Take a look at the Great Old One Bokrug. Notice he is a large magical beast, which covered by Beast Shape 4. Nothing seems to be stopping you from being less scary version of the thing itself, but is it actually a worthwhile shape? Here's what you'd get by my calculations:
-Bite (1d8)
-2 claws (1d6)
-sting (1d6) + poison 1r/6r, 2d4 wisdom
-tentacle beard (1d6) + grab + constrict (1d6?)
-Dark vision
-swim speed
-20 resist cold, fire, acid
-You are a great old one in spirit though not mechanically
Seems like an okay package, but obviously less awesome looking with the damage dice sizes defaulted back to normal. Assuming there isn't some a special rule somewhere that makes him an invalid target for Wild Shape/Beast Shape 4, would you actually consider using him for his mechanical benefits? The concept is cool, but I'm not sure myself.
Seems like an okay package, but obviously less awesome looking with the damage dice sizes defaulted back to normal. Assuming there isn't some a special rule somewhere that makes him an invalid target for Wild Shape/Beast Shape 4, would you actually consider using him for his mechanical benefits? The concept is cool, but I'm not sure myself.
Why would you do that? I might have missed something, but I don't see anything in the statblock saying that 4d8 is not the base damage of his attacks.
Take a look at the Great Old One Bokrug. Notice he is a large magical beast, which covered by Beast Shape 4.
Wild Shape never functions as beast shape iv - it caps at beats shape iii for animals. Druids can never wild shape into a magical beast.
If you cast beast shape iv, however, I agree with Pupsocket - why would you say the damage dice shrink?
Well, you can't Wild Shape into large magical beasts since it A) doesn't work on magical beasts; and B) only goes to beast shape 4. Unless there's some fancy archetype feature I missed.
But sure, the spell would allow it, technically. Of course, the GM may deny it.
5 natural attacks per round plus grab/constrict and a serious wisdom poison... sounds pretty useful to me. the wisdom damage would be devastating for a Wis based caster and (except monks) few other things have enough Wis to stay conscious for more that 2-3 failed saves!
i could see using this as a dwarven druid- crank Con for a really tough DC on the poison and exploit others lack of wisdom by using poison for quick KOs. add strong jaw and the damage output should be decent too.
i could also see it for a wizard (maybe as an NPC) who has something against divine casters- beast shape 4 plus transformation would make for a serious melee threat with potentially enough Con for a tough poison save (this is especially true if you're already built for melee, like an EK build or a melee transmuter).
edit: look at me, just assuming that the OP's question was feasible. what a sucker. i think the wizard idea still works though, right?
Is it awesome?
Yes.
That makes this worth it right there.
FYI - you can't polymorph into the shape of a unique creature.
Also, poison DC is based on the spell DC, not Con.
FYI - you can't polymorph into the shape of a unique creature.
The Polymorph rules actually don't say that, they say you can't look like a specific individual of a species. They don't limit you if only one individual species exists, you just look like a generic specimen of it's species (whatever Bokrug's species is).
Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type. Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature.
I really love this idea though. It's just too bad Druid can't use it and those who can tend to be less suited for melee. Now combined with the mythic archmage ability that raises your BAB to your total HD it should be fun.
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I'm just going to leave this here...
Not that my Lunar Oracle of Groetus hasn't been working towards this for a while...
Form of the Beast (Su): As a standard action, you can assume the form of a Small or Medium animal, as beast shape I. At 9th level, you can assume the form of a Tiny or Large animal, as beast shape II.
At 11th level, you can assume the form of a Diminutive or Huge animal or a Small or Medium magical beast, as beast shape III. At 13th level, you can assume the form of a Tiny or Large magical beast, as beast shape IV. You can use this ability once per day, but the duration is 1 hour/level. You must be at least 7th level to select this revelation.
Not at all...
FYI - you can't polymorph into the shape of a unique creature.
The Polymorph rules actually don't say that, they say you can't look like a specific individual of a species. They don't limit you if only one individual species exists, you just look like a generic specimen of it's species (whatever Bokrug's species is).
Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type. Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature.I really love this idea though. It's just too bad Druid can't use it and those who can tend to be less suited for melee. Now combined with the mythic archmage ability that raises your BAB to your total HD it should be fun.
Personally, I would say that Great Old Ones are unique creatures by default. There is no species that they belong to that you shapeshift into. It would be like trying to polymorph into the shape of a demon lord (if there was a spell that could give you a demon form).
