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Assuming level 15, where a Monk would have BAB +11; With maneuver training, but without any kind of flurry ability, he could go
Trip +15/Trip +10
With Flurry of Blows, he could go
+13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3 with trips or attacks.
A level 15 maneuver master goes
(+11 attack or +13 maneuver)/(+6 attack or +8 maneuver)/+13 maneuver/+10 maneuver/+3 maneuver.
The first two are his full attack at BAB +11. If used for maneuvers, they take the -2 penalty for his 1. level ability. The +13 maneuver is his first level bonus maneuver, also at -2. The +10 attack is his 8th level bonus attack, which suffers an additional -3 penalty. The +3 attack is his 15th level bonus attack, which suffers an additional -7 penalty (and is worthless).
But anyways, Maneuver Master is a one or two level dip for a proper martial, not something you play for real.
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The problem is that the Maneuver master gets the penalties to all his maneuvers that turn.
So his extra maneuvers would be all at +3. In fact, even his highest BAB if used for a maneuver, would be +5 I think.
Yup. This can and should be House ruled or errata'd but as is...Maneuver Master is a pretty awful Archetype for anything but a dip.
People need to read the entirety of the archetype, the level 15 ability allows a MAneuver against every person in range. Level 11 ability allows movement and 2 Maneuvers. Assuming a Trip/reposition Monk were looking at
Trip +36/+36/+31/+26 then reposion +34/+31/24. All Trip attempts trigger an Aoo from Threatening allies ant the monk, Anything landing on its ass gets hit by the monk again. All repositions trigger aoo. Between target falling on its ass and being reppositioned all above numbers can add +4 for prone +2 for flank. Additionally Greater heroism or a bard raises all of the above by +4 )g heroism) or inspire courage +5.
Really do not look at it in a vacume. In non opimal conditions he would striggle to do a menuver vs a Rune giant cr 17 cmd 44. However, One Swift action Reroll on a Trip or Drag runs those numbers around.
When we finished Skull and shackles if the above character had been in the game, he would bave basically destroyed most of the end encounters by himself.
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The problem is that the Maneuver master gets the penalties to all his maneuvers that turn.
I've heard that before, and I'm still not convinced.
At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action. The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers, though all combat maneuver checks suffer a –2 penalty when using a flurry.
At 8th level, a maneuver master may attempt a second additional combat maneuver, with an additional –3 penalty on combat maneuver checks.
At 15th level, a maneuver master may attempt a third additional combat maneuver, with an additional –7 penalty on combat maneuver checks.
At level 1, you get [an additional combat maneuver] and [-2 on ALL combat maneuvers]. That's the only way to read it, and it's reasonable.
At level 8, I believe text says [Additional combat maneuver with additional -3], while others believe it says "Option: [Additional Combat Maneuver] AND [Additional -3 on (all) Combat maneuvers].
It's true that the optimal way of phrasing it would have been "with an additional -3 penalty on the combat maneuver check [singular]". But on the other hand, it doesn't say "though all combat maneuver checks suffer an additional -3 penalty" either.
The text is vague, and can not be parsed mechanically, only interpreted. Seriously. Both outcomes are perfectly valid readings of the text.
Given that, the one that makes the ability better as you level up, and more closely resembles the attack routine of the regular monk, is most likely the intended reading.
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If your goal is pure damage output, you are right, there are better ways than the maneuver master build. If your goal is debuffing and battlefield control then this build is pretty helpful. I am currently playing this character at Level 6 in PFS and he is a hoot! That Flurry of Maneuvers just had me wondering a bit.
This is absolutely true if people interpret Flurry of Maneuvers the way Pupsocket is. Sadly, I'm not convinced that's RAW, though it's almost certainly RAI.
I was referring to if people interpreted it the other way. -12 to all maneuvers when you flurry is not a happy number.
Uhh actually they are totally fine for damaage. Many maneuvers trigger attacks Sandpoint several around overrun Sandpoint trip triigger a lot of them.
To answer th earlier queztion th attacks listed were for a hasted lvl 15 maneuver master.
hasted mm monk is +12/+12/*7/+2 for non maneuver part of fom. He alsogets 3 maneuvers at +13/+10/+5 for 7 attacks.
Only problem is he can trigger 2 Aoo per attacks. Sandpoint noone outside of a kensai has. That many Aoo usually
I find it odd otherwise intelligent people either misss or rewrite I formation based on preconcieved notikns. Although maybe I'm not surprised. Look th mm Minkai is not optimal for every game. But for some games he's amazing.
Th monk I presented above can probably btech rewrittej to trip someon drag th I to flank Sandpoint blind them. In these 3 actions he will trip th drag Sandpoint blind them.
Here is th amazing part.... all gasp at full bab. That th last maneuver is at -7 is meaningless because you tripped Sandpoint dragged hime and now have a flank. Assuming only two people he's been hit 6 times Sandpoint you still have 4 iterative attacks left from flank on a prone blinded person.
No one else can really di this the lore warden comes close th barb is distant.
Or try this your ally has omeone flanked you walkena behind the enemy and do two maneuvers. Triggering about 4 attacks.
Sigh.. I have to fix the auto correct on my tablet. I reloaded the keyboard but it only has pathfinder words saves. If I do not notice it I get gibberish.
What I was trying to say is a lore warden can be good at maneuvers and a barbarian can be really good at grapple sunder or overrun. However a control focused maneuver master can mitigate or ignore the fact that he is only a 3/4 bab class.
Once you get off the first maneuver you turn the target into a near helpless cripple who be the victim of 2-6:aoo on your first three maneuvers. How much you make use of this is you and your group to figure out.
Sorry missed the question. Really the answer lies a lot in how you play your character or want to. Most people in my experience focus on 1 or 2 maneuvers. Barbarians do grapple and overrun well for example. But he doesn't need maneuver master to be good at either of these.
Really there is a difference in my mind at least between playing Thog back breaker the mangler of men and master wong sensei of the 9th house of flowers.
The first simply runs over every opponent and smashes them as his mighty thews trip their back in a crushing embrace.
In the case of master Wong you might ponder was he always standing behind you reciting haiku and the moment you blink your on your ass.and have been moved 30 feet next to Thog back breaker.
Its a different playstyle but those lvl 11 and 15 abilities are really nice. I simply wanted to demonstrate the ops origonsl premise that the penalties for fom were crippling.
Simply put you can't look at characters in a vacume. High mobility with multiple control choices against the right type of opponents is amazing.
Please ignore the standpoint thing. I deleted .y tablets dictionary to fix it.moving on.
Really show me where a barbarian can do 3 maneuvers and 4 attacks. I've already demonstrated the mm will succeed at his maneuvers vs a giant 2 2 cr higher than his level.
No other class in the game can do 3 standard action maneuvers followed by 4 attacks. Or move and do 2 maneuvers.