Help with Gestalt character


Advice


Hi, my friends and I are starting up a Gestalt pathfinder campaign, and I'm having trouble deciding what to play. Mechanically, I know I want to play a caster, since I never really have that opportunity, but I don't know what to put on the other side... or what caster to actually go with in the first place. I'm considering something like Summoner/Sylvan Sorcerer focusing on battlefield control, so I can spend my actions neutralizing threats and then have two free fighter-equivalents to actually deal damage to things, but I'm unsure.

The group only consists of one other person, a Wizard/Barbarian, apparently chosen for the BaB and Hit dice, I have no idea what the build is based around.

The main concern with the sorcerer idea is that I feel like the two classes I've chosen don't synergise very well, plus it's kind of redundant to have two arcane casters (although we could just focus on different things I suppose). Also we don't have a very large list of skills. I've considered making my other side Factotum to help with that, but then we lack in fighters.

I have 3.5 transparency for this, so I can use anything from there as well. Any suggestions for good caster focused gestalt builds? I've tried looking around the forums, but apparently caster = gish for gestalt. Thanks in advance.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, starting at level 2. Might be important

Dark Archive

Do an Oracle summoner. Or empyeral sor/cleric

Liberty's Edge

Go Summoner/Oracle instead. That'll give you healing, which you're gonna need, still give you two pets if you go Lunar or Nature Mystery...and let you use Cha instead of Dex for AC (which is awesome). The Cleric list isn't as offensive as the Wizard one, but it's still very solid.

Or go Paladin/Oracle for unbelievable saves and some combat prowess (Archery'd be good), and still having two animal companions. Paladin/Sorcerer also works for this, of course.


Can I ask for an explanation on that recommendation? I mean, I get the basic principle, divine magic means fewer toes to step on, but I can't help but feel Divine magic is inferior for what I'm trying to accomplish. Maybe it's because I'm unused to operating a caster, but there doesn't seem to be anything particularly amazing on the cleric/oracle spell list for battlefield control, especially not when compared to the wizard/sorcerer list. I suppose I could be buffing up the eidolon better with the Cleric list, but that takes away from what I'm trying to do. Sorc/Cleric just doesn't really mesh well IMO. Sure, the only stat I need is Wisdom, but I can only cast one spell per turn, meaning that one half is always going to be left in the dust, unless I take fast channeling stuff and go Variant Channeling or something, but then I would need Charisma.

Liberty's Edge

A party of two characters without healing is pretty much screwed. Full stop.

Your fellow party member lacks such healing ability...therefore you're going to need to provide it. You could try and do that with just items and UMD, but that's an awful plan.

Now, if you want to focus on battlefield control, you can certainly do that in a variety of ways as an Oracle (Heavens Oracles are one of the best Save-Or-Die casters out there), or in combination with Oracle or Cleric (or Witch...but that's really int-based, making a non-Int based class tricky) but you're gonna be down to only one pet in that case (and even that only if your other class is Summoner).


You might want to consider Empyreal Sorcerer/Qinggong Monk (both from Ultimate Magic). You'll only need Wisdom for casting and most of your abilities. Monk will get you a small boost in skill points, BAB, and HD and make all of your saves good. You'll add Wisdom to your AC and get bonus AC increases. Most of the monk abilities that you don't really like or don't fit your character can be replaced with extra spell-like abilities or other fun stuff. If third party material is allowed, the Talented Monk can make this combo even better, letting you take your ki pool earlier and makes the ki powers selectable much more often. Good stuff.


Well to be fair, the animal companions were mainly there because I figured a party of two casters would need some form of front line, at least at lower levels. And also because having two pets is hilarious. Is it really a wise investment of my resources though? I mean, Lunar's spell list is kind of terrible (I suppose I could find a way to make it work, Rage is a caster disable I guess) and all of Sylvan's bonus feats seem geared towards me being an archer of some kind. Is it really worth the investment, or could I do better? Also, is there a way to actually make use of the dual spellcasting beyond having access to both lists, or am I just getting a lot of flexibility (and I guess some neat passives)?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

i just finished playing a gestalt campaign in which one of the other players made a summoner/sylvan sorcerer... he switched characters after 2 sessions. it sounds like an awesome combo in theory but it wasn't that fun or effective at the table.