This looks like a pretty awesome form for a 12th level Sylvan bloodline sorcerer to Beast Shape IV her animal companion into. Especially since said sorcerer will have Eschew Materials...wizards, alchemists, magi and others without that feat have to first procure the material component of the spell:
a piece of the creature whose form you plan to assume
Yeah, good luck with that.
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This looks like a pretty awesome form for a 12th level Sylvan bloodline sorcerer to Beast Shape IV her animal companion into. Especially since said sorcerer will have Eschew Materials...wizards, alchemists, magi and others without that feat have to first procure the material component of the spell:
a piece of the creature whose form you plan to assumeYeah, good luck with that.
Eschew Materials and False Focus are easy to obtain feats. They aren't Sorcerer only and frankly, I would take one on any spellcaster.
If Eschew Materials works, that means the item costs less than 1gp. So either Bokrug's toenail clippings have been widely distributed across the lands and can be found in every component pouch, or sorcerers can't do it either.
If Eschew Materials works, that means the item costs less than 1gp. So either Bokrug's toenail clippings have been widely distributed across the lands and can be found in every component pouch, or sorcerers can't do it either.
Since it doesn't cost more then 1 GP, Eschew Materials or False Focus works. Unless you have a price on it. Could you cite that page number please?
If Eschew Materials works, that means the item costs less than 1gp. So either Bokrug's toenail clippings have been widely distributed across the lands and can be found in every component pouch, or sorcerers can't do it either.Since it doesn't cost more then 1 GP, Eschew Materials or False Focus works. Unless you have a price on it. Could you cite that page number please?
"It has begun....."
Hmmmm. don't think it's work. Polymorph subshool says:
"Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals."
I'm pretty sure that each of the Great Old Ones (hail Cthulhu! :P) is a specific individual.
One may need to prove Bokrug is currently active. Otherwise any of his pieces would have evaporated as per his immortality from the last time he was defeated.
Lots of comments in this thread say wild shape caps at beast shape iv, but it doesn't. The caps are:
8th - beast shape III
12th - plant shape III, and elemental body IV
If Eschew Materials works, that means the item costs less than 1gp. So either Bokrug's toenail clippings have been widely distributed across the lands and can be found in every component pouch, or sorcerers can't do it either.Since it doesn't cost more then 1 GP, Eschew Materials or False Focus works. Unless you have a price on it. Could you cite that page number please?
If it costs less than 1GP, it's available in all towns and most villages.
The feat, as requested. I would also say that clippings from a unique creature would cost more than 1gp.
Eschew Materials
You can cast many spells without needing to utilize minor material components.
Benefit: You can cast any spell with a material component costing 1 gp or less without needing that component. The casting of the spell still provokes attacks of opportunity as normal. If the spell requires a material component that costs more than 1 gp, you must have the material component on hand to cast the spell, as normal
Ah I was looking at Desert Druid and Cave which allow vermin and oozes as Beast Shape 4 and just confused them.
In regards to resetting the damage dice look at the undefined (at least online as I can't find it) "power blows" that he has listed as affecting all his natural attacks. I am assuming that is why they deal so much for him but you lack that ability. If I'm wrong all the better.
So no druid... lunar oracle though? Nice thought.
There's always the spell Blood Money if the debate for material components can't find common ground between RAW and RAI.
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If it costs less than 1GP, it's available in all towns and most villages.If Eschew Materials works, that means the item costs less than 1gp. So either Bokrug's toenail clippings have been widely distributed across the lands and can be found in every component pouch, or sorcerers can't do it either.Since it doesn't cost more then 1 GP, Eschew Materials or False Focus works. Unless you have a price on it. Could you cite that page number please?
What you just said reminds me of how the "worth less than 1 gold" can get odd. Does that mean if the bat guano market suddenly boomed and raised it to 5 gold a dab a sorcerer would no longer be able cast fireball? Who knew innate magic cared so much about economics.
Another thing that kills the druid thing(aside from the Beast Shap limits)
At 4th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the beast shape I spell, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with.
Any stickler DM won't just let you polymorph into just any animal, it has to be something you have some familiarity with(as decided by the DM). Just because you have read about it in a rulebook doesn't mean that you character has any clue what it is. I would never let a player whose character has no knowledge of sea creatures polymorph into a dire shark.
This effectively limits your polymorph options based on your Knowledge(Nature) skill. As a general rule of thumb, if you can't make the knowledge check to identify it and you have never seen it in person, you can't polymorph into one.
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if the bat guano market suddenly boomed and raised it to 5 gold a dab a sorcerer would no longer be able cast fireball?
