she mentions workingas a tv producer in thr articlr- if this is the case bouncing from field to field may mean from show to show, not job to job.
marrying her bf after finding out she was pregnant and taking a new job to support her new family? More oops situations should be like this, not less.
Still not stable employment
I give them credit for marrying and staying together. doing that after the oops pregnancy is still a lack of initial responsibility
chummer, she works in the tv production field. Noone sticks with just one show any more-the days of cheers, all in the family, the jeffersons and the like are long, long gone. If you produce a show, you have to keep your ear to the ground and be ready to move at a moments notice- unless you are willing to shackle your fortunes to that of a specific show. In today's market THAT would be irresponsible.
In the modern economy, there is no such thing as stable employment. Ask anyone who's been laid off after 10 years.
They bought a house at the top of the market (& 240K in 2008 in CT was not at all outrageous. Pretty low end, depending on where they were).
He lost his job in the recession. Just like millions of others.
also, this. We cant all live in michigan like you, and housing markets vary from place to place.
An interesting article in the Hartford Courant today touching on some of the welfare perception issues we've argued about here.
Picking Up Food Stamps In My Mercedes
Even includes a little bit about buying soda.
I call it 30 seconds or so before someone posts that they should have sold the house and moved to a place where they could grow their own healthy food, and that buying the root beer was shameful.
But maybe I'm too harsh. Perhaps a pretty blonde middle-class lady is "worthy" of WIC.
Selling the house was not an option before the Obama program made it viable to do so, given that the house was already "underwater".
And you may notice that someone tried to shame them about the root beer in the store itself.
Four ourselves, we bought a Sodastream device and carbonate our own soda now.
Me,I just squirt some lemon juice into my water now and that's about it unless there's a sale or we go to the co-op.
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"You guys are living off the high off the hog. I drink brackish water and I like as I should."
This is reminiscent of the Simpsons episode the idea that they were living beyond their means and they should have been more frugal 240K house was beyond their means. No it wasn't, he lost his job and the idea that these people were to blame for their circumstance because they lived beyond their means is ludicrous. As for the oops baby stuff happens they were obviously in a committed relationship perhaps they were not married because they were saving up money. The pregnancy was a catalyst for getting married but seemed like they were there are already or they may have looked into getting an abortion or given the child up for adoption. They had a combined income of 120K a year more than enough to have a 240K house and to take care for the children.
Yet life sent them a curve ball they couldn't hit. It can happen to many people and perhaps their family unlike others could not bail them out. This is the perfect example of the system working. They needed a hand until they could get their lives sorted out and back on their feet, which seems they did thanks to the system. They were fortunate.
I have my problems with the way the system works and I don't think it is handled well and ends up not helping the people it should get back on their feet but this story gives me encouragement not indignation that they should have done something more to prevent themselves from getting in the situation to begin with. This was a win.
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I call it 30 seconds or so before someone posts that they should have sold the house and moved to a place where they could grow their own healthy food, and that buying the root beer was shameful.But maybe I'm too harsh. Perhaps a pretty blonde middle-class lady is "worthy" of WIC.
Selling the house was not an option before the Obama program made it viable to do so, given that the house was already "underwater".
And you may notice that someone tried to shame them about the root beer in the store itself.
Four ourselves, we bought a Sodastream device and carbonate our own soda now.
:)
<my point> .............................:..... <you>
A $240,000 house is not cheap, not something you just jump into without stable employment.Compared to the median price of a home in any area that's in better health than Detroit? That's dirt cheap. 240k is only expensive if your base of comparison is a self-built log cabin somewhere in the sticks of Alaska.
The average price of a house in Jersey City is around three times that amount.
Here in upstate NY, that amount will get you a decent sized house in suburbia. If you are willing to live in any of the metropolitan areas near Albany, you can get single family starter homes in good shape for 85 to 120K, and houses sell for as low as 45K.
Housing markets vary greatly by area. I told my buddy from Boston a few years ago my parents were hoping to get 100K for their house, and he looked at me cross eyed. He has been in their house, and told me he would expect it to fetch at least 400K. I responded "Its in Troy," and slowly it dawned on him what that meant.
