Goblin Squad Member
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It has been an exciting and educational month for the Xeilian Empire. We have made new friends, and we have helped secure a few neighbors through the Northern Coalition. Golgotha has grown their citizenry, and very soon, Callambea stands to do the same.
We have also learned a lot about who we are and where we need to be as a nation. An organization's image is just as much a form of currency as any other aspect. We originally planned to provide the maximum amount of freedom of play style in our Nation, covering the full gambit of Good to Evil. It was a good goal, as far as such things go. What it ended up doing, however, was making our message lukewarm. A Lawful Neutral inclusive pitch is not something exclusive to our organization. In fact, the current message of alignment neutrality is almost (if not equally) as prevalent as goodness. We were competing in an oversaturated market.
We tried to bring in new settlements and companies specifically from the Lawful Good sphere for the last two years. While we feel confident that we have moved forward with decent metagame relations and possible trade negotiations, Good aligned groups have thus far stated that working alongside evil is detrimental to their preferred play styles. Our current two settlements, being roleplay oriented as a secondary focus, found it originally difficult to understand. In the end, though, we had to face the facts.
Xeilias has never been shy about our goals. We are active nation builders, and hitting a wall of stagnation is counter productive. We needed a stronger focus to get behind, and we needed to fill a niche that was currently being left out in the community.
At first we created an over the top, tongue-in-cheek blog titled “The Enemy They Need” (both on the Paizo Community Forums and on the Pax Gaming Community). It served as a good stress reliever during the beginnings of the land rush, and it provided some laughs and nods from both communities.
Then the leadership of both Callambea and Golgotha began to grow attached to the idea. Why not refocus the empire as Lawful Evil? Sure, we lose the ability to plug Good into the empire at the settlement level, but it also adds the ability to plug in Neutral Evil, and opens up opportunities to begin talks with groups that were outside our ability to support. Often times we were being defined by the alignment of Golgotha anyhow, why not own it?
A week later we brought the conversation to our collective memberships. To our great surprise, we were met with almost total support for the premise. We had one member who played devil’s advocate for us to make sure we were aware of what such large moves means, and we appreciate his contributions to the conversation. After letting the thread conversation go on at the member level for a week, we made our decision. We announced internally to our membership that the Empire of Xeilias was now a Lawful Evil nation.
This means we have answered the community call that is often said by prominent Paizo voices. The Xeilian Empire is now the premier home for the bad guys, and for all those that want to plug into a nation of expansionists. While originally a lark, our message in the Enemy They Need thread now rings quite a bit more true.
If you are LN, LE, or NE and want to participate in a nation level alliance we are your best bet. We are able to accept you both at the company level through Golgotha, as well as the settlement level in the Empire. Of everyone we have attempted diplomatic ties with, the nefarious have proven to be the most receptive friends the empire can hope for. This is a nod towards that end as well. Should our friends find it beneficial to step their alignment one time to fit into the empire, we would love to begin talks of growing our Nation together.
This does not change the goals of either Golgotha or Callambea. Golgotha still remains a militarily focused settlement specializing in evil as well as combat. Callambea still aims to be the premier trade hub of the central and north map, and we are confident in our ability to do so. Neither settlement is changing alignment. Callambea remains Lawful Neutral, and Golgotha remains Lawful Evil.
What this does change is who we will be accepting as Nation allies in the future. Good is officially off the table, and Evil is full steam ahead.
As citizens, companies, or settlements, we encourage you to give the darkness a chance, to be daring, and join with us on the road less traveled. Join Xeilias, and lets bring peace to the River Kingdoms in the only way it can be brought. Together through our steel, we bring order.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So, you are now an Evil Empire, with an Emperor who came to power as a nice guy who now spends his time wearing a hood.
I've seen this movie before....
It was all of that coffee you have been bringing him, and you know what effect the color green has on the Emprah!!
But LAWFUL.... Run off Green Little Golum, I have been spending months trying to plant and cultivate the seeds of chaos!
<the Harbinger bows his green hatted head in despair>
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Goblin Squad Member
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Several points...
