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Is it just my group, or is it common for pathfinder groups to not actually use a spell's full description and effect? By which I mean, fireball not catching you and your gear on fire or doing anything else other than just damage?
I know I try to use every bit of the rule when I play, but for things like that, some people don't realize everything that the spell does, especially if it has been changed from 3.5. Coincidentally, I don't think fireball catches your gear on fire, just unattended items.
Or RisusTired of D&D clones though TriOmegaZero.Fair enough. You might look at Minimus.
Either works.
Here's another reason I am, at least for now because I can't tell the future, opting out of pathfinder. How fast is this game getting on par with 3.X supplement bloat? There is simply getting to be too much to deal with now. I am aware of things like the SRD but still it's just too much. You can barely do anything without someone saying "Well in this supplement here it says that is supposed to work this way while this book here says if you do that, this also happens." And then I have to get the Tylenol. I tell you, all the arguing I have had to deal with from people about multi-book spanning RAW and RAI has actually caused me to have to get fillings from the tooth grinding just so I don't deck someone. Yes I have considered sending the bill to my group.oh come on! 50+ books for 3.5, 15 for pathfinder...
It was closer to 20. Unless you count the setting-specific stuff, in which case it hit fifty. But if you count the setting-specific stuff, then Pathfinder has already exceeded 3.5 in book bloat.
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Actually, it was closer to 50 as I've just had a quick count along my shelf and there's 40 hardbacks there excluding setting specific stuff and bestiaries.
However, at the current rate,this means Pathfinder will hit the same rate of rules hardbacks in, what, 2030? Truly this is an urgent problem we need to deal with immediately.
It was closer to 20. Unless you count the setting-specific stuff, in which case it hit fifty. But if you count the setting-specific stuff, then Pathfinder has already exceeded 3.5 in book bloat.Here's another reason I am, at least for now because I can't tell the future, opting out of pathfinder. How fast is this game getting on par with 3.X supplement bloat? There is simply getting to be too much to deal with now. I am aware of things like the SRD but still it's just too much. You can barely do anything without someone saying "Well in this supplement here it says that is supposed to work this way while this book here says if you do that, this also happens." And then I have to get the Tylenol. I tell you, all the arguing I have had to deal with from people about multi-book spanning RAW and RAI has actually caused me to have to get fillings from the tooth grinding just so I don't deck someone. Yes I have considered sending the bill to my group.oh come on! 50+ books for 3.5, 15 for pathfinder...
Well if you're counting setting stuff for PF you should probably include the many such for 3.5 - FR had a TON of books, I know, and Eberron had quite a few as well, and there's Greyhawk and Dragonlance and a handful of other settings on top of that. Comparing apples to apples, as they say.
Well if you're counting setting stuff for PF you should probably include the many such for 3.5 - FR had a TON of books, I know, and Eberron had quite a few as well, and there's Greyhawk and Dragonlance and a handful of other settings on top of that. Comparing apples to apples, as they say.It was closer to 20. Unless you count the setting-specific stuff, in which case it hit fifty. But if you count the setting-specific stuff, then Pathfinder has already exceeded 3.5 in book bloat.Here's another reason I am, at least for now because I can't tell the future, opting out of pathfinder. How fast is this game getting on par with 3.X supplement bloat? There is simply getting to be too much to deal with now. I am aware of things like the SRD but still it's just too much. You can barely do anything without someone saying "Well in this supplement here it says that is supposed to work this way while this book here says if you do that, this also happens." And then I have to get the Tylenol. I tell you, all the arguing I have had to deal with from people about multi-book spanning RAW and RAI has actually caused me to have to get fillings from the tooth grinding just so I don't deck someone. Yes I have considered sending the bill to my group.oh come on! 50+ books for 3.5, 15 for pathfinder...
I was including those. And Eberron had the most setting-specific books in that edition. The Eberron setting-specific books rivaled the rulebooks for the vanilla ruleset.
just counted them on the wikipage ;) stopped counting once they started with the oriental settings and was at 52. counted the books for pathfinder here at the paizosite. 15. (phb, dmg, mm, ultimate everythings, epic, and npc handbooks.)
Do you have a link to this wiki? Because different wikis give different counts and don't always classify setting-specific stuff correctly.