Remember also that price was in early 2008, at the height of the housing bubble. And in CT, which isn't cheap. After the crash it was worth $150K according to the story, which sounds like an exageration for CT, but possible in some markets.A $240,000 house is not cheap, not something you just jump into without stable employment.Compared to the median price of a home in any area that's in better health than Detroit? That's dirt cheap. 240k is only expensive if your base of comparison is a self-built log cabin somewhere in the sticks of Alaska.
The average price of a house in Jersey City is around three times that amount.
Here in upstate NY, that amount will get you a decent sized house in suburbia. If you are willing to live in any of the metropolitan areas near Albany, you can get single family starter homes in good shape for 85 to 120K, and houses sell for as low as 45K.
Housing markets vary greatly by area. I told my buddy from Boston a few years ago my parents were hoping to get 100K for their house, and he looked at me cross eyed. He has been in their house, and told me he would expect it to fetch at least 400K. I responded "Its in Troy," and slowly it dawned on him what that meant.
Oh I understand that. I was more pointing out the extreme variations in markets and the differences in perceptions that can cause. Another instance, up here housing prices were remarkably stable and only fell like 10% with the crash. That was because prices stayed relatively stable during the boom. Meanwhile, in other markets houses lost over 50% or more of their value in a very short time. SO to me, I have to actively look for people who were negatively affected by that aspect of the crash, while for other people their entire neighborhood was destroyed.
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Also, just to play your sick game Andrew, you have no idea what the circumstances of their pregnancy was. Short of a bilateral oophorectomy or bilateral orchiectomy no form of birth control is perfect.
My sick game of expecting responsibility? I am willing to bet if it were BC failure they would have said so since the point of this is to feel sorry for them. So i assume they just did what they wanted and this is what happened.
Also, just to play your sick game Andrew, you have no idea what the circumstances of their pregnancy was. Short of a bilateral oophorectomy or bilateral orchiectomy no form of birth control is perfect.My sick game of expecting responsibility? I am willing to bet if it were BC failure they would have said so since the point of this is to feel sorry for them. So i assume they just did what they wanted and this is what happened.
Nonsense. Few are the people who will mention that they had children in ill health for several months because of a busted condom. Not everyone is as crass as you.
I'm sure it's already been mentioned, but Utah's plan could work about anywhere, even in NYC.
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Nonsense. Few are the people who will mention that they had children in ill health for several months because of a busted condom. Not everyone is as crass as you.Also, just to play your sick game Andrew, you have no idea what the circumstances of their pregnancy was. Short of a bilateral oophorectomy or bilateral orchiectomy no form of birth control is perfect.My sick game of expecting responsibility? I am willing to bet if it were BC failure they would have said so since the point of this is to feel sorry for them. So i assume they just did what they wanted and this is what happened.
Few are as honest as me. odds are she forgot pills or they got caught up in the moment and there was no condom. Also relying on those alone is foolish. It is not crass to say it was from a BC failure and not sheer foolish choices
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Few are as honest as me. odds are she forgot pills or they got caught up in the moment and there was no condom. Also relying on those alone is foolish. It is not crass to say it was from a BC failure and not sheer foolish choicesNonsense. Few are the people who will mention that they had children in ill health for several months because of a busted condom. Not everyone is as crass as you.Also, just to play your sick game Andrew, you have no idea what the circumstances of their pregnancy was. Short of a bilateral oophorectomy or bilateral orchiectomy no form of birth control is perfect.My sick game of expecting responsibility? I am willing to bet if it were BC failure they would have said so since the point of this is to feel sorry for them. So i assume they just did what they wanted and this is what happened.
Foolish to rely on condoms AND birth control pills alone? What would you suggest instead?
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So, we can conclude that it's irresponsible to live on a budget larger than what you would earn on minimum wage. It's irresponsible to have sex without making sure that the woman has taken her pill or checked whatever other BC she might be on AND the guy better double up on the condom, just to be safe. Buying a house that you can't buy with cash is also irresponsible. Buying a car is also very questionable, even if you can pay it with cash, because you might have been able to buy a cheaper (but probably also more unreliable, but that's somehow not the point) one.
Sodas, energy drinks and jerky are right out of the question!
In other words, anyone living a better life than Andrew R is Doing it Wrong(tm)!
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Andrew R.'s concern for the poor is palpatine... I mean palpable.
I'm sure it's already been mentioned
Yes, I believe Comrade Giant brought it up.
