PvP and the newcomers

[Caldeathe Baequiannia]

I'm not asking for opinions, or a discussion, though as always, everyone has a right to talk if they feel they need to.

I happen to think that I represent a significant minority of people coming to PFOnline. I'm here because Pathfinder, and Golarion, are cool. I've never played an online game before, had no idea what PvP meant the first couple of times I saw it, and had never heard of the whole griefing issue. I'm nervous now, very nervous, but willing to play out my upfront investment in hopes it will be something else cool (and be sad if it doesn't, because I've committed a year up front).

I don't need anyone convincing me that their side is the right side. Either I'll have fun, and keep paying, or I won't.

It behooves both sides of the issue to make the game interesting, and find ways to draw me in to your play style, without shouting at each other in front of me. Otherwise I'll start to feel like a kid who's about to have to choose between divorcing parents, and worrying that neither one will be there and I'll end up in the orphanage. And, yes, I am talking to you.

I do appreciate the many discussions of how to reduce griefing, especially when they remain civil.

Thanks for reading, Caldeathe.

[<Magistry> Athansor]

I don't really think you're a minority on these boards in particular. There are a lot of people that are invested in PFO for it's RP value and relationship with the tabletop game. I've heard all kinds of varying opinions on what the appropriate amount of PVP in the game is.

I feel as though the majority of players I talk to are hoping PVP isn't as prominent in-game as it's made out to be on the forums. Most of them are in it for interactive/community PvE.

It's really going to be on the community to see how the game turns out. This is partially from crowd-forging development and partially reliant on the areas we create in the game.

I think in an ideal world kingdoms will be forged and there will be areas with less banditry and certainly less war. But there will also be "the frontier" or "the front line" where there is constant PVP activity for those inclined. These lines will be ever changing most likely, but hopefully there will be access for everyone to play the game the way they like.

As an aside I'm pro-PVP but also prefer voluntary PVP and am certainly anti-griefing. One of my favorite games was ultima online. The majority of people wanted to play it for PvE purposes, which made being an anti-PK extremely gratifying. Anti-PK groups were constantly teleporting all over the world to protect those that didn't want to take part in PVP themselves, and it made for some intense nights of combat. I see this game as an opportunity to experience that kind of PVP again, just on a larger scale.

[Bluddwolf]

Instead, let me try to describe to you what PvE is like. Although I can't compare my experience in Pathfinder RPG terms, I'll actually reference AD&D terms.

When you first enter an MMO and decide to focus in just the PvE content, this is how I see it:

You are level 1 and you are sent out by a quest giver to kill 5 kobolds, and then return for your reward.

You go out and find a small group of kobolds, you kill five and then return. The task was fairly easy. The quest giver than gives you the next step, to kill 10 kobolds and 3 Lieutenants.

You go out and you kill the 10 kobolds, but you only kill one lieutenant, before getting killed yourself. You go back to town and get a better dagger. You go back and kill another 3 kobolds, and you level up! Now the 3 lieutenants are easier and you kill them all. You return to the quest giver, and get your reward.

Your next quest is to kill the Kobold chief. The quest recommends that you are at least 3rd level, so you either get a small group or you grind killing a few more normal kobolds / lieutenants to hit level 3.

You eventually complete the quest of killing the Kobold chief, and you return to get your reward. You also gain enough experience to reach level 4. You go to a different quest giver and he tells you...... "Go out and kill 5 goblins"...

Because you remember that middle mission where you died, you decide.... Let me kill a few more kobolds until I hit level 5.

Now you start this mission series one level higher, and you breeze through it, with little or no challenge. Next up.... Orcs......

In an MMO where there is Open World PvP, there is no predicability; there is no leveling up to one higher; there may not even be, I beat him before I can beat him again. In PvP your opponent is not predictable or static. He won't always be in the same place, any time you want to find him.

[T7V Jazzlvraz]

But Bluddwolf, on the other hand, in a PVE environment there's often some way that, if you have only 20 minutes or so to play, you can find something to do that'll let you feel as if you accomplished a little bit. Here, the only short-term thing I can see is earning XP itself, which will occur regardless of whether you play even those 20 minutes.

