Arrows / charges?


Pathfinder Online

Goblin Squad Member

So, the alpha docs say that you cannot refill your quiver or charge stone during combat. Refilling out of combat is not addressed. Do you have to actually carry a consumable supply of arrows which is depleted as you refill after each battle, or are you assumed to have an infinite ammo supply in your pockets that just isn't accessible during the heat of battle?

Goblin Squad Member

I would hope for arrows to be constructable. Being able to change from standard arrows, to say, cold iron arrows, or what have you, has always been an advantage and skill for archer type characters. That aside, I don't recall any information out and about currently clarifying this. From what I've seen of Alpha game play, it seems things are instantly restored when you aren't in "combat mode" so to speak.

Goblinworks Game Designer

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Ammo is a crafted item. It is designed as a way to get additional keywords (e.g., Cold Iron is on the arrow, not the bow), and the plan is for the + of the ammo to add to your base damage (so +5 arrows essentially get you an additional keyword of damage). Your equipped quiver/charge gem can hold a certain amount, and this capacity gets better as you get better containers.

The plan is to have it automatically refill with ammo of the same type from your inventory when you're out of combat. But if you don't have any extra ammo in your inventory, it will not refill. There will also be feats like the Rapid Reload utility that let you move a certain number of ammo pieces from inventory into the container so you can refill a limited amount during combat.

None of this has been programmed yet, so the mechanics may change as we figure out how hard it's going to be to get it working right and to let you switch between different ammo types.

Goblin Squad Member

Excellent! This sounds as good as I could have hoped. I can't wait to see this get implemented.

Goblin Squad Member

Are archers going to have to carry an absurd amour of ammo? or will there be some sort of retrieval mechanic?

Goblin Squad Member

Stephen Cheney wrote:
Your equipped quiver/charge gem...

Should we read this as an indication that casters will also use up a consumable to power their cantrips/orisons? I've been wondering what my Apprentice's Charge Gem + 2 will be used for...

Goblin Squad Member

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If an archer goes out and fires 300 shots and runs out of ammo, then he should have picked his targets more carefully, or be prepared to enter melee. Or run away. Or hide. Or have hired additional help, or evaded.

(Carrying more than 6 in real life is absurdly difficult, as a typical bow mounted quiver only carries 6, you might pack in another dozen in camp, but if you miss with your first shot, your target has fled...but this is not real life. Still, a reasonable limit should be implemented. Maybe 2 dozen in a large shoulder quiver?)

Grand Lodge

I think 20 to a quiver (Easily retrievable for combat) is a good number. Add in some non-combat reloading animation that triggers if you aren't full after combat, and make a simple function of right clicking on the Quiver in combat would drop you from attacking for a variable time (Depending on what feats you bought) from 5-10 seconds to "refill" your quiver.

Using the tier system idea that each tier is 50% better than the previous, a T1 Quiver would hold 20, T2 at 30, and T3 at 45 arrows, seems fair.

Goblin Squad Member

Most traditional back quivers I've seen hold 18-24, so the standard 20 seems appropriate. I've seen plenty that hold more though. I used to have a two stage three pocket that held 40 (24 in main pouch, 8 in each side pocket).

The problem with the 300 shots analogy is that it has to be balanced against damage of the arrows. Hunting, I've never had to hit with more than one arrow to take down a target (I've missed and used more than one arrow before of course, but that's not what I'm talking about). In this game, I expect arrows to be far less deadly than in real life (and therefore require more to take targets down).

I would like to see arrows be retrievable.

Goblin Squad Member

Ah, but we live in a world of magic. Buy a Efficient Quiver when you can.

Crash_00 wrote:
I would like to see arrows be retrievable.

A percentage of them sure.

Goblin Squad Member

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It's a game. There are trade-offs in games. If arrows are too powerful, everyone will use them, if they are too much of a hassle, nobody will use them. They need to be a balance of power and convenience that makes it a colourful and meaningful choice to use in the game. Reality has to be checked at the door.

Goblin Squad Member

Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:
Reality has to be checked at the door.

True to a degree. I like the requirement of crafting, using, and retreiving a percentage of arrows spent. It keeps the crafters employed, causes encumbrance to the user, is dangerous to the target, and the arrows can possibly be retrieved depending on the circumstances of the engagement. There should be a reasonable limit to the number of shots available to the user to keep game balance. The previous discussion (above) showing maybe 24 (4 on bow, 20 in quiver) might be the T1 total, with more as the users skill increases and gear improves.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Crash_00 wrote:

Most traditional back quivers I've seen hold 18-24, so the standard 20 seems appropriate. I've seen plenty that hold more though. I used to have a two stage three pocket that held 40 (24 in main pouch, 8 in each side pocket).

The problem with the 300 shots analogy is that it has to be balanced against damage of the arrows. Hunting, I've never had to hit with more than one arrow to take down a target (I've missed and used more than one arrow before of course, but that's not what I'm talking about). In this game, I expect arrows to be far less deadly than in real life (and therefore require more to take targets down).

I would like to see arrows be retrievable.

Buy durable arrows. Problem solved.


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In fairness, it's worth noting that Hit Points are sometimes interpreted as "survival points"—meaning you're actually assumed to be dodging what doesn't kill you. It's the last arrow—the last eighteen points of damage—that hits you in the chest and takes you down.

Making arrows unrealistically plentiful is definitely what must be done, though I would like to see a limit on how many can "stack". Arrow loss should somewhat synch with the healing abilities of the cleric, so neither the archer nor the injuries are the sole reason to head back to town.

