat: Staggering Critical???
14: Lantern Bearer 8.
15: Lantern Bearer 9. Feat: Quicken Spell Like Ability (Dispel Magic)
16: Lantern Bearer 10.

*Per this, the caster level of Lantern Bearer works for Arcane Strike.

Input Appreciated! FIXED

[Rudy2]

D'oh! Already found an error...

Fixed; I put in the old version.

If you're wondering, the Paladin level uses Oath Against Chaos because there is another Paladin in the Party to detect evil.

[EsperMagic]

I still think the int is too high when it could easily be handled by a headband and Im not a fan of the trapper archetype. But otherwise it looks solid.

[Rudy2]

Yeah, you're right about the int. I've actually found what I think is a better build, though. I call it the "Quasi-Zen" archer. =D. He uses 3 levels of Zen Archer to take advantage of the boatload of feats they get, and to make himself wisdom dominant, but only uses Flurry of Bows until he gets Manyshot. I think it works really well:

Spoiler:

Str 14 Dex 15 Con 12 Int 13 Wis 17 Cha 7 (after racial adjustments)
* Will need a +2 dex item by 7th level to get Manyshot then. If not possible, then switch Manyshot and Snap Shot.
* Will need a +2 int item by 13th level to get 4th level spells.
* All leveling points into Wisdom.

1. Monk 1 MBF: Point-Blank Shot, Feat: Precise Shot
2. Monk 2 MBF: Rapid Shot, WF (Longbow)
3. Monk 3 Zen Archery, Point Blank Master, Fast Movement. Feat: Improved Initiative
4. Ranger 1 Trapfinding, Freebooter's Bane, Track, Wild Empathy.
5. Fighter 1 FBF: Deadly Aim, Feat: Arcane Strike
6. Fighter 2 FBF: Combat Reflexes.
7. Lantern Bearer 1. Feat: Manyshot
8. Lantern Bearer 2.
9. Lantern Bearer 3. Feat: Snap Shot
10. Lantern Bearer 4. BF: Elven Accuracy
11. Lantern Bearer 5. Feat: Improved Snap Shot
12. Lantern Bearer 6.
13. Lantern Bearer 7. Feat: Improved Precise Shot
14. Fighter 3. Weapon Training (Longbow) +1
15. Lantern Bearer 8. Feat: Quicken Spell Like Ability (Dispel Magic)
16. Lantern Bearer 9.
17. Lantern Bearer 10. Feat: Clustered Shots
18. Fighter 4. FBF: Weapon Specialization (Longbow)
19. Monk 4. Feat: Deific Obedience (Erastil)
20. Evangelist 1 {This is just to get the amazing Erastil Evangelist lvl 20 boon: Add your wisdom modifier to attack rolls and damage with a longbow within 30 ft.}

Traits:
Regional (Taldor): Wealthy Dabbler: 'detect magic', 'prestidigitation', 1/day each, CL 1 {This is so we can take Arcane Strike earlier}
Race: Elven Reflexes: +2 Initiative

Note that with 3 levels of monk, the Monk's Robes will boost AC by 2, and unarmed damage by two steps, so it's something to aim for.

I could drop the int to 12 instead of 13, but honestly, I've got nothing better to do with that single point. The dex is at 15 so that you only need a +2 dex item to grab Manyshot at level 7/9.

Had so many feats that I stuck in Improved Initiative at level 3 as sort of a default choice. Not sure if Toughness would be better? Or Deflect Arrows? Open and grateful to suggestions there, along with anything else.

[Dimminsy]

Improved Initiative is never a bad choice imo if you have free space, or shoring up a weak save with the appropriate feat. Kind of curious though, why go after Deadly Aim but never Weapon Focus and Greater? Since you will be attacking with many arrows from Manyshot, hitting 10+% more of the time would increase damage more compared to the 2/4+ damage from Deadly Aim after you already have bonuses from other sources.

Also, unless you're using the 13 Int to qualify for a prereq, I'd put it into Con instead. Gives you a 1 point buffer before you start losing hp from Con damage. Marginal, but still a benefit.

One more thing, I don't think taking one level in a class at level 20 would grant you the level 20 capstone. I believe you have to take 20 levels in the class for that, not just have 20 character levels.

[Rudy2]

This guy has very strong saves thanks to the Monk levels and the fact that he's wisdom dominant, so I'm not too worried about that.