1. I don't drink coffee.
2. The governing structure of EoX has not changed...it is still run by an Imperial High Council where only the Leaders (or their designee) of each settlement get to vote on Imperial matters (i.e. there is no single leader...however you want to spell it).
3. Though stated in CG's post, Callambea has not changed its alignment. It will remain Lawful Neutral. Neutral so that it is still open to trade with all alignments. Lawful because it is still just as serious about honoring its deals and contracts.
As for the alignment shift of the Empire, not only are there sensible game mechanic reasons as outlined above, but also thematic reasons. Posters have been saying for as long as I have been on these forums that there needs to be "bad guys" for the good guys to pit themselves against, for not only game-provided competition, but for RP as well. I would certainly rather have someone playing the bad guys who have been around well over a year, engaged in forum discussions, and invested in the community and the game as a whole. Hopefully our choice to take up the challenge of portraying the Evil Empire is not being misconstrued as anything other than an in-game and in-character decision. We're not bad guys...we just play them in-game, and we intend to be every bit as PFO community conscious as we have been in the past.
Besides...alignment isn't suppose to be all that visible in-game, but we thought it would be "good" form to let you know, player to player. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oh I know you guys aren't bad people at all. If there has to be an Evil Empire, I'd rather it be Xelias, where it will at least be a principled Evil Empire, more Lex Luthor than Rovagug. Scheming, deadly, dangerous, absolutely wants your stuff, but polite about it. Its never personal, its always business.
*That* is what I'm looking forward to.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oh I know you guys aren't bad people at all. If there has to be an Evil Empire, I'd rather it be Xelias, where it will at least be a principled Evil Empire, more Lex Luthor than Rovagug. Scheming, deadly, dangerous, absolutely wants your stuff, but polite about it. Its never personal, its always business.
*That* is what I'm looking forward to.
Exactly, and thank you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In SWG we were a faction within the Empire trying to take it over from within, as the Emperor was a wimp. We had our own Force discipline based off our leader, the Dreadlord Sanguinous Rex. It was basically Sith who were honorable and loyal to each other and the cause. We did quite well, achieving various server firsts and establishing one of the first cities in the game.
So don't limit it to just Sith and Jedi, that universe had many force disciplines besides those two, both cannon and otherwise :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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In SWG we were a faction within the Empire trying to take it over from within, as the Emperor was a wimp. We had our own Force discipline based off our leader, the Dreadlord Sanguinous Rex. It was basically Sith who were honorable and loyal to each other and the cause. We did quite well, achieving various server firsts and establishing one of the first cities in the game.
So don't limit it to just Sith and Jedi, that universe had many force disciplines besides those two, both cannon and otherwise :)
Lol, I played it the opposite. I was one of the first Dark Jedi on my server because I had 6 months of beta to know what Dark Side choices to make.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Lol, I played it the opposite. I was one of the first Dark Jedi on my server because I had 6 months of beta to know what Dark Side choices to make.In SWG we were a faction within the Empire trying to take it over from within, as the Emperor was a wimp. We had our own Force discipline based off our leader, the Dreadlord Sanguinous Rex. It was basically Sith who were honorable and loyal to each other and the cause. We did quite well, achieving various server firsts and establishing one of the first cities in the game.
So don't limit it to just Sith and Jedi, that universe had many force disciplines besides those two, both cannon and otherwise :)
SWG ? Or SWTOR ?
While declaring yourself has an advantage until GW decide how much not being lawful good is going to suck then an early declaration may leave you at a disadvantage.
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Goblin Squad Member
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remember: Government is evil, business is evil, military conquest is evil and money is the root of all evil.
= If you are playing to win, Lawful Evil is the way to go!
..and for many of us on the other side, we much prefer the "bad guys" to be in organized, properly labeled evil empires that can be occasionally negotiated with.
You should not be ashamed of the label. It's basically a fair warning to the world saying "We play to win, even if it means you lose".
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Goblin Squad Member
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While declaring yourself has an advantage until GW decide how much not being lawful good is going to suck then an early declaration may leave you at a disadvantage.