No, it just means you’d have to use less guano per casting.
“Master, good news! Diamond dust was on sale, I got it for only 500 gold pieces!”
“Well, go back and buy more...the spell calls for 1000 gold pieces worth.”
(Next time you don’t have enough diamond dust to cast Resurrection, try having one of your characters offer to buy the diamond dust the cleric bought for 25g for 10,000 gold. The magic of free market value to the rescue!)
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If Eschew Materials works, that means the item costs less than 1gp. So either Bokrug's toenail clippings have been widely distributed across the lands and can be found in every component pouch, or sorcerers can't do it either.Since it doesn't cost more then 1 GP, Eschew Materials or False Focus works. Unless you have a price on it. Could you cite that page number please?
Are we to assume that absolutely everything that doesn't have a listed price is absolutely free?
That is the base assumption of the rules concerning spell components regardless of how much sense it makes in all contexts, though it is not really free. Still gotta buy your component pouch and then you have an infinite amount.
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Are we to assume that absolutely everything that doesn't have a listed price is absolutely free?If Eschew Materials works, that means the item costs less than 1gp. So either Bokrug's toenail clippings have been widely distributed across the lands and can be found in every component pouch, or sorcerers can't do it either.Since it doesn't cost more then 1 GP, Eschew Materials or False Focus works. Unless you have a price on it. Could you cite that page number please?
No, but there is no GP cost listed in the spell's requirements.
Per the magic rules, "Material (M): A material component consists of one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process. Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. Don't bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch."
There isn't a GP cost associated with the spell, so it is negligible.
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I'd say the negligibility depends on the exact unpriced component. And a bit of Bokrug isn't exactly the same thing as a pinch of parsley.
Would you make the same ruling if it was a vial of Asmodeus's blood? A tooth plucked from Rovagug's jaw?
Do you really assume that all of those things come pre-packed in every spell component pouch sold on Golarion?
What I'm thinking of as a general rule is that you need to make a Knowledge Nature roll that's good enough to ask at least 3 questions for the beast whose shape you need to emulate. Appropriate DC modifiers to be added to creatures of environments you're not native to.Another thing that kills the druid thing(aside from the Beast Shap limits)
At 4th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the beast shape I spell, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with.
Any stickler DM won't just let you polymorph into just any animal, it has to be something you have some familiarity with(as decided by the DM). Just because you have read about it in a rulebook doesn't mean that you character has any clue what it is. I would never let a player whose character has no knowledge of sea creatures polymorph into a dire shark.
This effectively limits your polymorph options based on your Knowledge(Nature) skill. As a general rule of thumb, if you can't make the knowledge check to identify it and you have never seen it in person, you can't polymorph into one.
Either way, my point is that just because it is in a Bestiary somewhere does not mean the PC automatically knows about it. Even if there are bits of Bokrug in every spelcasting materials shop in Golaron does not mean that a player's character has any idea what that is or why it is useful.
Make a sanity check. Seriously, just seeing something form the Cthulhu mythos is enough to make normal people lose their minds, so turning into one?
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Is it me or has this thread just totally derailed?
We have people commenting on the likelihood of Merchant McComponentSeller having rows and rows of Great Old One materials on sale as if his distribution center accidentally overordered fragments of obscure beings of near deific alien nature that he has no choice but to "blow it all out so cheap... that he's practically GIVING it away!"
So others pipe in with their input as to how to overlook this situation and all we get is... "Nope. Won't happen. That spell might not exist. What about the implied cost of something even though it hasn't been written down somewhere?"
In a game where a person can be beaten literally within an inch of death and have literally no drawbacks to how well they function... why are we so focused on the "it's not written, but maybe...!" aspects of this concept, especially when the rules have already been written and even included content to overcome any uncertainties that a game might have?
I haven't seen a lot of threads that try to tackle the pontential penalties to the party rogue's acrobatics check due to the fact that he hasn't been drinking an appropriate amount of water and probably has muscle cramps that could impact his leap at the wrong time...
Make a Knowledge check to see if you can identify some lore about the creature and know what you're gonna change into. Not allowed by the DM? Great! Done and put to rest.
Buy material components as per rules as written. Not allowed by DM? Awesome! That settles that.
Use a spell like Blood Money or Wish to get ye olde monster's armpit hair and thus, channel the destructive power latent within the vessel of his musky apocallyptic presperation? Can't happen as per your DM and his reverence for the flagrant abuse of ones fetid sweat soakers? Perfect! This disturbing conversation need never be discussed again!