By the way, this. http://youtu.be/7DyRxlvM9VM This is basically why I despise how they handle the cthulhu mythos in pathfinder. At least in the APs I played. Basically, if you can kill it then they are doing it wrong. The video explains it well and it is something I have been saying to people for a while now.Actually that I disagree with. The way the Mythos should be handled in a heroic fantasy game is very different than in a horror game. And there's precedent for that. The mythos has a presence in fantasy literature dating back to R.E Howard. When sword and sorcery heroes deal with weird mythos inspired creatures, they prevail. Because they're Heroes, unlike horror protaganists.
You don't have to like it, but the tradition is basically as old as the mythos itself. Lovecraft was a frequent correspondent with R.E.H. and certainly aware of his use of Mythos.
Plus, Lovecraft himself occasionally penned a story where his Mythos creatures were featured and mortals got an old-fashioned fantasy hero win. His Dreamlands tales were particularly known for it.
Also, Cthulhu himself was immediately KO'd by a boat and then went back to sleep. Truly a terror to behold, that one.
Which is itself partly false because Lovecraft did actually have his Mythos creatures get killed.
Dunwich Horror, Shadow Over Innsmouth, At the Mountains of Madness... it wasn't unusual for eldritch terrors to die. In fact, it was key to the setting: A universe so horrible and uncaring that these monstrous creatures that overshadow humanity are, themselves, small fries.
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Minor monsters like deep ones is one thing. Those are nothing. However they big things were so powerful and otherworldly that there was always a cost for victory. Nobody truly wins against them. You always lose part of yourself at least. Also the captain of the alert was left so shaken that newspapers caused a heart attack and he died. His heart simply could not take anymore. There were no survivors really. Being able to essentially curb stomp a colour out of space or a dark young made me had to walk away from the table. Also ultimately in the stories, their victory would become meaningless. Nobody really wins. Also I have to say I was never a fan of Conan. I know I know, blasphemy.
This is hilariously ironic, as Conan is part of the Cthulhu Mythos and Lovecraft worked with Howard to make Hyperborea canon to the Mythos.
Also MagusJanus, you say it is ironic that I don't like Conan? Maybe I have to read the definition of Irony again.
The irony is in that Lovecraft apparently loved adventure stories and went out of his way to make stories such as Conan part of the Mythos, but that you hate them because they don't match the tone of the Mythos as written by Lovecraft (including borrowing elements from Conan for his Mythos stories).
Is it just my group, or is it common for pathfinder groups to not actually use a spell's full description and effect? By which I mean, fireball not catching you and your gear on fire or doing anything else other than just damage?
As TOZ points out, it doesn't really damage your gear (except in the case of a natural 1). It damages creatures and unattended objects. The last paragraph is in reference to those unattended objects (and items due to a natural 1). Otherwise it should just harm the creature.
Heck, I have even argued that you have to repair your gear and clothes cause after a while they will be falling apart, due to being full of holes from the amount of hits they took.
Again, this is something people can get into or they just hand wave, it really depends on the individuals. Keep in mind that some people have very limited schedules and spending too much time on mundane matters for the characters can seem as wasting that limited time. Dungeons and Dragons vs. Stitching and Shining you might say.
After all, why should the sorc spontaneously know a spell developed by a caster across the globe to deal with a situation they had to deal with? If your character has no logical reason to know of the spell, then you should have to research.
Probably not the best example since sorcerers are suppose to be magical naturally. They don't really "learn" spells so much as "awaken" them. The magic is in their blood not something they tap into.
I know I try to use every bit of the rule when I play, but for things like that, some people don't realize everything that the spell does, especially if it has been changed from 3.5. Coincidentally, I don't think fireball catches your gear on fire, just unattended items.
Also if you roll a 1 on your save, some of your gear can get destroyed/damaged.
I wouldn't say that sorcerers are more brilliant, they might be more intuitive, but they are limited to only using magic they are intimately tied to. Wizards on the other hand have no limit on learning and using arcane magic.
Now for an exotic spell, a sorcerer might just "stumble" on the ability to do it. A wizard ally could then study them, how they cast it, perhaps have the sorcerer embed it into a scroll and whamo! Suddenly the wizard understands how it works.
I would suggest most arcane spells were actually originally "discovered" by sorcerers (or other spontaneous arcane casters, e.g. dragons) and classified, defined, and quantified by brilliant wizards.