speaking of effective... there is a reason why most of the advice on the forums for gestalt casters has to do with building a gish... its just more effective. a double caster has poor survivability- a sorc/sum can't wear armor because of sorc spell failure, only has d8 hp, only has one good save (and its tied to a stat you wouldn't otherwise invest points in), and has no way to heal himself (ok, yes, infernal healing but that's for after combat not during an emergency). double casters also gain some casting versatility but no other versatility- if something has spell resist you're stuck just casting till you get lucky. the extra spells do provide some extra tricks but your action economy still limits you to one spell per round, and (honestly) how often do you ever expend all of your spells even just with one casting class. the combo does start to get better around 10th level when having extra higher level spells allows more use of quicken spells (though that's more true for double 9:9 casters).

if you decided to go with, for example, a ranger instead for one class, you'd have d10 hp, all good saves, full BAB, 6+Int skills/level, and bonus combat feats. you'd still be restricted from wearing armor and action economy would stop you from using physical attacks and a spell in one round but you'd be more durable, have more options (can melee, can do ranged combat, can cast spells), and could get some cool extra little bonuses (like adding favored enemy bonuses to hit and damage with shocking grasp or scorching ray). you'd also gain the ability to use some cure wands.


Well, apparently the Summ/Sorc is already dead in the water because it turns out that the other player is doing basically the same thing (albeit as a Wizard/Barb), so now I need to revise the whole character. I still want to focus on casting, but now I need to work around a battlefield control/summoner. Any good replacement ideas?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Empyreal sorc/cleric; push conjuration and area control through the sorc (a lot of the good control spells are conjuration, so take spell focus and augment summoning), and save your cleric spells for buffs and healing. Maybe go cleric of Erastil so you get bow proficiency, to give you something to do in your spare rounds.

Dark Archive

Or you could go barbarian/ scared witchdotor. Stack cone to high heaven weak medium armor and still get your hex on. Then after combat strip out of armor and heal or cast long duration buffs.


Problem with the barbarian idea, I still want to focus on being a caster, which is why I've been having difficultly finding information on this. Any time I look for mage based gestalts, they always focus on buffing into a melee monster, not finding ways to be better at being a mage.

And I'm iffy on Empyreal sorc altogether. The Wisdom casting is nice, but it's kind of outweighed by the fact that everything else about eh bloodline is mediocre compared to the other options (especially since I would get the bonus spells anyway as a cleric). Should I just grab a class with a bunch of passive effects and play the character as if it weren't gestalt?


Master Summoner with skill monkey-wand using UMD/ Oracle?? Oracle comes with all kinds of specialties. Until mid to high levels the Summoner spell list is pretty good arcane stuff with the added bonus of near endless Summon Monsters. Oracle gives you entire Cleric line.


Your wizard/Barbarian partner sounds like he just wants a wizard so he's taking the best bonuses he can find.

What kind of stats are you using?


25 point buy, and I suppose that's kind of what I'm looking to do as well. Except replace Wizard with another primary caster, since I don't want to do the same thing as the other player in the name of party diversity.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

the best combos for gestalt are ones that synergize nicely and ones that improve action economy.

a sorc/pally is great because you get to add swift self-heals to your full casting (and have crazy saves and smite), but it sounds like that's not really what you're going for...

a witch/mindchemist (alchemist archetype) isn't quite a full double caster but it has great synergy with Int boosting mutagens, bombs for AoE damage (and some control), extracts for heals/buffs, hexes for control/debuff, and 9:9 casting on one side. you could do this with wizard or sage sorc too but the hexes really are a nice addition (and you said no wiz).

a kensai magus/sage sorcerer doesn't quite come together until 6th level but once you gain the broad study arcana its pretty great. having spell combat as an option for all of your spells is handy (and good for your action economy); you can take staple spells (like shocking grasp) as sorc spells (so you have tons of them per day) and use magus spells for utility (since sage doesn't have the spells known to keep up with a wiz); you get to add Int to AC (on top of defensive magic); and, even though you'd only have 3/4 BAB there are some nice arcana to help your attacks if/when you find combat unavoidable. you could also do this as a witch- the hexes would be a nice addition but i'm not sure the spell list synergizes quite as well as wiz/sorc (though gaining some cure spells would be handy).