We were visited by a Utahn who opined that the figure of 3,000 homeless people in the Beehive State was probably seriously underballed and then, surprise, surprise, Citizen R. didn't like the idea, even if it would save taxpayers money. He's a complicated one, that Citizen R.
Anyway, I'm a little late to picking up food stamps in the Mercedes and all I can say is: pffft.
I'm sure it's already been mentioned, but Utah's plan could work about anywhere, even in NYC.
Differences in property values and the reasons for the homelessness may make that ineffective. New york city probably has more homeless people that are homeless because they're crazy than utah has all together.
However many crazy homeless or homeless who want to live that way NY has, there are a lot more who do want the help.
The economics behind the solution of "buy them an apartment" is vastly different in new york where the apartments are much more costly.
The economics behind the solution of "buy them an apartment" is vastly different in new york where the apartments are much more costly.
However many crazy homeless or homeless who want to live that way NY has, there are a lot more who do want the help.
It's why i like dingo's idea for NY. I don't know how it would work, but I do like it. Because real estate in NY is on lockdown. It's crazy expensive.
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Foolish to rely on condoms AND birth control pills alone? What would you suggest instead?Few are as honest as me. odds are she forgot pills or they got caught up in the moment and there was no condom. Also relying on those alone is foolish. It is not crass to say it was from a BC failure and not sheer foolish choicesNonsense. Few are the people who will mention that they had children in ill health for several months because of a busted condom. Not everyone is as crass as you.Also, just to play your sick game Andrew, you have no idea what the circumstances of their pregnancy was. Short of a bilateral oophorectomy or bilateral orchiectomy no form of birth control is perfect.My sick game of expecting responsibility? I am willing to bet if it were BC failure they would have said so since the point of this is to feel sorry for them. So i assume they just did what they wanted and this is what happened.
Condoms alone. Would you swallow a balloon full of poison and hope none leaked? those things are not great. better than nothing but hardly a safe standard.
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So, we can conclude that it's irresponsible to live on a budget larger than what you would earn on minimum wage. It's irresponsible to have sex without making sure that the woman has taken her pill or checked whatever other BC she might be on AND the guy better double up on the condom, just to be safe. Buying a house that you can't buy with cash is also irresponsible. Buying a car is also very questionable, even if you can pay it with cash, because you might have been able to buy a cheaper (but probably also more unreliable, but that's somehow not the point) one.
Sodas, energy drinks and jerky are right out of the question!
In other words, anyone living a better life than Andrew R is Doing it Wrong(tm)!
has nothing to do with a better life, i lack the jealousy so many are afflicted by when talking about social class, i just don't want to be the one paying for it. it has everything to do with be responsible, not party like its the end of the world then demand someone else pay the piper for you. live within your means, try to have a plan, minimize risk. this is not rocket science but sadly most people these days are too damn dumb. wich would be fine if people like me didn't have to bail them out
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Foolish to rely on condoms AND birth control pills alone? What would you suggest instead?Few are as honest as me. odds are she forgot pills or they got caught up in the moment and there was no condom. Also relying on those alone is foolish. It is not crass to say it was from a BC failure and not sheer foolish choicesNonsense. Few are the people who will mention that they had children in ill health for several months because of a busted condom. Not everyone is as crass as you.Also, just to play your sick game Andrew, you have no idea what the circumstances of their pregnancy was. Short of a bilateral oophorectomy or bilateral orchiectomy no form of birth control is perfect.My sick game of expecting responsibility? I am willing to bet if it were BC failure they would have said so since the point of this is to feel sorry for them. So i assume they just did what they wanted and this is what happened.
Of course if one were truly responsible adults one must use ever single form of birth control all at once. So the woman should be on the pill as well as say use a vaginal ring, diaphragm, IUD, female condom, the patch and noroplant and follow it up with a morning after pill just to be sure. The male should use a condom (of course),as well as probably have a vasectomy just to make sure before thinking of sex I mean when he is ready to have children he can just have everything reattached I mean if they were honestly responsible adults and not wanting to take a chance.