I have Weapon Focus, I just abbreviated it as WF in the list. It's at level 2. (Zen Archer gets it for free then, replacing Evasion. I'd rather have the evasion, of course, but you take what you're given :) )

Greater Weapon Focus I don't have the fighter levels to qualify for.

Good idea on the Int/Con!! Will change.

The way the Deific Obedience feat works is that you get certain boons at character levels 12, 16 and 20, depending on whether you have any levels in the Evangelist, Exalted or Sentinel classes. So it's the combination of my having a level in Evangelist and having Character level 20 that gets me the boon.

[Rudy2]

And Erastil's Deific Obedience boons are here.

The way it would work in this case is a bit weird. At level 19, when I took the feat, I'd gain the first two boons listed under Exalted, because those are the ones you get if you don't have any levels in Evangelist or Sentinel. I wouldn't gain the third one, because I wouldn't have 20 hit dice.

At level 20, when I took a level in Evangelist, I would lose the Exalted boons, and gain the Evangelist boons. All three, because I now have 20 hit dice.

[Dimminsy]

True, but one can never have enough Fort or Will lol.

Ahh, I saw Deadly Aim and then ctrl+f to look up Weapon Focus, so I missed it. If you're supposed to be a dedicated archer skill monkey, it would really just depend on what you're more scared of. If you're more scared of traps, Evasion, if you're more scared of enemies not dying, Weapon Focus.

Ahh, right, I forgot about that requirement because if I'm looking for buffing weapons I'm already playing some form of a fighter or has fighter-equivalent bonuses. Maybe I'm just paranoid, but personally I would take Weapon Spec over Deadly Aim unless you could practically guarantee you'll be hitting on your lowest attacks on a 4 or greater at higher levels. Negatives to hit just make me sad. Better yet, get Hammer the Gap to deal more damage than Weapon Spec and not lose to hit! Five hits would be +0/+1/+2/+3/+4 if all hit for +10, same as Weapon Spec, and it only increases if you get more attacks than that per round. I can definitely see the merits of Deadly Aim, I'm just wary of the negatives.

No problem!

Mmmm, that's a very interesting point. Still unsure, but seems plausible. Then again, level 20 is rarely reached, and if so not for very long afterwards, so it wouldn't make that much of a difference lol.

[Rudy2]

I can't actually choose to keep Evasion without giving up the entire Zen Archer archetype, which I definitely can't do for this build. The loss of evasion is regrettable, but unavoidable.

The reason I'm not taking Weapon Specialization until later is that it requires 4 levels of fighter, so taking it any sooner would mean delaying the Lantern Bearer prestige class, which I don't think is worth it.

Deadly Aim is switchable, so I'm not too concerned about the losses to hit; turn it off when you're fighting something with a high AC, for example, and just rely on the damage boost from Arcane Strike.

Hammer the Gap is tempting, but I'm skeptical of assuming hitting with each shot, and I think there's enough damaging power in this build with what I've got. I'm actually thinking about dropping the Weapon Specialization for something else, like Greater Snap Shot, or Critical Focus. At the level I would take Weapon Specialization, each arrow would have at least +4 damage from strength, +4 from Arcane Strike, +5 enhancement, and potentially +10 from Deadly Aim. Could be better to get Critical Focus and make sure I confirm my threats rather than add another +2 onto those numbers. Not sure yet.

[Dimminsy]

It would be good to know the starting level because that might change the order/optimization of feat/class choices.

Ya, those pesky "only fighter feat" reqs rear their heads again lol. I can't say for sure the most beneficial order of class choice, so there's some room for you to decide based on the DM and party requirements.

Like I said, I'm personally wary of negatives to hit, especially scaling ones.

It is an if, and it only pays off if you hit with at least 5 attacks, but if you're not taking any penalties to hit you're more likely to fit the bill. Critical feats on a only nat 20 weapon seem to be subpar to me. A +2 at that point when you have access to high level feats doesn't look like a good tradeoff, and tactics usually beat an extra 10-15ish damage per round.

[LazarX]

Rudy2 wrote:

This guy has very strong saves thanks to the Monk levels and the fact that he's wisdom dominant, so I'm not too worried about that.

I have Weapon Focus, I just abbreviated it as WF in the list. It's at level 2. (Zen Archer gets it for free then, replacing Evasion. I'd rather have the evasion, of course, but you take what you're given :) )

Greater Weapon Focus I don't have the fighter levels to qualify for.