EDIT: I guess what I'm saying is, I wouldn't call someone more brilliant that thought up something new that nobody else did, but was incapable of learning other things. As compared to someone that can not only learn from the first person and recreate their discover, but also learn an unlimited amount of other things.
Imho even the concept of a stat block for Cthulhu means you've already missed the point. Does not compute.
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Imho even the concept of a stat block for Cthulhu means you've already missed the point. Does not compute.
If you have a visual and/or physical representation of Cthulhu that doesn't immediately drive you insane, the point has been missed.
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Imho even the concept of a stat block for Cthulhu means you've already missed the point. Does not compute.
Yeah, the inconceivable stat block for an ancient evil that was knocked out by a boat.
What kind of stats allow that?
Stats that exists.
And, of course, Cthulhu would have much the same effect on "normal" adventurers. He's a CR 30, meaning only a group of nearly godlike warriors would be able to even stand a chance, and it would still be a harrowing fight. And even then he still comes back from the dead a whole freakin' lot.
So what's the problem here? He's not just some dragon for players to slay. He is still a being of unimaginable power. He would leave cities dead without having to even lift a finger. So what if he has a statblock? He has a damn good statblock that reflects his immense power.
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Here's another reason I am, at least for now because I can't tell the future, opting out of pathfinder. How fast is this game getting on par with 3.X supplement bloat? There is simply getting to be too much to deal with now. I am aware of things like the SRD but still it's just too much. You can barely do anything without someone saying "Well in this supplement here it says that is supposed to work this way while this book here says if you do that, this also happens." And then I have to get the Tylenol. I tell you, all the arguing I have had to deal with from people about multi-book spanning RAW and RAI has actually caused me to have to get fillings from the tooth grinding just so I don't deck someone. Yes I have considered sending the bill to my group.oh come on! 50+ books for 3.5, 15 for pathfinder...
Worth noting that Pathfinder tends to put out books in the RPG line that have a higher average page count than those from 3.5.
I personally love the game system. It needs tweaks, but I tweak everything. It's the MMO mentality that I'm not thee with. It's all about power builds and not about role playing with so many gamers in my area. After asking three players to find another game yesterday, I'm down to two people who actually want to role play and have fun. Some gamers can keep the gaming styles separate, but many don't seem to be able to or even want to. What's the point if you don't want to role play?
But if you can't resolve issues to the point that you're just unsatisfied... it's a game ya know? It's supposed to be fun =} Make yourself happy & find players that fit with your style or find a game that makes your time spent on it enjoyable.
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Really: Cthulhu, as well as the other Great Old Ones, in Pathfinder.
They don't die. Look beyond the state block at the actual descriptions. They CANNOT die.
The boat didn't KO Cthulhu. He assumed gasseous form, then reformed.and continued the chase. He only.retreated to return to R'lyeh because the stars were no longer right.
I can't think of a Conan story.where he faced a truly powerful Lovecraftian entity and killed it (at least not by Howard). When.faced with something.like that, Conan usually just stole.whatever he was after and got the F out of Dodge.
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I quit last Saturday.Then you stop playing with them? Or don't GM for them.
@TOZ, dang, can't find it right now.
I'm sorry to hear you had to give it up, but it sounds like PF/3.5/3e/etc is not your style of game at all.
I really don't get the hate for splatbooks, especially considering PF has what, 1/3 the number of splatbooks 3.5 had? Honestly, I still feel like there's a ton of stuff PF has not done YET that needs an update(official psionics, or something along those lines).
Splatbooks are just options, that's it. Optional options. Paizo needs to make new products that customers can buy(who have already bought most/all the existing products), and game worlds grow and expand. Nothing past the CRB, Bestiaries, and maaaaybe the GMG are "required."
Don't like options? Don't use them. PF runs just fine on the core books alone. I realize you already said you quit, I'm just making a general statement.
Optional declaration:
Me? I like options. The more, the merrier. In 3.5, I had many characters constructed out of options from and upwards of 6 or 7 books at a time. I had 3.5's "System Mastery" down to a science. I could recall specific page numbers for niche rulings. PF kinda changed all that, so I'm back to making a character using only 1 book if possible. I'm weary to venture outside of the CRB, mostly because I don't like the newer options presented. I hope Paizo continues putting out more and more optional books, in hopes that I might find something new that actually excites me. So far, the Magus and Inquisitor are the only things I kind of dig, along with the Advanced Race Guide.