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has nothing to do with a better life, i lack the jealousy so many are afflicted by when talking about social class, i just don't want to be the one paying for it. it has everything to do with be responsible, not party like its the end of the world then demand someone else pay the piper for you. live within your means, try to have a plan, minimize risk. this is not rocket science but sadly most people these days are too damn dumb. wich would be fine if people like me didn't have to bail them outSo, we can conclude that it's irresponsible to live on a budget larger than what you would earn on minimum wage. It's irresponsible to have sex without making sure that the woman has taken her pill or checked whatever other BC she might be on AND the guy better double up on the condom, just to be safe. Buying a house that you can't buy with cash is also irresponsible. Buying a car is also very questionable, even if you can pay it with cash, because you might have been able to buy a cheaper (but probably also more unreliable, but that's somehow not the point) one.
Sodas, energy drinks and jerky are right out of the question!
In other words, anyone living a better life than Andrew R is Doing it Wrong(tm)!
R seems to have an aversion to acknowledging privilege, let alone its effects in society, given his extreme view of the less fortunate.
In another thread about the 185 richest families in the USA, Citizen R. anticipated a great wave of class jealousy. He's very upset about having to pay for welfare cheats who buy $20 worth of cookies in a go, or dare to have sex without multiple condoms, but, how does he feel about the vast fortunes accumulated by America's wealthiest families with help from his tax dollars?
I encourage everyone to help out.
1) The Waltons--pretty obvious, not even worth a link
2) The Koches--as I said in the other thread, they helped set up the Democratic Leadership Council, which isn't really germane to the conversation, but is pretty damning on its own
3) The Marses--The Sugar Bailout: A Sweet Handout to Industry Goes Sour for Consumers
Apparently, the federal government has been propping up the price of sugar for the benefit of confectionary capitalists to the tune of $14 billion since 2008, because otherwise, [sniffle sniffle] M&Ms might not be as profitable.
Next up are the Cargills of Cargill, Inc. I saw their name mentioned in another article about the misuse of farm bills, but I want to give others an opportunity to participate.
Three threads in one!
3) The Marses--The Sugar Bailout: A Sweet Handout to Industry Goes Sour for Consumers
Upon closer reading, and some more googling, I am sad to report that it looks like the National Confectioners Association, including Mars and friends, is/was actually lobbying AGAINST the sugar bailout for the obvious reason that it would raise their production costs.
I apologize for the calumny and slander. Woopsie.
Huh? Pfft, what do you want? I load trucks for a living.
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News from the Dice Manse
Dude, I had not planned to enact that into law. What happened was I took Dicey the House Goblin to the council meeting, and he was dancing around rhyming words with underwater mortgage (not even real rhymes though, junk like "funderwater supportgage")while we were going over the bill, so I was all, "Dicey, shut it, the grown ups are talking!"
Dicey repiled "Should I wait outside then, m'lord?"
"YES!" sez I, y'know, like really passionately.
The head coucilman said, "That's wonderful, sign here!" and shoved the paper in my face. I was so distracted that I just signed it, so now it's a fricken law, and I can't kick people out of their houses--no, wait, my houses--at the drop of hat anymore!
I swear, if I had the chance to re-geld that goblin, I'd take the franks along with the beans just for good measure.
[Fistbumps Dicey]
Good work, comrade.
Condoms alone. Would you swallow a balloon full of poison and hope none leaked? those things are not great. better than nothing but hardly a safe standard.Foolish to rely on condoms AND birth control pills alone? What would you suggest instead?Few are as honest as me. odds are she forgot pills or they got caught up in the moment and there was no condom. Also relying on those alone is foolish. It is not crass to say it was from a BC failure and not sheer foolish choicesNonsense. Few are the people who will mention that they had children in ill health for several months because of a busted condom. Not everyone is as crass as you.Also, just to play your sick game Andrew, you have no idea what the circumstances of their pregnancy was. Short of a bilateral oophorectomy or bilateral orchiectomy no form of birth control is perfect.My sick game of expecting responsibility? I am willing to bet if it were BC failure they would have said so since the point of this is to feel sorry for them. So i assume they just did what they wanted and this is what happened.
what are you saying here? That she should rely on condoms alone or that condoms alone are a bad idea? You are caught up in your hyperbole here, I think.
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Doodles, I didn't even do anything aside keep from myself occupied and go outside when I was told to. All I know is, it was real quiet carriage ride back Manse Dice, and when we got there m'lord Dice said, "Well, Dicey, I may not be able to evict you, but I can do this."
