Hmm. Now it occurs to me that having large swathes of heated surface area may not be a good thing. Or to put it less dramatically - it might create a new set of problems. Oh well. ;)
Gaberlunzie: There is a significant difference between roads and streets. Don't forget that they wanted this on every such surface.
So, yes, we're discussing snowplows and considering the possibility this tech can't do the job as currently designed. But, then, if you look at their website, even the makers admit it might not be able to do the job for states with heavy snowfall. So, no, I don't think this tech will do the job as it currently exists.
I think part of this is understanding what the current system is, how much it costs and whether or not this new system can modify that and make it cheaper.
If the heated solar panels improve efficiency on snow removal, that's a benefit that can be considered to that offsets their cost, which helps defray their more expensive cost than standard pavement options.
They don't have to replace plows in the worst places, they just have to provide a measurable impact on efficiency that results in savings (either directly in snow removal budgets, or indirectly through lower emergency services costs and improved economic efficiency). They don't have to be perfect and operate completely on their own, they just need to provide enough of a benefit.
Something else to consider, if the heating element is cheap enough to be included in areas with rarer snowfalls, such as Georgia, then you could completely avoid the problems they had during one storm this winter where thousands of people were stranded on the freeway overnight.
If plowing the roads costs a few million dollars a year for a certain rather large region where they have snow problems... then heating the entire massive road surface is not going to be any kind of savings. Just saying.
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Well, it costs $9 million for a medium sized city that covers 53 square miles, with 3200 lane miles.
It costs $2,800 per lane mile to clear snow per year. The thing is, a lot of the cost involved is in readiness. They have to pay the drivers, buy trucks, maintain them, regardless of whether they're used or not. In addition, it takes 2-3 days to clear the snow spending that much money, during which time accidents happen, local businesses experience a lower number of customers, more car accidents happen, productivity is lost, etc.
If you could improve efficiency by spending money differently in another budget, that would be a good thing. It doesn't have to do the entire job on it's own, it just needs to make our current spending more efficient, or able to reduce it.
I don't know if it WOULD do that. I'm glad that this project got funded AND that my state is going to try and do some research to see if it works. The first real test is to see if it's safe and how well it lasts. That's going to take years though. Even if this project goes well and sees few bumps/hiccups, I'd be the earliest we see a live road with these is still 5-10 years away... and there are a LOT of ifs.
Agreed.
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Has anyone tested the damage these panels will suffer when someone runs a snow plow over the top of them? Because this IS going to happen every winter in snowy regions.
So, yes, we're discussing snowplows and considering the possibility this tech can't do the job as currently designed. But, then, if you look at their website, even the makers admit it might not be able to do the job for states with heavy snowfall. So, no, I don't think this tech will do the job as it currently exists.I think part of this is understanding what the current system is, how much it costs and whether or not this new system can modify that and make it cheaper.
If the heated solar panels improve efficiency on snow removal, that's a benefit that can be considered to that offsets their cost, which helps defray their more expensive cost than standard pavement options.
They don't have to replace plows in the worst places, they just have to provide a measurable impact on efficiency that results in savings (either directly in snow removal budgets, or indirectly through lower emergency services costs and improved economic efficiency). They don't have to be perfect and operate completely on their own, they just need to provide enough of a benefit.
Something else to consider, if the heating element is cheap enough to be included in areas with rarer snowfalls, such as Georgia, then you could completely avoid the problems they had during one storm this winter where thousands of people were stranded on the freeway overnight.
I know ^^ I acknowledged that to Tels in my reply to him earlier ;)
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Has anyone tested the damage these panels will suffer when someone runs a snow plow over the top of them? Because this IS going to happen every winter in snowy regions.
Not to my knowledge, but that can just be written off by saying these are just prototypes.
Has anyone tested the damage these panels will suffer when someone runs a snow plow over the top of them? Because this IS going to happen every winter in snowy regions.
Not to my knowledge, but that can just be written off by saying these are just prototypes.
Funny that you should mention things that can just be written off...
Anyway, as for the snow plows. It's a bad combo as they might scrape against the plates, which they also mention on their pages.
Another option, though, is to clear snow with snow blowers (with brushes) or street sweepers, both of which won't damage the panels. This should be easier since the bottom layer would be liquid because of the heating panels. In most places the actual layer of snow would also be smaller than normal since the first part wouldn't have been able to accumulate due to the heating elements.
Technically snow plows could be used, you'd just have to have the blades raised so you'd leave a certain amount of snow. This could then be removed by a street sweeper driving behind it.
Now, someone is then bound to say that, hey, that means you have to use two vehicles instead of just one!
Yes, you do. But you'd only use it in instances of very heavy snow fall. At other times you're saving money by not having to remove snow at all and you save on the cost of salt and salt spreaders. Plus less accidents due to dry roads. It all has to be factored into the cost.
Or you could just go with the snow plows right off the bat, keep the blades a bit up to not scrape the panels, and let the panels melt the remainder. That would do the same thing. And with the heating element active, the snow should be easier for a plow to move.
Saves on the money for an extra vehicle and still limits it to heavy snowfalls ;)
They've updated their FAQ with the following information:
Now that our Indiegogo campaign has been successful, we'll be able to move into production pretty fast. Our hometown of Sandpoint, Idaho has the first public projects already lined up for us:
The parking lot of a welcome center
City sidewalks
The Amtrak train station passenger platform
The tarmac at the Sandpoint Airport
The parking lot of our local animal shelterIf all goes well, we should be able to start installing at these locations next spring. At that point, we'll have the first public installations for everyone to see and experience.
I wonder if they have their own Sandpoint Devil too... :-p
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Or you could just go with the snow plows right off the bat, keep the blades a bit up to not scrape the panels, and let the panels melt the remainder. That would do the same thing. And with the heating element active, the snow should be easier for a plow to move.