But why jump in with these obscure interpretations that don't fall under the rules and object without reason or a pathfinder-based rule to support it?
It just seems like trying to rock the boat and counter suggestions and facts with personal opinions...
Because someone new might read it and accidentally get the impression that it's actually a reasonable idea otherwise.
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Take a look at the Great Old One Bokrug. Notice he is a large magical beast, which covered by Beast Shape 4. Nothing seems to be stopping you from being less scary version of the thing itself, but is it actually a worthwhile shape? Here's what you'd get by my calculations:
-Bite (1d8)
-2 claws (1d6)
-sting (1d6) + poison 1r/6r, 2d4 wisdom
-tentacle beard (1d6) + grab + constrict (1d6?)
-Dark vision
-swim speed
-20 resist cold, fire, acid
-You are a great old one in spirit though not mechanicallySeems like an okay package, but obviously less awesome looking with the damage dice sizes defaulted back to normal. Assuming there isn't some a special rule somewhere that makes him an invalid target for Wild Shape/Beast Shape 4, would you actually consider using him for his mechanical benefits? The concept is cool, but I'm not sure myself.
Bokrug is a type (a class of creatures) or an individual?
Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor....
Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals.
AFAIK it is a specific individual and you can't assume its form.
Yeah, Bokrug is a specie individual, so not a valid form for polymorphing.
Lots of comments in this thread say wild shape caps at beast shape iv, but it doesn't. The caps are:
8th - beast shape III
12th - plant shape III, and elemental body IV
Yhey were saying for the purpose if the beastshape spells. Since those are the only line of spells that would apply they felt no.need to spell it out.
Because someone new might read it and accidentally get the impression that it's actually a reasonable idea otherwise.
Rules debates aside, Bokrug's shape as per Beast Shape 4 isn't really something to be feared above and beyond what is already possible with other shapes. It just has style points. All the style points.
When things are unclear, like now, the question of "how does it compare to the less stylish options" is my guiding principle when considering whether or not it is really reasonable, but again that is hardly RAW or RAI. With that criteria I don't really see an issue here.
I meant the "pieces of a god are free" thing.
I meant the "pieces of a god are free" thing.
With that part taken out, like with a supernatural ability to mimic Beast Shape 4 from the Dark Tapestry or Lunar mystery, how reasonable would you consider it? I can see the argument for Bokrug being an individual, but at the same time I could see it as you are just assuming his species; who knows just how unique the great old ones really are... maybe there's a whole race of Cthulu-esque (or Bokrug-esque) creatures in the infinite void between worlds. Maybe the Great Old Ones are just rejects who couldn't make it in their society so they play god somewhere else. Not a RAW argument to be sure, but an interesting thought I think.
I believe Cthulhu is his race's high priest for the Outer Gods lorewise, so I doubt the outcast bit applies. He could very well be a frail old cleric by his race's standards, though.
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You know as a gm I would let you do it. Not saying you wouldn't regret it. But I would let you do it. Then let the party watch in horror as you went mad from becoming an eldritch abomination and slaughtered the party as the essence of what you shifted into consumed your mind and soul.
I'd allow it, personally. Just expect to go completely mad due to Great Old Ones being god-like beings, and it's vast and unknowable mind decided to play bazooka tag with yours. Besides...
Becoming unnatural horrors is what the Aberration Wild Shape feat from 3.5 Lords of Madness is for. Though with this feat you'd only take a major hit to your San score, rather than have it totally shattered.
But hey... At least you look bad ass.
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Me being GM -
You Beast Form IV into the shape of the Great Old One Bokrug's race. Congrats, you are a single slimy grub the size of someone's thumb. Now, grow for 100 million years and you can be Bokrug. Try not to get stepped on for the first 1 million years.
(ps. read some of the mythos already folks)
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Me being GM -
You Beast Form IV into the shape of the Great Old One's race. Congrats, you are a single slimy grub the size of someone's thumb. Now, grow for 100 million years and you can be Bokrug. Try not to get stepped on for the first 1 million years.
Sweet so your players get to use templates like Young on their shape shifting? That's quite handy.
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The amount of GMs here who are incredibly anti-player and antagonistic in their responses disgusts me. Just because someone thinks they came up with something cool, that isn't even mechanically superior to other options, you want to ruin their fun, is laughable. If I create an illusion of myself shifting into Cthulhu, would you say that he entered my mind and drove me insane? So anti-player, it's insane.