We're thinking about putting together an all-dwarven group to make a run at this - Emerald Spire has bumped Mummy's Mask right off the table as we all think we could use some old-school dungeon delving after RP-rich AP's the past few years.
It'll be a four-man group (most likely) and will be using Paizo material and a 15 point buy with max level reaching 13th. The party is a little more geared towards combat optimization than we usually have, but that's kind of the point, isn't it?
This is the party so far - any advice or comments would be most welcome:
Dex 7
Con 14 (+2 racial bonus)
Int 12
Wis 14 (+2 racial bonus, +1 @ 8th & 12th)
Cha 15 (-2 racial penalty, +1 @ 4th)
Traits:
Community Minded
Blessed Touch
Feats:
1st Extra Channel
3rd Selective Channel
5th Turn Undead
7th Extra Channel
9th Extra Channel
11th Divine Interference
13th Protective Channel
The thought was to have at least one competent face (Touch of Glory) though the player is going to have some fun playing up his lack of Dexterity as his being quite fat and overly fond of food and strong drink. He's the leader of the group but is essentially non-combatant, filling the role of buffing and healing instead.
Dex 14
Con 14 (+2 racial bonus)
Int 12
Wis 12 (+2 racial bonus)
Cha 7 (-2 racial penalty, +1 @ 12th)
Traits:
Reactionary
Glory of Old
Feats & Rage Powers:
1st Raging Vitality
2nd Lesser Beast Totem
3rd Endurance
4th Quick Reflexes
5th Iron Will
6th Toughness
7th Beast Totem
7th Power Attack
9th Increased DR
9th Extra Rage Power: Increased DR
11th Greater Beast Totem
11th Combat Reflexes
13th Come and Get Me
13th Raging Brutality
Backstory for these guys is that they're twins sharing some sort of ancient bloodline - we're highjacking the Living Monolith PrC for a level at 6th to reflect that. Had to give up some stuff to make that possible, but the players really like the concept. Should be two very potent front-liners with the Cleric backing them up.
Str 12
Dex 14
Con 12 (+2 racial bonus)
Int 10
Wis 16 (+2 racial bonus, +1 @ 4th & 8th)
Cha 7 (-2 racial penalty, +1 @ 12th)
Traits:
Honored Fist of the Society
Glory of Old
Feats & Rogue Talents:
1st Toughness
1st Precise Shot
1st Perfect Strike
1st Improved Unarmed Strike
2nd Point Blank Shot
2nd Weapon Focus
3rd Deadly Aim
3rd Point Blank Master
5th Trap Spotter
5th Improved Initiative
7th Arcane Strike
8th Improved Precise Shot
8th Weapon Specialization: Bow
9th Extra Ki
11th Extra Ki
12th Improved Critical: Bow
13th Clustered Shots
Ki Powers:
6th Barkskin
7th Truestrike
9th Wholeness of Body
13th Shadow Step
We wanted a character who could serve as an effective scout/trap-finder and ranged threat. The Rogue levels are taken at 4th and 5th.
That Cleric...
...
7 Dex...7 Dex and trying to play a channeling cleric with a Dwarf...
That Cleric...
...
7 Dex...7 Dex and trying to play a channeling cleric with a Dwarf...
The player thought it'd be a dump state he could role-play, with Clerics being so MAD and 15 point buys being so limiting.
Is it the Initiative, the Reflex save or the AC penalty you think is the problem? Which stats do you think are too high?
I suppose we could do something more like...
STR 10
DEX 10
CON 14 +2
INT 12
WIS 14 +2
CHA 13 -2
Drops the face skills of our only Charismatic character and reduces the number of channels by 2/day, but... his Reflex save will be a bit better?
Look, there's roleplaying character flaws, and there's causing headaches for the party. Dex is just far too important of a stat to dump.
If he's not going to be doing anything but spellcasting in combat, you can drop his strength to 7 since he won't need it (Dwarves are never encumbered, so carrying capacity is not an issue).
Unless he is planning on alternative channeling or channeling vs TONS of undead (which, again, channeling as a primary focus for a dwarf is extremely sub optimal) he should also drop some Extra channeling feats for...idk, other stuff, Improved Initiative (definitely this). Meta magic feats maybe? Toughness. etc. I also don't think Selective Channel is worth it imo.
If you can, get his Wisdom up to 17 or 18, because he should be focused on divine spellcasting, not healbotting with channels all combat (that is a serious losing prospect which does minimal amounts of help).
Refer to this Cleric guide for more comprehensive advice Esp on how to play a cleric.
I think a lot of people really misunderstand what the Cleric should be doing vs what they expect it to do.
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Depending on the cleric build they can be mad. But you can still go SAD with a Dwarf. I would be fine with a 8, 12, 15, 8, 20, 10 Cleric. Very happy indeed.
If you want to go the route of a Channel specialist (god that is the worst way to play a cleric and should be rethought. Just forget Channeling exists works better.) You will need to get more Mad by boosting Cha. But channels are one of the weaker abilities of a cleric.
I thought Dwarves can be encumbered... just that their movement speed is not affected by Encumberance or Armor
"Dwarves have a base speed of 20 feet, but their speed is never modified by armor or encumbrance."
Well...it's not worded to preclude Max Dex or the ACP penalty for Encumberance...I guess they can be encumbered? It doesn't really seem to make a difference if they are though...
For fun.
Nobody likes having The Load in their party.
Nah, you just need to go in aware of the costs. The guide you linked even rates Dex as the dump stat for some concepts.
His idea of "Dump" is no less than 10. Personally I've never made a character with less than a 12.