I'm worried about the utility of PFO as a tool for relaxation. We're all pretty-well agreed letting one's guard down is a route to a chat with Pharasma, so PFO at the end of a long day's work may be contraindicated.

[Crash_00]

Well, there are ways to do PvE better than that.

For example, instead of the standard kill five kobolds and return, the questgiver could give a quest to go help take care of the nearby monsters in hex X. Initially, the quest says to go kill 5 kobolds. After you kill those kobolds, the quest updates itself to kill three lieutenants. You wage through those and it updates itself to kill the chief/boss.

You return once to town to hand it back in, having taken care of the menace. Self-updating quests kills part of the repetitiveness by hacking out the irritating travel time. Traditional MMOs like WoW need that travel time as a time-sink, since that's what you're paying for. You're looking at your $15 per month, dividing by the hours you play, and deciding if it's worth it.

PfO, you're paying for XP. Time isn't what you're paying for, so there isn't as much of a need for time-sink. Either the XP/month is worth it or it isn't.

Similarly, we have the tech available these days for more randomness in monster spawning and, for that matter, quest spawning.

There are also ways to make PvE closer to PvP. Instead of having monsters as static creatures, they could scale with your abilities. A character with Sword 1 may attack a kobold as though it were Defense 1, meanwhile a character with Sword 3 could attack it as though it were Defense 3. With the right coding you could even put this out to where both characters fight the same monster as though it was both their level respectively.

I'll admit, most PvE scenarios are rather boring compared to PvP scenarios. That said, well done PvE encounters are usually equal to or better.

The problem is that most games follow the standard cookie cutter mold that has made WoW a success, and it isn't well done PvE. It was decent at it's time, but now it's showing it's age.

[Nihimon]

Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:

And, yes, I am talking to you.

The only thing I would ask is that you take a moment to understand me as what I am rather than as others paint me.

I am a deeply flawed human being. These are the first forums I've ever been active on. I've made lots of mistakes, been unnecessarily argumentative with some, had my moments of being snide and condescending. But I'm learning.

I am profoundly motivated to be welcoming and to try to be helpful by providing useful information. I am similarly grateful that new posters coming here to ask questions are more likely to be met with kindness and relevant links than with "learn to use search newb".

My fatal flaw is that I feel a responsibility to correct misinformation and to chastise rudeness. I'm still learning where to draw the line and how to avoid getting sucked into meaningless debates that can't be won.

My apologies to those of you who deserve them, especially the folks at Paizo.

Signed,
An avid fan with too much free time and some significant personality flaws, one of which is undoubtedly a touch of narcissism.

[Aet Kard Warstein]

Personally, since I enjoyed playing Themeparks on PvP servers, I would go kill the kobolds, kill the other players also killing kobolds, then turn in the quest and repeat.

If amongst the other players is someone better at PvP then me, I die. I now know this individual is a challenge, consider him an "Elite Mob" and spend the next 20 minutes hunting him down to get revenge, after all just grinding quests is boring as hell, so it's good to spice things up.

Sandbox games are even better for PvP, of course, as they tend to have players out and about doing all sorts of things besides just the monotonous farming of mobs. Ever happen upon a wedding and see someone in there that killed you three days ago? That's a great time to seek revenge. The entire wedding party then get's to RP hunting you down and bringing you to justice, which is great!

[Shane Gifford of Fidelis]

T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:

...contraindicated.

Nice word! :)

[Aet Kard Warstein]

It's part of the Warstein Ale Drunken Dictionary

[Pucktheplatypus]

I think our forums so far are among the least toxic and most informative i have ever read so far. And frankly the spell to summon an instant personable information junkie is quite handy. So I also hope the game has enough content to keep avid Rpers happy and rabid pvp junkies

[Aet Kard Warstein]

Personally, I think the best PvP is one laced with heavy RP. It's more satisfying when you have reasons to do what you do, and the Contract system looks to be a great bridge for RP and PvP in this game. Having contracts to Bounty Hunt or Assassinate someone, having specific targets your going after, will make skirmish PvP incredibly fun IMO. It also allows for folks who do nothing but pacifist type activities all day to still have a very effective way to get someone dead should they desire to do so. After all, if you can't wield a blade on your own, there's always a Contract to be made to hire a blade on your behalf.

