We ran into a bit of confusion last night and I would really appreciate any input that you all might offer.
A 13th level sorcerer holds his action so that he can fire off 2 lightning bolts when the PCs open the door. One of the lightning bolts is a quickened lightning bolt.
The door opens and the sorcerer fires his standard lightning bolt.
1. Can the PC wizard who has already taken a move action to open the door casts a quickened dispell magic and cancel the lightning bolt?
2. Can the sorcerers second quickened lightning bolt be canceled with a regular dispell magic?
3. Can the sorcerer even cast a quickened lightning bolt since he held his action?
1. Not unless this was already in rounds,not a surprise round for the sorcerer, and the wizard ready to counter spell before opening the door.
2. Yes. And it only counts as a 3rd level spell to dispel too.
3. Yes, you can take swift,immediate, and/or free actions still.
1. You can not dispel instantaneous spells so no.
The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can't be dispelled, because the magical effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect.
Also there is a difference between holding an action and readying an action.
The sorcerer should have been using a ready action because he was waiting for a condition to be met, not hold action. If the sorcerer readies an action he can interrupt the wizard's turn to cast his spells. If he is only holding his action then he has to wait for the wizard's turn to complete.
So let's say the sorcerer had actually readied his action, then he would get his turn and the wizard could not do anything about it, even if the sorcerer had cast a spell that was not instantaneous.
1) No; lightning bolt can only be stopped via a counterspell. While dispel magic is a valid counterspell option, you need a readied action to do so. The quicken metamagic is not helpful here, as counterspelling always takes a readied action regardless of which spell you use to do it. There is an Abjurer Wizard archetype that would let you counterspell as an immediate action, but that's it.
2) If you've readied an action, then yes you can counterspell even a quickened spell. Keep in mind that since you can only ready one action per round, you could only counterspell one or the other of the Sorcerer's spells.
3) The answer depends on the exact way in which things happened, and your post isn't quite descriptive enough for me to figure out which is the case. There are a few possibilities:
A) The GM declared a surprise round when the door was opened, giving the Sorcerer a free turn to attack. Casting both spells is legal in this case.
B) The GM asked for an initiative roll after the door was opened, and the Sorcerer won and can take his turn first. Casting both spells is legal in this case.
C) The Sorcerer took a readied action to cast lightning bolt if anyone opened the door. Casting the regular speed spell is legal in this case, but he could NOT cast the quickened spell.
D) The Sorcerer took a delay action to shift his turn in initiative order. If the Wizard has already begun his turn (taking a move action to open the door) the Sorcerer cannot interrupt and must wait until the end of the Wizard's turn to cast any spells (at which point he could take his turn as normal and cast both).
So depending on the precise scenario, the Sorcerer might be able to cast both, one, or neither of his spells.
You can not use dispel magic on an instantaneous spell.<---That is stated at the beginning. Then the spell goes on to the using it as a counterspell or dispelling action.
Dispel magic(the spell)* can dispel (but not counter) spell-like effects just as it does spells. The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can't be dispelled, because the magical effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect.
Below that verbage it breaks down dispelling and countering.
*added by me for emphasis.
I was always under the impression that readied actions were limited to a standard action, and that you couldn't add additional actions.
You can absolutely counterspell instantaneous spells with dispel magic; you can't dispel them, but you don't have to. But! You have to have a readied action to do it, I think. (Interestingly, so far as I can tell, you can't counterspell other people on your own turn.)
Readying an action does not remove you other actions, but you do need a readied action to counterspell.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
1. Can the PC wizard who has already taken a move action to open the door casts a quickened dispell magic and cancel the lightning bolt?
2. Can the sorcerers second quickened lightning bolt be canceled with a regular dispell magic?
3. Can the sorcerer even cast a quickened lightning bolt since he held his action?
1) Wizard can't counterspell without readying to counter, which he hasn't done. He got hit immediately when opening the door.
2) See #1 above
3) No. "You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action." So he may ready the Swift or the Standard but not both. Swift can only be taken on a ready or on your turn. Free actions however can be taken any time you are taking other actions.
Readying actions allows you to ready "a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action". Then the readied action fires, and your initiative count changes, and next turn you can take a full normal turn on your shiny new initiative count. But so far as I can tell, you can only take one action, period, as your readied action. It doesn't say "you can ready a standard action or a move action, plus a swift action or any additional free actions". I would say the readied action rules specifically restricting you to picking a single action trumps the general rules on being able to take free actions when you take actions.
The readied action says you use a standard action to setup another action based on certain conditions. That is all it really says. It does not say you lose the other actions, and there is no verbage to support it.
You could move, and they use your standard action to ready another standard action, so why cant you ready an action and then use a move action?
The only consequence listed and the word "consequence" is used is that your initiative changes.
The reason you can't ready an action and then use a move action is that the readied action says you ready an action and then that action happens as an interrupt. It says nothing about other actions also being taken or available to you. Since normally you can't take other actions outside your turn, I generally wouldn't let you unless there were some specific wording allowing you to take additional actions with a readied action.
When you ready an action your initiative changes so that is actually your turn when your init is in play. In order for you to lose actions on your turn the rules would have to say you lose them.
The Combat Round
Each round represents 6 seconds in the game world; there are 10 rounds in a minute of combat. A round normally allows each character involved in a combat situation to act.Each round's activity begins with the character with the highest initiative result and then proceeds in order. When a character's turn comes up in the initiative sequence, that character performs his entire round's worth of actions. (For exceptions, see Attacks of Opportunity and Special Initiative Actions.)
Initiative Consequences of Readying: Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don't get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.
1. You can not dispel instantaneous spells so no.
The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can't be dispelled, because the magical effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect.Also there is a difference between holding an action and readying an action.
The sorcerer should have been using a ready action because he was waiting for a condition to be met, not hold action. If the sorcerer readies an action he can interrupt the wizard's turn to cast his spells. If he is only holding his action then he has to wait for the wizard's turn to complete.
So let's say the sorcerer had actually readied his action, then he would get his turn and the wizard could not do anything about it, even if the sorcerer had cast a spell that was not instantaneous.
For clarification: The sorcerer was in fact readying an action. They were in rounds and he had run from the fight 2 rounds prior knowing that the PCs would follow him down the tight corridor and into his lab.
My logic at the time for why he could fire off the second quickened lightning bolt was the line:
Swift actions can be taken any time you could take a free action.
Since during a readied action you can in fact take a free action I saw it as legal.
Now the question becomes can you even use dispell magic to counter a spell with instantaneous duration?
Now the question becomes can you even use dispell magic to counter a spell with instantaneous duration?
Yes. Counterspelling is not the same thing as dispelling.
To dispel, you need to be able to target an ongoing magical effect. Lightning Bolt and other instantaneous spells don't have an ongoing effect and cannot be dispelled.
Counterspelling disrupts the magical energies as they are forming during the actual casting, thus the spell never completes being cast if it is successfully countered. This is also why you need to use a readied action to do it (or be the abjuration specialist).
This is a very interesting discussion. Personally, I always used to rule it the way that seebs is - you can only perform the readied action, and nothing else. Having read the other views, I can now see it both ways. I guess, RAW, whether or not you can use a swift action depends on whether it is your turn during your readied action or not. This may be worth suggesting as a FAQ.
This is a very interesting discussion. Personally, I always used to rule it the way that seebs is - you can only perform the readied action, and nothing else. Having read the other views, I can now see it both ways. I guess, RAW, whether or not you can use a swift action depends on whether it is your turn during your readied action or not. This may be worth suggesting as a FAQ.
And I have also done it this way. But now I'm not so sure.