He put me in the pillory, had the kitchen staff gather all the rotten vegetables they could find and threw them at me himself, and he's not the type of guy to get his hand dirty unless he's feeling really emotional. When he was done, I saw he had all the hall-boys lining up with the chamber pots, and I yelled, "You can't, in a pre-industrial world like this one, urine's a commodity you can sell to the tannery guild; Think of the money you're losing!"
"Oh don't you worry," he said. "I certainly plan to tan one hide today."
So if I had to guess, I'd say it was pretty disappointing council meeting.
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has nothing to do with a better life, i lack the jealousy so many are afflicted by when talking about social class, i just don't want to be the one paying for it. it has everything to do with be responsible, not party like its the end of the world then demand someone else pay the piper for you. live within your means, try to have a plan, minimize risk. this is not rocket science but sadly most people these days are too damn dumb. wich would be fine if people like me didn't have to bail them outSo, we can conclude that it's irresponsible to live on a budget larger than what you would earn on minimum wage. It's irresponsible to have sex without making sure that the woman has taken her pill or checked whatever other BC she might be on AND the guy better double up on the condom, just to be safe. Buying a house that you can't buy with cash is also irresponsible. Buying a car is also very questionable, even if you can pay it with cash, because you might have been able to buy a cheaper (but probably also more unreliable, but that's somehow not the point) one.
Sodas, energy drinks and jerky are right out of the question!
In other words, anyone living a better life than Andrew R is Doing it Wrong(tm)!
going back to the article, she did everything you suggested here and things still went wrong. Its almost as if there are no guarantees in life.
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Doodles, I didn't even do anything
[On the radio to the Free NH Goblin Resistance headquarters]
Red Squirrel to Nest, come in Nest. Red Squirrel to Nest, come in Nest.
Wassup, my brother? Yeah, so, the behavioral modification implants are working like gangbusters. Yeah, it was a piece of cake, Dicey's always spouting nonsense anyway, so, no, nobody noticed. Yeah, there was some blowback for the eunuch, but nothing he's not used to. Anyway, yeah, the prototype works fine, begin the preparations for Operation: Manchuria.
Red Squirrel out. Vive le Galt!
@Andrew R. I would have thought you would hold this story up as a perfect example (bar a few cans of soda) of how the welfare system should work. A "normal" couple who need no handouts gets into financial trouble due to a range of things based mainly around unfortunate timing and issues outside their control. For a short period of time they need to get government handouts to get them back on their feet. Now they are sorted out and back to their previous life.
A brief period of trouble, some government help and problems solved. Isn't it a text book example of how welfare should work?
Yet you choose to focus on the root beer and pregnancy and call her a childish name.
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@Andrew R. I would have thought you would hold this story up as a perfect example (bar a few cans of soda) of how the welfare system should work. A "normal" couple who need no handouts gets into financial trouble due to a range of things based mainly around unfortunate timing and issues outside their control. For a short period of time they need to get government handouts to get them back on their feet. Now they are sorted out and back to their previous life.
A brief period of trouble, some government help and problems solved. Isn't it a text book example of how welfare should work?
Yet you choose to focus on the root beer and pregnancy and call her a childish name.
They made mistakes, the article sounds like it was little more than an attempt to get sympathy for them, it failed. Yes i will be critical of what i consider foolish choices but over all they did little wrong. They sound like they worked to get off the system and make a decent life thereafter and that is what the system is meant to do. But this story is still no defense of how so many misuse and abuse the system.
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Also, just to play your sick game Andrew, you have no idea what the circumstances of their pregnancy was. Short of a bilateral oophorectomy or bilateral orchiectomy no form of birth control is perfect.My sick game of expecting responsibility? I am willing to bet if it were BC failure they would have said so since the point of this is to feel sorry for them. So i assume they just did what they wanted and this is what happened.No. Your sick game of blaming people for their misfortune.
For blaming her for having the audacity to pursue a career in an industry that involves moving from gig to gig because it doesn't meet your definition of stable. Never mind that she's not the one who lost her job.
For blaming her for getting pregnant because she didn't keep her legs together.
For her and her husband buying a house well within their means until they lost 75% of their income, without warning.
For having the audacity to not live the life of ascetic deprivation and austerity they would have had to to meet your ridiculous standard of 'responsibility'.
I don't know why I even bother. By your own statements the only reason the poor are poor is because they're stupid, lazy, and evil. Then again, but your own statements, you're poor. So begone, peon. Come back when you can prove you've made proper restitution for your sins by not being poor.
i blame them for misfortunes they choose. She chose to work in an unstable industry.