Get those killers working for you, and experience the joys an open PvP world allows.

[First0f0ne]

Be careful jumping in to PFO so early on in EE. From what you posted it may be a good idea to wait 5-6 months at least until settlements are in so that there are more things to do in game. It seems there will only be a few activites in the first few months of EE.

Kill a few basic escalations(PvE)

Harvest resources for crafting

Craft Items

PvP (defending oneself or others, taking from those weaker than you or your group, Murderhoboing*)

I personally am super pumped for EE but I'm attempting to temper my excitement and not jump in 3 hours a day to avoid burnout.

* Murderhoboing is a new verb I'd like to see enter the PFO Lexicon. Example: "Why did Jack get banned?" "Oh, He and Jim went Murderhoboing for 3 days in a row"

[BrotherZael]

First off: There might be "quests" in terms of PvE, but they won't be the prominent feature. There will be the inclusion of "go kill 5 orcs" quests whenever an Escalation Cycle kicks up, but that isn't the point. The point here is you are going out and harvesting, or finding ECs to fight, or finding miners to protect, or filling a role at the embassy, or whatever. It is primarily action, not primarily reaction. Just wanted to point that out.

Secondly, people need not worry about griefing so much for the moment. We have a strong idea who is going to be in at early, and possibly even mid, EE. And let us face it, it is us. Quasi-geeks in for some open-world world-building grand-strategy/heavy-rpg MMO Pathfinder action. Ain't no griefer going to ship out +100$ to grief a (relatively) small populated game that is stating it isn't complete, that more than a few are claiming will crash and burn. And the few that do are going to be shut down. Hard.

So please, you can relax about the griefing for now.

And as for open-world PvP, well same as griefers really. Look at who is in right now. Couple of bandits who stated they go after the richest targets only and will respect coin paid for "protection" and alliances made, a ton of groups dedicated to protecting land, people, ideals, etc., a few neutrals, our resident organized crime syndicate (Golgotha), and then a few shady bakery shops, a tower of doom or two, etc. PvP is entirely regulated. You might find the lone group or two who are preying where they shouldn't but people like Bluddwolf or TEO are likely to shut em down quick. Heck, anyone probably would: a group of unknowns causing trouble on the border between you and mr. equally powerful equally looking to secure more land is risky bizniz to say the least.

So in short, just make sure to keep to the meta-rules Goblin works provides, stick close to the "good guys" if you are unsure of the situation, and keep a level head and it won't be a problem.

Edit: Not saying ignore griefing, just wanting to let the "new guys" know it is not as big as those more "experienced" can make it seem, we will handle it hopefully well before it does become that sort of problem.

[<Magistry> Toombstone]

While some seem to predict that there may be a lot of PvP in early EE due to not having much else to do, I'm not so sure. Low-level pvp has never been very valuable and I'm not especially interested in it, and I doubt I'm alone. I feel like exploring the map, PvE, gathering to whatever extent it's allowed, getting whatever achievements are in the game, those things will be more productive. Especially if there are rep/alignment consequences in relatively soon, gaining useless PvP experience isn't worth those costs.

[TEO Urman]

T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:

I'm worried about the utility of PFO as a tool for relaxation. We're all pretty-well agreed letting one's guard down is a route to a chat with Pharasma, so PFO at the end of a long day's work may be contraindicated.

It depends on one's focus and definition of relaxing.

If your character is a crafter, for example, you log on, get supplies from your contacts, and spend a half hour or hour setting up the crafting queue you were thinking about since lunch in your cubicle.

If you've got gathering skills, you log on, check where your settlement is gathering this afternoon or evening and run out to smash nodes for the next 45 minutes. Same thing if you're a PvE specialist - the nodes might just look like goblins and drop resources and coin.