Working on another of the locations within my gaming world to be.
The long term social experiment nation.
A forward thinking analyst (FTA) NPC has set up a nation to improve the populous. He has looked at the failures of the various nations, societies, and regimes and attempted to analyze them and the mistakes they have made. Has decided the biggest mistake was that these groups tried to decide what the ‘goal’ before they started. So the best they could really try for is ‘more of what we think is already good’. There is no way to come up with something better than whatever has already been seen if you set the goal as something you already know. Therefore he is trying to set things up for just general betterment.
(The idea has been percolating in my mind for a long time as part of a campaign setting. Some of the specifics though have been inspired by the Cetegandans in the Vor Saga by Lois McMaster Bujold.)
- He doesn’t really care about any silly concepts such as right-wrong, good-bad, order-freedom, justice-irresponsibility, etc… Such concepts are only truly valuable if they promote a stronger society and/or individual.
- Since he hasn’t determined what will eventually become the ‘best’ race, he will include many in his experimental nation.
- Complete lack of some resource or necessity for survival warps a society into doing whatever it needs to gain that thing. But, having everything needed makes a group complacent.
- Obviously can’t learn anything from a nation that gets wiped out. So it must be protected from eradication. But if there is no danger, there is no impetus to improve. So it can’t be protected too much. Risks have to remain.
- Undead are practically the definition of ‘lack of improvement.’ They are the poster children of everything remains the same. So undead will not be tolerated.
- Improvement of any kind needs to be rewarded and encouraged in some tangible fashion to accelerate the process.
- A regime that appears to be stultifying the populous or inhibiting progress will be quietly undermined and made less stable.
- Religion is sometimes necessary for the emotional wellbeing and solace of the populous. Plus many of those gods get petulant if ignored. But if any one religion gets the upper hand amongst a people they immediately put a clamp down on any change. So religion will be allowed, but none allowed to become too strong.
- FTA is probably a wizard from some long lived race like elf. This seems like a diviner or universalist mindset. But not sure. Will have a hidden fortress/lair from which he monitors and adjusts as necessary. He will spend large amounts of time in some sort of suspended animation or hibernation out of the normal flow of time so he can keep watch over his creation.
- Will have a small hidden cabal that are his agents. Gathering information for him and occasionally taking actions for him.
Ideas, suggestions, reactions?
But while you are waiting, why not play a game of Pathfinder Adventure Card Game? It is quite enjoyable and is a great way to pass the time while you wait for your thread to be moved by an admin. Who knows, maybe you will find inspiration for your world.
Regardless, good luck with what you are creating. Its way more than what my mind can come up with.
oops. Not sure how I put it here. I didn't even know this existed.
Would a moderator please move this to:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/houseRules
But while you are waiting, why not play a game of Pathfinder Adventure Card Game? ...
Thanks for the offer, but I was never really able to get into the card games. When my kids were younger I did MtG just to be doing something with them. But once they stopped I went back to the RPG's.
Looks like you thread got moved. Good luck on creating your world.
You've given this setup a lot of thought! The criteria you've established seem like they might plausibly produce a "successful" society -- but the social experiment you propose is quite different from the one established in Hermea. Interestingly, instead of guiding the experiment explicitly, your Analyst intends to engineer their (must it be a he?) nation from the shadows, so its citizens are unwitting participants.
It's quite an intriguing premise for a location, and could turn into a fascinating adventure: one in which adventurers, questing in what they think is an ordinary nation, discover a series of unexplained goings-on. Maybe a mysterious disappearance here, a sudden magically-induced change of heart there -- events that might seem disconnected at first, but as they gradually pull back the curtain, it becomes clear that these meddlings are all part of a plan, oiling the gears of a vast machine. (Have you seen The Adjustment Bureau?)