The problem with Magus/Sorc is the same one I have with Sorc Pally, unfortunately. I don't WANT to warrior it up, I want to focus on magery. Besides, if we're talking action economy, why not just Factotum as my support? Free standard actions all day, Int to all the things...

I'm a bit iffy on using the Alchemist class, simply because I don't want to have to learn how to cast AND how to alchemize with the same character. That's one of the reasons I was hoping to be some kind of summoner, I could live vicariously through my minions and learn how to control properly while they gave me breathing room. I suppose it could work, but action economy becomes an issue again. The int bonus from Mindchemist is nice, but I'm not sure how to really utilize the rest of the class. I also kind of feel like I should be leaning towards a divine caster, since as was previously mentioned, we should probably have some kind of healing ability at the ready.

And sorry for shooting down basically everything so far, I am painfully indecisive when doing this sort of thing.


Thereddic wrote:

The problem with Magus/Sorc is the same one I have with Sorc Pally, unfortunately. I don't WANT to warrior it up, I want to focus on magery...

And sorry for shooting down basically everything so far, I am painfully indecisive when doing this sort of thing.

So you really want to be a mage? Then how about Druid/ Emp. Sorcerer? Forget, for the most part, offensive wild shape- you're just an air elemental flying above the battle casting any number of divine or arcane spells. You're pretty much tied only to Wisdom with maybe a little Dexterity on the side to keep your A.C. up. Have an animal companion for the action economy win, or if you're an utter fanatic about being all magery take a domain instead.

I know the blood line blows with the Emp. Sorcerer, but think of it as bonus spells and a boost to your will save because you, yes you you lucky magery guy, have only Wisdom to worry about.

Tactically the Druid can spam Summon Nature's Ally which is better if you can scout ahead as a bird, dog, sneaky air elemental, burrowing earth elemental, or monkey. You and your Wiz/Barbarian then throw buffs down and summon things right before battle.


Still technically action economy issues, but it could work, I'm getting good things out of both sides, I can provide support magic as well as controlly stuff, the Druid side gives me access to stuff the Wizard won't have, and Empyreal is slightly less bad since the Cleric spells aren't being made redundant, even if they're still mediocre.

And yes, as I stated in the first post, I do want to play a mage, since I've never had the opportunity to do so before. Maybe I'm reading too much into things, but why do you sound so... resentful about that? Is there something wrong with enjoying caster type characters? Or do you just feel it's a waste of Gestalt's potential to basically just pump up something I could be doing in a regular campaign instead of trying something creative? Sorry if I'm reading too much into things but considering all the pushing towards playing some kind of Gish, I feel like I'm breaking some unwritten rule or something.


Thereddic wrote:

...

And yes, as I stated in the first post, I do want to play a mage, since I've never had the opportunity to do so before. Maybe I'm reading too much into things, but why do you sound so... resentful about that? Is there something wrong with enjoying caster type characters? Or do you just feel it's a waste of Gestalt's potential to basically just pump up something I could be doing in a regular campaign instead of trying something creative?...

First, tone is something hard to convey on message boards. I think what your reading is my pitiful attempts at humor. I think it's great you want be mage-like.

My confusion might be on the distinction magus as class v. caster guys in general being called magery! I've only seen a couple of Magus in play, and they were combat beasts. When they decided to nova the damage they could do was outrageous. Their spellcasting was decidedly tied to their combat prowess. I suggested Druid/Emp. Sorc. with the idea of a caster focused character who can competently rain down a variety of spells with cool class features that would aid in their spellcasting. That build is pretty far from a Gish. (Frankly I don't see any of these build suggestions giving a great, focused gish character.)

Resentful? No, if anything I'm jealous! And just about all these builds would use Gestalt quite well. Just standard caution with arcane spell failure and Cleric and their armor.


If you want Summoner/Caster, I would suggest Bard or Oracle so you can cast in armor. (Plus Cha based spell casting, both have healing and buffing, etc.) The trouble is your saves are bad, especially for Gestalt. One reason so many suggest Caster/Martial combos is to get as many Good saves as you can.

That, or alchemist. Alchemist makes everything better.


It's kinda hard for me to suggest a character because I don't understand what you want. In the opening post you mentioned wanting 2 pets to utilize as your front line and because you would be comfortable with using them as the melee characters you are used to playing. Then people suggest that you can take the melee into your character itself and you say they are trying to push a gish character on you.