Pregnancy is almost completely preventable so yes i will blame them for that.The article says nothing about them abusing the system so my idea of responsible use of money is no issue here. I even defended her choice to get a pop once in a while, as opposed to what i see every day of multiple 2 liters daily being the norm.
I have no issue with the poor, said it MANY times. i have a problem with takers and how they abuse other peoples money. I have a problem with the stupid that make bad choices and cry poor me.
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wall of text
WOW there is so much stupid in that. Call me greedy for wanting to own what i earn without any one else just taking it if you want. That is most certainly not the definition of jealous no matter your mental gymnastics.
Sure being a responsible person can involves asking for help, but first comes doing the right thing to try to not need help. It also includes making the right use of that help not pissing it away for fun. yes it does mean paying the bills before having fun.
Hindsight might be 20/20 but you do not have to be a rocket scientist to plan for likely future events. Saving money for unseen disaster is never a wrong answer. Asops fables Ant and the Grasshopper is very relevant here, the ant prepared for winter, the grasshopper played in the sun. Don't be a grasshopper if you want to eat in the winter.
You can make smart choices and still be poor but live better and without being a taker. Junk food is cheaper than healthy food you say? a bag of beans or rice is cheaper than doritos, a box of tea that lasts me weeks costs less than most of my customers spend on pop daily. high calorie junk is killing us, we are not getting huge amounts of needed nutrition that goes far beyond just calories.
An Iphone will not give you a better shot at a job than a cheaper phone, the best laptop will not make the internet give you more than a cheaper one. it does nothing to minimize risk but wastes resources so becomes a risk
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In another thread about the 185 richest families in the USA, Citizen R. anticipated a great wave of class jealousy. He's very upset about having to pay for welfare cheats who buy $20 worth of cookies in a go, or dare to have sex without multiple condoms, but, how does he feel about the vast fortunes accumulated by America's wealthiest families with help from his tax dollars?
I encourage everyone to help out.
1) The Waltons--pretty obvious, not even worth a link
2) The Koches--as I said in the other thread, they helped set up the Democratic Leadership Council, which isn't really germane to the conversation, but is pretty damning on its own3) The Marses--The Sugar Bailout: A Sweet Handout to Industry Goes Sour for Consumers
Apparently, the federal government has been propping up the price of sugar for the benefit of confectionary capitalists to the tune of $14 billion since 2008, because otherwise, [sniffle sniffle] M&Ms might not be as profitable.
Next up are the Cargills of Cargill, Inc. I saw their name mentioned in another article about the misuse of farm bills, but I want to give others an opportunity to participate.
That is also wrong and a firm sign of the corruption of campaign money. No company should be able to get out of taxes let alone get a bigger return out of the pot.
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R seems to have an aversion to acknowledging privilege, let alone its effects in society, given his extreme view of the less fortunate.has nothing to do with a better life, i lack the jealousy so many are afflicted by when talking about social class, i just don't want to be the one paying for it. it has everything to do with be responsible, not party like its the end of the world then demand someone else pay the piper for you. live within your means, try to have a plan, minimize risk. this is not rocket science but sadly most people these days are too damn dumb. wich would be fine if people like me didn't have to bail them outSo, we can conclude that it's irresponsible to live on a budget larger than what you would earn on minimum wage. It's irresponsible to have sex without making sure that the woman has taken her pill or checked whatever other BC she might be on AND the guy better double up on the condom, just to be safe. Buying a house that you can't buy with cash is also irresponsible. Buying a car is also very questionable, even if you can pay it with cash, because you might have been able to buy a cheaper (but probably also more unreliable, but that's somehow not the point) one.
Sodas, energy drinks and jerky are right out of the question!
In other words, anyone living a better life than Andrew R is Doing it Wrong(tm)!
Ok i think i caught my breath from laughing at this. Privilege? are you &^%$ing kidding me? i came from about as poor as you can get. i have worked for the things i want and need since i was a child. I learned to sew very young because if i ripped my pants i had to sew them since we could not afford more. My HATRED for stupid comes from having to live with nothing and doing it right. My "extreme view" that they need to worry about work before play has been the norm of most people before this generation of eternal children that think they should be allowed to play the day away and let someone else have the bill