Two major concerns:
First, the purpose of the experiment must be more clearly defined. You've made it clear that morality is irrelevant to the project, but what do you mean by "improving" the people? Is the eventual goal of the experiment to create a nation strong enough to conquer all others? A society that maximizes the welfare and happiness of its citizens? A society that eventually produces an evolutionarily superior humanoid? The desired outcome will help determine how its progress is guided, so I think you should further clarify these goals.
Second, and more importantly: this Analyst must be very powerful and influential indeed, to implement and manage a plan on such a grand scale. Especially when it comes to manipulating the hearts and minds of an entire nation -- an exceedingly difficult task under any circumstances. Even if you assume that the Analyst's agents are completely loyal, how do they undermine a problematic regime without being detected, or prevent invaders from ruining the experiment completely?
I'm attempting to answer similar questions while planning out my own homebrew nation, using a veiled master as a mastermind: their cunning and suite of powerful psychic abilities make them particularly well-suited for subtle, patient manipulations.
For a project of this scale, however, you might consider an even greater power: an elohim. Immensely powerful, alien world-builders who create entire demiplanes and seed them with life as grand experiments. Perhaps one particularly philosophically-inclined elohim, seeking to understand what determines the success or failure of a society or species, actually created the entire experiment-nation (and possibly its surroundings as well) from scratch.
Just offering some thoughts and possibilities -- hope you find them helpful!
Thanks for the compliment.
No it doesn't have to be a 'he.'
I have not yet seen 'The Adjustment Bureau.'
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... First, the purpose of the experiment must be more clearly defined. You've made it clear that morality is irrelevant to the project, but what do you mean by "improving" the people? Is the eventual goal of the experiment to create a nation strong enough to conquer all others? A society that maximizes the welfare and happiness of its citizens? A society that eventually produces an evolutionarily superior humanoid? The desired outcome will help determine how its progress is guided, so I think you should further clarify these goals. ...
Years back when I first started thinking on this concept. It was always a human wizard starting with a goblin (due to short generation cycle) society and trying to make them into good AND advanced creatures. But one of the things I always ran into was, wouldn't he end up just breeding them into short humans? His ideal would be human versatility and appearance. So that's what he would select for in his experiments. So what would be the point except a flawed confirmation of his own bias.
Then I read the Vor Saga. The Cetegandans have turned their empire into a pressure cooker to quickly accelerate the evolution of the human race. But they have no idea what the end goal is. Could a cave man imagine what a human would be like? Of course not. Similarly the ruling Cetegandans (known as the Haut) do no know what they will become. But they are determined to get their faster than the rest of the human race.
Similarly the Analyst doesn't have a specific goal. Just better. If the people become more aggressive, ruthless, and acquisitive and are successful at it while not tearing their society to pieces; that would be an improvement. If they become the greatest sculptures in the world while still having a society that isn't stagnant or idle, that would also be an improvement. If the people become incredibly resistant to disease, that too would be an improvement.
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... For a project of this scale, however, you might consider an even greater power: an elohim. ...
That has definite possibilities. (The Veiled Masters are too evil for this.)
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... Even if you assume that the Analyst's agents are completely loyal, how do they undermine a problematic regime without being detected, or prevent invaders from ruining the experiment completely? ...
For the agents, I'm planning to model on the Illuminae from the 3.5 book Races of Destiny.
I was thinking that agents do not even know for sure who or what they are working for. (Some of the higher ups would have various suspicions.) But if I keep it too secretive, the PC's are not libel to ever figure it out.
So I figure the agents will know what is going on. They will also rarely take direct action themselves. They will generally use even more unconnected 3rd party agents. they would just find someone else and hire them to accomplish X and pay them off for it. Perfect way to introduce the PC's to the area and give them access to eventually find out what is going on.
I think my biggest problem is figuring out how to have the Analyst reward and encourage improvement while remaining unknown in the shadows.
I agree with aetherwisp, an elohim would make perfect sense for this scenario.
He doesn’t really care about any silly concepts such as right-wrong, good-bad, order-freedom, justice-irresponsibility, etc… Such concepts are only truly valuable if they promote a stronger society and/or individual.