In a 25 point buy/gestalt game, pets are going to be fair to poor. I would probably stay away from them (unless you are going for flavor). Paladin/Sorcerer was not suggested so you would "warrior it up" but so you could play a strait sorcerer with the benefit of paladin enhancements (+cha to saves, lay on hands, other passive buffs), the same way your wizard friend is picking barbarian just for extra health and higher attack (casters use base attack too).

Pick a class you want to play. Sorcerer, cleric, druid, oracle, wizard? Look at what stats they need and what other classes go well. Sorcerer and oracle both need charisma. If you only want one class to learn (good idea) take paladin or bard to utilize their passives. Remember that clerics and oracles can wear plate and still cast, this makes paladin really good (adding armor proficiency as well).

You mentioned you don't really want to play a wizard as your friend was going to be a wizard. I think this means you don't want to be a sorcerer either (as it has the same exact spells). This leads me to think you want an oracle. Personally I like nukes when I play casters, so I would go fire oracle (Magical lineage fireball) and go paladin as my secondary class (likely hospitaler for extra healing).


Wizard/Cleric (or druid), at level 5 you switch to Mystic Theurge/Monk. Specialize in abjuration, Travel Domain, and whatever else suits your fancy.

You get ALL OF THE SPELLS and from level 6 on you get harder and harder to kill. Plus, lotta synergy with cleric and monk, not too bad if you stack on some wizard buff spells either. Of course there is even MORE synergy with the ever-popular Scarred Witch-doctor, which abandons Int and draws its spellcasting ability from Con. More HP, more survivability.

So year, Scarred Witch-doctor/Cleric of Apsu, Domains of Travel and...Dragon. Your ritual scarification looks like dragon scales and your mask looks like a dragon because you're creepily and unhealthily into dragons. At level 5 you switch to Mystic Theurge/Monk and start getting your fisticuffs on.

Your stats are 14 14 16 8 16 12 (+2 racial in con) and you carry a Greataxe until unarmed combat becomes worthwhile.

Starting feat is improved initiative, traits are Reactionary and Scaly Ally because reasons, and your starting HP is 12 because your skills are in the crapper and that's the way you likes it.

Edit: Make that 14 14 18 7 17 7, you're ugly and dumb but you start with 13 HP and your spellcasting won't hit a wall at the higher levels.


Alright then. I think I'll try the Empyreal Sorcerer/Druid, theoretically trading some raw offense for the ability to shore of the defenses of the team. Any ideas on how to build this? As I've stated, I'm new to doing magic things, I don't know how to put it all together properly, especially since the only role I figured I'd be familiar with has already been taken


Keep in mind if you want battlefield control the summoner is actually already pretty good at it all on its own. Several of the best battlefield control spells are on its list. You dont necessarily need to get your control casting from the other side of the gestalt. You could use that side to fill in the gaps of your party.

Honestly in a party of 2 gestalt game, where my partner was a barbarian wizard, I would play a summoner inquisitor. Adding some divine magic (remember the summoner can also use its summoner spells to heal the eidolon) and many of the social and stealth skills that no one currently has. Maybe summoner/ninja, but I definately think a 2 person party is one of the few places a summoner is a damned good idea.


Thereddic wrote:
Alright then. I think I'll try the Empyreal Sorcerer/Druid, theoretically trading some raw offense for the ability to shore of the defenses of the team. Any ideas on how to build this? As I've stated, I'm new to doing magic things, I don't know how to put it all together properly, especially since the only role I figured I'd be familiar with has already been taken

It sounds like a fun build. One of the cool things is that your feats, beyond a few must haves like Improved Init. and Wild Spell, are pretty open by mid levels. Metamagic could could be your friend. Treants caster Druid guide has aged pretty well.

Now if you want a Divine gish, Monk/Druid would have you stomping your foes flat. But if you want to cast your heart out, the Druid/Emp. Sorcerer sounds fun to me. Enjoy.


Go Undine and you get a +2 to wisdom and dexterity. End up with a stat block of STR: 6 DEX: 16 CON: 14 INT: 10 WIS: 20 CHA: 10

The 6 strength hurts, but your animal companion can carry all your heavy junk and you won't be DOING melee because you've got so many spells.

Well, you might still want a crossbow.

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