Armor class vs. monsters to hit.

[Gaberlunzie]

Claxon wrote:

But seriously, you admitted your using APL-1 creatures, and they get slaughtered. That's exactly what is supposed to happen. Your complaining that your monster aren't challenging enough, but your using creatures below APL.

No, that's not what supposed to happen. Four CR 9 monsters is a CR 13 encounter, and for a 10th level party that's supposed to be an "epic" encounter.

A SINGLE CR9 creature is supposed to be an "easy" encounter.

Granted, a highly optimized party with more wealth than usual will probably be more accurately described as somewhere between APL+1 and APL+3.

But in general, throwing four CR 9 monsters on a 10th level party isn't supposed to be a "slaughter", it's supposed to be an epic encounter.

[demontroll]

I have the same experience (PCs having high AC so monsters can only hit them on a '20'). This starts at level 1 and the monsters never seem to catch up. The game isn't balanced when facing optimized characters.

The easy solution is to give all of your monsters a bonus to hit so they are hitting the highest AC in the group about 20% of the time with their best attack. You can just claim the monsters are 'elite', or give monsters 'bad guy' amulets that give them a huge magical bonus to hit. Anyone who wears a 'bad guy' amulet becomes dominated by the main 'bad guy' in the adventure.

If monsters only ever hit on a '20' the game isn't challenging and isn't fun for the GM.

[Jurkal]

my dwarf fighter has 40 ac at level 14 and rune giants have a hard time hitting me they have to roll a 15 or better if advanced and without power attacking, since i have 44 ac against giants. but in general most things still have to roll like 15 or better to hit me so i say AC is nice.

[Gaberlunzie]

demontroll wrote:

The easy solution is to give all of your monsters a bonus to hit so they are hitting the highest AC in the group about 20% of the time with their best attack.

So, if I've got AC 30, you'll buff all attacks to at least +14. If the rest of the party has AC 20, they'll be hit 75% of the time. Now, if I get myself a nice ring that gives +3 AC, you'll buff all enemy attacks to +17, and the rest of the party is hit 90% of the time.

In other words, in your games, the party only loses by increasing their AC, especially if one player increases it past others.

To me, that sounds like a really really bad idea. On the occacional once in a blue moon boss I could see it but no... That sounds bad.

[kyrt-ryder]

I've run into that scenario as well. GMs who feel that if their creatures aren't hitting the specialist frequently enough they aren't sufficiently challenging the party.

It's... rather depressing to be on the receiving end of that GM behavior, whether you're the specialist being hit more frequently than you built for or the non-specialist getting hit all the time.

[Mayhem Havocrain]

demontroll wrote:

The easy solution is to give all of your monsters a bonus to hit so they are hitting the highest AC in the group about 20% of the time with their best attack.

Gods I hope that's not the answer. My ac is no where near as high as the tanks and neither are my HP. So now, if I don't want to die, I have to make my character like the tanks and get high ac. But I'm a Sorceror and really never wanted to waste spells known on ac boosters and temporary HP buffs because I didn't plan on tanking. *sigh* can I just reroll as a fighter or barbarian or something?

demontroll wrote:

If monsters only ever hit on a '20' the game isn't challenging and isn't fun for the GM.

Sure the game is challenging. Obviously, the gm is challenged to find another way to threaten the party.

But hey, not all GM's like the same things. You like hitting regular ac with regular attacks. When that isn't an option it seems like you have less fun.

I and other GM's, however, like using spells, touch attacks, traps contact/ingested/inhaled poisons, aoe's, splash damage, high ground, flanking, combat maneuvers, status effects, saving throws, terrain, surprise rounds, nighttime/camp encounters, water encounters, heat encounters, support casters/bards on the enemy teams, supportive aoe's (unhallow) in enemy zones, battlefield control spells, swarms, lots of monsters with lots of attacks (eventually they start rolling 20's), and other options as well.

Sounds to me like you missed the boat bud. How about you pull down them trousers, hop in the water and swim on over to my ship? The party is over here (decks 3 and above) and everybody is having a good time.

PS. Yeah, you will probably be the only one on deck who is pants-less besides me. What? How did I lose my pants? That's a long story that started below deck. I'll have to tell you about it sometime. Fair warning: stay above deck 3.

[Propsken]

It's been said before, but monsters/enemies do more than just swipe at a target, especially at higher levels. Encounter design is key here. Look at how the previous encounters went, check to see why it was too easy, and try to fix it next time.
Only one guy that got locked down? Send in more guys.
A guy got locked down by the Magus? Target someone else.
The Magus' AC is too high? Find a lower defense to attack.
In short: find problems, analyze them, and come up with solutions.
While this won't always be feasable with random encounters, any encounter arranged by the BBEG could easily be tailored to suit his needs - the BBEG's needs here being "kill those pesky adventurers". If he sends two warriors and they don't return, he'll know not to send two more warriors next time. Have him observe the party, take notes of their capacities and tactics - but mostly, their weak points - and adjust accordingly. The party isn't the only intelligent, tactically thinking, problem-solving entity in the game/world.

For example: start off an encounter from hiding, with the enemies readying certain actions, spread around the battlefield, pre-buffed. Have an enemy arcane caster throw a Silence spell around the PC casters to slow them down; follow it up with pre-cast Invisibility melee critters getting into their threat range. Put up a wall of some kind - iron, stone, fire, ice, what-have-you - to seperate the Magus. Get some touch attacks or CMD attacks on him; a ray-caster or a gunner do well. Meanwhile, try to tag the Rogue with what will supposedly be his weaker save: Fort. Poison is your friend here. Don't forget to throw in any and all buffs you can muster.
This setup would require about five CR 8 critters (1 ray caster or gunner, 1 buff/support caster, 2 melee, 1 poison) to provide a CR 13 challenge, and would drastically change the outcome with only a single surprise-round's worth of actions.

EDIT: come to think of it, why target a lower defense, when you can ignore it entirily? Swarms, for instance, do auto-damage, AND distract spellcasters. A two-fer!