To be honest, it should matter. In the first place, societies can't exist without some sort of order keeping them together. However, to prevent stagnation, they have to allow enough freedom for creativity. Societies with too much crime can't advance because there is a need for cooperation that comes with trusting others. Finally, societies that are too virtuous can stagnate in a different way. However, if it is a matter of the society and those in it being "stronger" then alignments of any sort will do.
Since he hasn’t determined what will eventually become the ‘best’ race, he will include many in his experimental nation.
These races should be competitive, but they also should be able to interbreed. This way eventually there would be one race left - either the "best" of the original or the hybrid descendants of the mix.
Complete lack of some resource or necessity for survival warps a society into doing whatever it needs to gain that thing. But, having everything needed makes a group complacent. He picked a location with some of all the major resources and livable conditions. So there is iron, copper, etc… to be mined. Forests and wilds to harvest. Reasonable climate so crops can grow. But it’s not got huge amounts of any resources and it is not the most fecund location to become the breadbasket of the region. If they want more, they will have to compete with the rest of the world to get it.
Obviously can’t learn anything from a nation that gets wiped out. So it must be protected from eradication. But if there is no danger, there is no impetus to improve. So it can’t be protected too much. Risks have to remain. Chose a location and modified it as necessary so it is somewhat protected from other nations (mountains, swamps, rivers, whatever) but not completely inaccessible. Well let them get hammered in a war with another nation or even a civil war, but will step in and take measures if it looks like things are heading too far toward getting wiped out.
A demiplane created by an elohim could be perfect for both of these. It would have the necessary resources to sustain itself for a while, but wanting or needing more will require going out. Similarly, it's not going to be super easy getting in to the demiplane, but it's hardly impossible. At worst it's probably like finding the right track into a fairly secluded valley.
Undead are practically the definition of ‘lack of improvement.’ They are the poster children of everything remains the same. So undead will not be tolerated. {Not sure about golems, but I think he should disapprove of those also.}
The thing about golems is they are essentially machines that work for someone. As long as the society doesn't stagnate, they shouldn't cause too much of a problem. Once people use them more than their own innovations, though...
Improvement of any kind needs to be rewarded and encouraged in some tangible fashion to accelerate the process. I’m currently thinking taxes. Anyone that shows he is the best at something (no matter how minor a something) in his local city doesn’t pay taxes for a year, 1/3 taxes for a year, then 2/3 taxes for a year. If best in nation, no taxes for 5 years. – This was my initial thought, but I can’t see how he could enforce it since he is trying to ‘stay hands off’ of the government to let it grow. So if you have a better idea how he could encourage things, I’m listening. Well reading.
A regime that appears to be stultifying the populous or inhibiting progress will be quietly undermined and made less stable. Won’t come in to blast them down, but will have agents cause mischief for the problematic authorities and give encouragement to those trying to bring about change.
Religion is sometimes necessary for the emotional wellbeing and solace of the populous. Plus many of those gods get petulant if ignored. But if any one religion gets the upper hand amongst a people they immediately put a clamp down on any change. So religion will be allowed, but none allowed to become too strong. The same agents would work to bring down any one religion that seems to be getting to powerful.
If it's an elohim that checks in from time to time, perhaps a more general reward could be creating another adjacent demiplane for more resources or similar. I think if there's going to be this more social stuff, though, an order of clerics would make the most sense. Perhaps they worship the elohim? They could easily form a 'secret society' dedicated to exactly what you mentioned above. The elohim itself could judge them on whether they're doing a good job or not - which could come with its own consequences.
... I think if there's going to be this more social stuff, though, an order of clerics would make the most sense. Perhaps they worship the elohim? They could easily form a 'secret society' dedicated to exactly what you mentioned above. The elohim itself could judge them on whether they're doing a good job or not - which could come with its own consequences.
Oh hey. I really like this idea. This just got snagged. Thanks muchly!