Good idea on the Int/Con!! Will change.

The way the Deific Obedience feat works is that you get certain boons at character levels 12, 16 and 20, depending on whether you have any levels in the Evangelist, Exalted or Sentinel classes. So it's the combination of my having a level in Evangelist and having Character level 20 that gets me the boon.

You still don't get the capstone, because you don't have 20 effective levels in the class. You've got all those PrC levels and the other class levels getting in the way

[Rudy2]

That's really not how it works. Please read the description of the Deific Obedience feat and note that the description says you get the abilities based on your hit dice. You *can* get the powers earlier through the Evangelist, Sentinel and Exalted prestige classes, but you get them at the 12, 16 and 20 hit dice listed directly in the feat description otherwise.

[EsperMagic]

He's right.

Benefit: Each deity requires a different daily obedience, but all obediences take no more than 1 hour per day to perform. Once you’ve performed the obedience, you gain the benefit of a special ability or resistance as indicated in the “Obedience” entry for the god to whom you performed the obedience.

If you have at least 12 Hit Dice, you also gain the first boon granted by your deity upon undertaking your obedience. If you have at least 16 Hit Dice, you also gain the deity’s second boon. If you have 20 Hit Dice or more, you also gain the deity’s third boon. Unless a specific duration or number of uses per day is listed, a boon’s effects are constant.

Certain prestige classes (see page 198) gain access to these boons at lower levels as a benefit of their prestige class. If you have no levels in one of these prestige classes, you gain the boons marked as exalted boons. If you later take levels in sentinel or evangelist, you lose access to the exalted boons and gain access to the new boons appropriate to your class.

If you ever fail to perform a daily obedience, you lose all access to the benefits and boons granted by this feat until you next perform the obedience.

The reason for the one level of evangelist is just to get that grouping of boons over the exalted groupiing. But otherwise it is all HD-dependent.

[Rudy2]

Okay, I think I have what is the final form of the build, unless someone points out something crucial I've missed. The only thing I'm undecided on is some feats at levels 19 and 20; input there appreciated, too.

The Build:

1. Monk 1 MBF: Point-Blank Shot, Feat: Precise Shot
2. Monk 2 MBF: Rapid Shot, WF (Longbow)
3. Monk 3 Zen Archery, Point Blank Master, Fast Movement. Feat: Arcane Strike
4. Ranger 1 Trapfinding, Freebooter's Bane, Track, Wild Empathy.
5. Fighter 1 FBF: Deadly Aim, Feat: Deific Obedience (Erastil)
6. Fighter 2 FBF: Combat Reflexes.
7. Lantern Bearer 1. Feat: Snap Shot
8. Lantern Bearer 2.
9. Lantern Bearer 3. Feat: Manyshot
10. Lantern Bearer 4. BF: Elven Accuracy
11. Lantern Bearer 5. Feat: Improved Snap Shot
12. Lantern Bearer 6.
13. Lantern Bearer 7. Feat: Improved Precise Shot
14. Fighter 3. Weapon Training (Longbow) +1
15. Lantern Bearer 8. Feat: Quicken Spell Like Ability (Dispel Magic)
16. Lantern Bearer 9.
17. Monk 4 Feat: Clustered Shots
18. Evangelist 1
19. Evangelist 2 Aligned Class: Monk 5. Feat: ???Monkey Style??? No obvious choice here; perhaps a saves booster.
20. Evangelist 3 Aligned Class: Monk 6. Weapon Specialization (Longbow) from Zen Archer. Bonus Monk Feat: One of Far Shot/Dodge/Deflect Arrows

Note that Deific Obedience is taken much earlier, at level 5.

The major change is, after long thought, I decided to get rid of the last level of Lantern Bearer. It doesn't advance the SLAs, nor does it provide any saving throw bonuses. The capstone 1/day self-only 'holy aura' is nice, don't get me wrong, but not as nice as it seemed at first. The AC and resistance bonuses won't stack with equipment I'd already have at that point, the saving throw for blindness would be laughably easy to make for a CR 17+ creature (something like DC 22 Fortitude). The only useful thing it actually does is the SR 25 against spells from evil creatures. That's good, but not good enough for a 1/day standard-action ability to delay my other abilities for, especially since the saving throws for this character are very, very solid.