That is a very good example of "lawful evil" reasoning!
(disclaimer: not a personal attack, just pointing out that the archetypical LE would consider potential advantages of declaring a different alignement, where the archetypical LG and CG would not).
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Goblin Squad Member
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While declaring yourself has an advantage until GW decide how much not being lawful good is going to suck then an early declaration may leave you at a disadvantage.
If the empire or the settlements that make them up were already filled (negating recruitment concerns) I would take your statement as absolutely true.
Needless to say we are not in that position. We need members, we need allies. Part of recruitment is making clear what you are recruiting for.
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Goblin Squad Member
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While declaring yourself has an advantage until GW decide how much not being lawful good is going to suck then an early declaration may leave you at a disadvantage.
I think a more productive approach is to say "if it turns out that being LE sucks too much, it's our job as crowdforgers to make sure that that is well documented so that we can get GW to rebalance."
GW has made it clear that being 2 steps from LG is not supposed to suck too much. If we discover that the implementation does not match that intention, we'll get it fixed.
While declaring yourself has an advantage until GW decide how much not being lawful good is going to suck then an early declaration may leave you at a disadvantage.If the empire or the settlements that make them up were already filled (negating recruitment concerns) I would take your statement as absolutely true.
Needless to say we are not in that position. We need members, we need allies. Part of recruitment is making clear what you are recruiting for.
Mr George I fully understand your reasoning and have few quibbles with it. My thoughts were along the lines of declaring your intentions privately to those you were hoping to recruit with the caveat that things were subject to change depending on gw's stance rather than an open declaration.
Not sure my suggestion is correct here or that your approach is by any means just your approach makes any necessary u turns more public
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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While declaring yourself has an advantage until GW decide how much not being lawful good is going to suck then an early declaration may leave you at a disadvantage.I think a more productive approach is to say "if it turns out that being LE sucks too much, it's our job as crowdforgers to make sure that that is well documented so that we can get GW to rebalance."
GW has made it clear that being 2 steps from LG is not supposed to suck too much. If we discover that the implementation does not match that intention, we'll get it fixed.
Er, no, they didn't say that LE was not supposed to suck too much, they say that that it was probably supposed to be the best alignment, because high-rep and moral liberty.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Steelwing,
Somehow I sense that some would view that as trying to "hide" something. We endeavor to be up front with the community about our plans. If it proves to be mechanically disadvantageous, we tend to be a pretty flexible group. It wouldn't be the first time we've had to adjust to moving targets in PFO.
For now, we like the challenge of filling the niche few others fill.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hobbes, I'm afraid any gov't is singular, friend, and thus able to be tyrannical. In fact any number of governments can be tyrannical. People too often throw in "dictator" with "tyranny" (due to more recent times the dictators almost always gain power via corrupt methods). Council, councils, democracy, king, theocracy; these all matter not.
I would'st be very careful if I was the EoX, for you assuredly invite war.
But then, that is the whole point right? So what then is there to be careful about...
And yes. I was deliberately misspelling your name as a pun referring to Thomas Hobbes, writer of "Leviathan".
Susie Derkins.
What?
love the Dresden books, the new one is out but not sure if i want to read it cause it will just irritate me when i finish and the next one isn't ready to go :P
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have a few questions of the Hobz. Will you also turn to the freedom hating, Lawful Evil
alignment?
How will this alignment manifest itself within the empire?
Will it be truly Evil, the kind of evil that inspires amongst the weak; fear, feelings of oppression, despair, hopelessness and dread with each waking day
Or will this be nothing more than a hollow declaration of "yeah, we bad" but with no true manifestation of evil to really be felt?
That is also a question I pose to all of those who intend to play "evil" aligned characters. How will evil be manifested in your character's actions?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Good and evil are just one of three axes of character in PFO. Evil by itself tells you little about what to expect from someone unless you also know whether they are lawful or chaotic, and whether they are esteemed or reviled.
Xeilias is high-rep lawful evil. So we're not going to be roaming the map RPKing, and we're not going to stopping arbitrary merchant caravans to collect "road tax".