Goblin Squad Member

LazarX wrote:
Crash_00 wrote:

Most traditional back quivers I've seen hold 18-24, so the standard 20 seems appropriate. I've seen plenty that hold more though. I used to have a two stage three pocket that held 40 (24 in main pouch, 8 in each side pocket).

The problem with the 300 shots analogy is that it has to be balanced against damage of the arrows. Hunting, I've never had to hit with more than one arrow to take down a target (I've missed and used more than one arrow before of course, but that's not what I'm talking about). In this game, I expect arrows to be far less deadly than in real life (and therefore require more to take targets down).

I would like to see arrows be retrievable.

Buy durable arrows. Problem solved.

Durable arrows have heartier shafts. For a given bow pull they fire slower and are more visible, but can be used with very high strength bows.

Traveling slower, they have less energy, same momentum,. More mass per cross section, drag has proportionally less effect.

Thus damage reduction is less over distance, but range is less due to lower speed and "falling" with time -- indirect fire can correct, but only to a point.

Slower speed and greater visibility makes easier to deflect or dodge (if dex is high enough and dodge missiles is trained). This may be different for extreme indirect fire.

Much easier to find on ground as less likely to be sticking in targets. 8-(

Goblin Squad Member

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So far in alpha I have seen steel arrow recipes, cold iron arrow recipes, broadhead arrow recipes, and silver arrow recipes.

Goblin Squad Member

Hardin Steele wrote:

If an archer goes out and fires 300 shots and runs out of ammo, then he should have picked his targets more carefully, or be prepared to enter melee. Or run away. Or hide. Or have hired additional help, or evaded.

(Carrying more than 6 in real life is absurdly difficult, as a typical bow mounted quiver only carries 6, you might pack in another dozen in camp, but if you miss with your first shot, your target has fled...but this is not real life. Still, a reasonable limit should be implemented. Maybe 2 dozen in a large shoulder quiver?)

I was thinking that there would be around 2000 or so shots per adventure, I would say that covers about 100 enemies on your own. I'm guessing an adventure to clear a hex shouldn't require 50 trips back to camp, and will involve a thousand or so enemies.

Health bars screw up any kind of realistic logic when it comes to archery in video games.

If you want more realism, bows need to be ridiculously OP in comparison to melee weapons so you don't have to fire as many arrows.

Goblin Squad Member

Valkenr wrote:
Are archers going to have to carry an absurd amour of ammo? or will there be some sort of retrieval mechanic?

Or some enterprising crafters making lots of Quivers of plenty. Either way, I would hate to see archers and mages limited by consumables so that they need to head back to a town to purchase said consumables every few kills.

Goblin Squad Member

Bear in mind that Power can only be refreshed at a campfire or tavern, giving us a limited use "dailies" mechanic, so you'll have to break from adventuring every so often anyway. Stocking up on arrows at the same time shouldn't be too much of a hardship.

With that said, it may turn out that for very-long-distance raiding parties who will be out of range of logistical supply lines, you need to take characters who aren't ammo dependent. (Or plan ahead and find some friendly markets along the way.)

Goblin Squad Member

Guurzak wrote:

Bear in mind that Power can only be refreshed at a campfire or tavern, giving us a limited use "dailies" mechanic, so you'll have to break from adventuring every so often anyway. Stocking up on arrows at the same time shouldn't be too much of a hardship.

With that said, it may turn out that for very-long-distance raiding parties who will be out of range of logistical supply lines, you need to take characters who aren't ammo dependent. (Or plan ahead and find some friendly markets along the way.)

Or conserve your ammo until the actual raid is in process. Don't waste them on goblins along the way.

Goblin Squad Member

Black Silver of The Veiled, T7V wrote:
Guurzak wrote:

Bear in mind that Power can only be refreshed at a campfire or tavern, giving us a limited use "dailies" mechanic, so you'll have to break from adventuring every so often anyway. Stocking up on arrows at the same time shouldn't be too much of a hardship.

With that said, it may turn out that for very-long-distance raiding parties who will be out of range of logistical supply lines, you need to take characters who aren't ammo dependent. (Or plan ahead and find some friendly markets along the way.)

Or conserve your ammo until the actual raid is in process. Don't waste them on goblins along the way.

What? Let the melee have a chance? Blasphemy!!!

Goblin Squad Member

Jiminy wrote:
... I would hate to see archers and mages limited by consumables so that they need to head back to a town to purchase said consumables every few kills.

Ryan has often talked about "consumables" being almost the foundation of the economy. I expect every Role will require a significant number of consumables in order to operate at peak efficiency. Although I can't imagine it would ever require a trip back to town "every few kills".

... what I anticipate we will create is a system where you need to combine a consumable resource with your weapons and armor to get maximum effect from them, and those resources won't survive the trip to the grave. So crafters will make lots of those resources instead of making lots of swords and armor sets. It's unlikely that someone will be just a guy who makes swords. It's much more likely that guy will make sword consumables, and the occasional sword on commission.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Jiminy wrote:
... I would hate to see archers and mages limited by consumables so that they need to head back to a town to purchase said consumables every few kills.
Ryan has often talked about "consumables" being almost the foundation of the economy. I expect every Role will require a significant number of consumables in order to operate at peak efficiency. Although I can't imagine it would ever require a trip back to town "every few kills".

I'm okay with this, as long as my character is not limited to carrying 20 or 40 arrows (or charges in a charge stone), as this will only last for two or three small engagements or one larger engagement (a siege or a dragon for example).

If we can carry hundreds of these consumables (arrows/charges) then the problem is solved.

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