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Nobody likes having The Load in their party.
And dumping Dex does not make you such a character.
His idea of "Dump" is no less than 10. Personally I've never made a character with less than a 12.
I have. Seen plenty of others do so too. Working with it isn't optimal, but you don't have to be optimal to succeed.
We're thinking about putting together an all-dwarven group to make a run at this - Emerald Spire has bumped Mummy's Mask right off the table as we all think we could use some old-school dungeon delving after RP-rich AP's the past few years.
It'll be a four-man group (most likely) and will be using Paizo material and a 15 point buy with max level reaching 13th. The party is a little more geared towards combat optimization than we usually have, but that's kind of the point, isn't it?
This is the party so far - any advice or comments would be most welcome:
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
There's a sorcerer archetype (under the Celestial blood line) that uses Wisdom instead of Charisma, and I'm a fan of having an arcane caster if all possible. But you did say "that's kind of the point" to be uber martial. Good luck.
I don't think your Zen Archer needs Rogue levels to be a scout or a trap finder. Someone with a better memory than me can tell you the exact wording of the trait that gives you trap finding - I think it's called Trap Finding of all things. There's at least one other trait that gives you an arcane cantrip for arcane strike if that's a concern. Anyway, the Rogue levels are a trap themselves as they slow down all the great ZAM goodies and I believe will cost you a BAB point as well.
I like the concept of an all Dwarf party- sounds fun.
Look, there's roleplaying character flaws, and there's causing headaches for the party. Dex is just far too important of a stat to dump.
If he's not going to be doing anything but spellcasting in combat, you can drop his strength to 7 since he won't need it (Dwarves are never encumbered, so carrying capacity is not an issue).
The primary thought process behind the Cleric was that the rest of the group, being comprised of martials, would have a much longer adventuring day than most groups, especially at the lower to middling levels... the only thing holding them back would be their one truly exhaustible resource, their hit points. Having someone capable of replenishing them readily without having to dip overmuch into the rest of his spell stores seemed like a good way to go. Also, we don't build characters based on the presumption of gear, so no assuming that we'll have Cure wands, potions and scrolls in constant supply.
To be fair, our group generally doesn't care for prepared casters and the only prior experience with a Cleric was a 1-20 run through Way of the Wicked where the focus was on 'bad touch', specifically a weaponized Planeshift.
So, on advice, I researched a little more, talked to the player in question and have made the following tweaks:
Dwarven Cleric (Healing-Restoration, Glory-Heroism) 13
Attributes:
Str 8
Dex 14
Con 12 (+2 racial bonus)
Int 12
Wis 14 (+2 racial bonus, +1 @ 8th & 12th)
Cha 13 (-2 racial penalty, +1 @ 4th)
Traits:
Community Minded
Reactionary
Feats:
1st Improved Initiative
3rd Selective Channel
5th Quick Channel
7th Extra Channel
9th Quicken Spell
11th Divine Interference
13th Protective Channel
* - alternate channeling (Bravery/Valor)
The shift in mechanical concept leans now more heavily on action economy than longevity. Being able to spontaneously cast Empowered Cure spells will still allow for plenty of between-combat healing as needed and now most combats should last a round or two less, necessitating less healing overall.
The build is set up to utilize the alternate channeling to kick off 3-5 combats a day (useful since we'll eventually have two Pounce-capable characters) as a move action, Aura of Heroism as a Swift and spells like Blessing of Fervor or Communal Protection vs. Evil as a standard. Divine Interference will be used primarily as a Crit-eraser.
Thoughts?
There's a sorcerer archetype (under the Celestial blood line) that uses Wisdom instead of Charisma, and I'm a fan of having an arcane caster if all possible. But you did say "that's kind of the point" to be uber martial. Good luck.
I don't think your Zen Archer needs Rogue levels to be a scout or a trap finder. Someone with a better memory than me can tell you the exact wording of the trait that gives you trap finding - I think it's called Trap Finding of all things. There's at least one other trait that gives you an arcane cantrip for arcane strike if that's a concern. Anyway, the Rogue levels are a trap themselves as they slow down all the great ZAM goodies and I believe will cost you a BAB point as well.
I like the concept of an all Dwarf party- sounds fun.
Honestly, for the first time in forever, we have more than four people wanting to play - in addition to our four dwarves, there are two more people who have expressed interest in a Human Arcane Sorcerer and a Halfling Archeologist which would therefor allow the Zen Archer to focus 100% on being an artillery platform. It actually gave us a chuckle when we realized it, a Human arcane caster, four dwarves and a halfling rogue type... all we're missing is a dragon and some giant eagles.
Don't know for sure if those other two will work out long term though.
EDIT: Just did some research - Trap Finder is a campaign trait from the Mummy's Mask. We generally don't allow those, but I'll talk to the GM. It certainly seems ideal.
if the only reason for someone to play a cleric is that, then add an npc cleric that follows up at the end of combat and take a share of the loot in exchange for the healing he provides.
i know its not optimal, but it frees up whoever is stuck playing a cleric to do whatever he wants
recommending an arcane caster
at lower levels they are anotehr martial character (even if not as effective)
at mid-high levels they explode in power and utility
and they get ALOT of skill points (some anyways)
if the only reason for someone to play a cleric is that, then add an npc cleric that follows up at the end of combat and take a share of the loot in exchange for the healing he provides.
i know its not optimal, but it frees up whoever is stuck playing a cleric to do whatever he wants
Actually, that's just what he wants. Takes all kinds, thank god.
wow, i cant believe my 4 AM solution wasn't immediately shot down, much less makes sense