What evil means, in the context of HRLE, is:
* necromancers
* assassins
* slave labor
* evil deities
* eager aggression vs low-rep targets
* affiliation with evil NPC factions
* a ready inclination to feud or war if provoked
Ryan posted that he expects the natural role for LE to be mercenaries. Lawful means we can be trusted to fulfill our contracts, and evil means we don't have to wait for the bandits to strike first. (And that we have tools to use on our employer's behalf that good mercs simply can't offer.)
Think of us much like the Hellknights: very useful, and reliable, as allies, but merciless and terrifying as enemies. If you give us reason to attack, you will sorely regret it, but so long as you do not we're very good friends to have.
Just ignore those zombies digging up the ore over there.
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Goblin Squad Member
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First, since this is more a thread to discuss the Empire of Xeilias, recruitment for same, our policies, etc., a wholesale discussion of "Evil" might be better done in a thread dedicated to the topic, such these:
Evil with Style
The Face of Evil
For those who like to quote the Devs or Ryan to add authority to their case, here's a post from Ryan in the thread On Being Evil:
I think the key thing to understand is that roleplaying evil EFFECTIVELY means being evil as a group, not a lone wolf individual. To really be roleplaying evil, you'll need to be trying to make a persistent change to the world in line with the kinds of goals of your patrons. And they won't care much about random murders or pick-pocketing. They'll want mass sacrifice, they'll want paragons to renounce their faiths, they'll want obedience on the part of the potent and fear on the part of the weak. En masse. Repeatedly. Sustainably.
As for Hobs the character, I have already written in his backstory how he is more forced than chooses to shift towards Neutral (not Evil). At this point, I foresee him living in Lawful Neutral Callambea.
However (also more suited to it's own thread), I plan on playing a second character who will help to provide RP opportunities for others wishing to enjoy an Evil character, whether with mains, alts/Destiny's Twins, non-experience gaining "extra" characters, etc. This will also hopefully allow for such "bad guys" to be made available for other people's player-made quests/plot-lines. If we want to ensure that Evil is done well, that it isn't just a cover for griefers, as Ryan suggests above, there needs to be a concerted effort to create meaningful Evil in PFO by those who have the desire, knowledge, and commitment to do so. It will take multiple players who see the fun and benefit of Evil existing in-game, even if they are not in the same "group". To make it an actual RP benefit to the community, it requires the networking of many different groups. More on this later.
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Goblin Squad Member
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First, since this is more a thread to discuss the Empire of Xeilias, recruitment for same, our policies, etc., a wholesale discussion of "Evil" might be better done in a thread dedicated to the topic, such these:
Evil with Style
The Face of EvilFor those who like to quote the Devs or Ryan to add authority to their case, here's a post from Ryan in the thread On Being Evil:
I think the key thing to understand is that roleplaying evil EFFECTIVELY means being evil as a group, not a lone wolf individual. To really be roleplaying evil, you'll need to be trying to make a persistent change to the world in line with the kinds of goals of your patrons. And they won't care much about random murders or pick-pocketing. They'll want mass sacrifice, they'll want paragons to renounce their faiths, they'll want obedience on the part of the potent and fear on the part of the weak. En masse. Repeatedly. Sustainably.As for Hobs the character, I have already written in his backstory how he is more forced than chooses to shift towards Neutral (not Evil). At this point, I foresee him living in Lawful Neutral Callambea.
However (also more suited to it's own thread), I plan on playing a second character who will help to provide RP opportunities for others wishing to enjoy an Evil character, whether with mains, alts/Destiny's Twins, non-experience gaining "extra" characters, etc. This will also hopefully allow for such "bad guys" to be made available for other people's player-made quests/plot-lines. If we want to ensure that Evil is done well, that it isn't just a cover for griefers, as Ryan suggests above, there needs to be a concerted effort to create meaningful Evil in PFO by those who have the desire, knowledge, and commitment to do so. It will take multiple players who see...
I actually started a thread for this discussion, so if you wouldn't mind to repost this there and then I will delete this response.
Sorry about the slight tangent.