Saves on the money for an extra vehicle and still limits it to heavy snowfalls ;)
Certainly true. I was just taking it to the point if they wanted to clear the roads completely right away.
perhaps these panels are a better solution for "where do we put solar panels" (my driveway, playground, walkway) than how do we get snow off the road.
And putting the solar panels everywhere except the roads would be even better.
And putting the solar panels everywhere except the roads would be even better.
Don't forget retractable parachutes. There should be retractable parachutes.
And spy cams.
Has anyone tested the damage these panels will suffer when someone runs a snow plow over the top of them? Because this IS going to happen every winter in snowy regions.
Not to my knowledge, but that can just be written off by saying these are just prototypes.
Funny that you should mention things that can just be written off...
It's like rain
on your wedding day,a green light
when you're all
red
dy
late
It's the good advii
iiice
that you just didnt
take
Isn't it ironic coincidence?
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I DO NOT APPROVE OF THIS PRODUCT! IT SHOULD NEVER BE SOLD!
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...Looking back at the FAQ, it says they used 75MW per hex heaters in the test for their 4 square foot systems and found they were overkill. One of their tests...Except that while it is snowing, they won't be generating any electricity, and even at 5 watts per sq ft (20 watts per tile) that is 20% of Illinois electrical generation capacity just for Chicago.
By the 1990s, the Chicago metropolitan area had 54,600 miles of streets and roads, including 2,500 miles of expressways, 17,300 miles of highways and arterial streets, and 34,800 miles of local streets. Almost 80 percent of all commuting was done by automobile.
So the Chicago Metro area has 54,600 miles of roads, at 25 feet wide average (which is just counting them all as wide 2 lane roads) that is 7,207,200,000 square feet of roadway. At 1 watt per square foot, their test was 18 watts per square foot, that is 7.21 Gigawatts of electricity, Illinois produced 16.2 Gigawatts in Feb of this year. So at 1 watt per square foot, the Chicago metro area uses almost half of Illinois' electrical capacity. That doesn't include sidewalks, parking lots, or any of the other places that would have these.You don't have to assume they turn the entire system on at once. You can phase it on, roads at a time, so that your peak load is not as high. As solar panels come back on, you can increase the number you have on. You can phase them on over the course of 2-3 days and it would still be faster than most northern cities can clear all of their streets.
So assuming it takes about 2 hours to clear the panels, and you have 72 hours to do it, you can divide the load by 36.
Now you are looking at 200 Megawatts/hour. You're still dedicating a few traditional turbines to it, so it is overkill. At the same time, you're talking about a 10 gigawatt system, so something that would satisfy more than half of Illinois power needs.
I'm looking for better data, I can only find annual consumption. I
First, where did I say this would replace plows? I have said it may be able to replace salt, but never replace plows. In fact, I talked about how in large snowfall regions like the ones that get constant lake effect this would probably not help. They may be able to reduce the need for plows, but it will always be more efficient to just move large quantities of snow over melting them.
Second, plows can leave about a half inch of snow after they pass that is still dangerous. Depending on the road conditions prior to snowfall, that layer may have significant patches of ice. If these can clear that up, that is huge.
Third, the road in front of my house doesn't get plowed until day 3 after a storm. It's not uncommon for plows to take days to clear a city, even in regions that are prepared for snow.
Finally, not every idea is good for every region. Snow removal technology that works in one area may be bad for another. Different places have different types and quantities of snowfall. It very well may turn out to not be cost effective in a lot of regions. That doesn't mean it is stupid, just that it should not be considered a feature for those places when doing cost estimates.
...Looking back at the FAQ, it says they used 75MW per hex heaters in the test for their 4 square foot systems and found they were overkill. One of their tests...Except that while it is snowing, they won't be generating any electricity, and even at 5 watts per sq ft (20 watts per tile) that is 20% of Illinois electrical generation capacity just for Chicago.
By the 1990s, the Chicago metropolitan area had 54,600 miles of streets and roads, including 2,500 miles of expressways, 17,300 miles of highways and arterial streets, and 34,800 miles of local streets. Almost 80 percent of all commuting was done by automobile.
So the Chicago Metro area has 54,600 miles of roads, at 25 feet wide average (which is just counting them all as wide 2 lane roads) that is 7,207,200,000 square feet of roadway. At 1 watt per square foot, their test was 18 watts per square foot, that is 7.21 Gigawatts of electricity, Illinois produced 16.2 Gigawatts in Feb of this year. So at 1 watt per square foot, the Chicago metro area uses almost half of Illinois' electrical capacity. That doesn't include sidewalks, parking lots, or any of the other places that would have these.You don't have to assume they turn the entire system on at once. You can phase it on, roads at a time, so that your peak load is not as high. As solar panels come back on, you can increase the number you have on. You can phase them on over the course of 2-3 days and it would still be faster than most northern cities can clear all of their streets.
So assuming it takes about 2 hours to clear the panels, and you have 72 hours to do it, you can divide the load by 36.
Now you are looking at 200 Megawatts/hour. You're still dedicating a few traditional turbines to it, so it is overkill. At the same time, you're talking about a 10 gigawatt system, so something that would satisfy more than half of Illinois power needs.
I'm looking for better data, I can only
1. It wasn't a comment about snow plow removal, but acceptability of multi-day street closings.
2. I didn't say that you had argued these would be replacing snow plows.
3. I also didn't say these would not help.
4. Is the road in front of your house a major thoroughfare?
5. I covered the idea of adaptation for this technology on page 1. They can adapt it to regions where it wouldn't work as well with only a few modifications.
First, where did I say this would replace plows? I have said it may be able to replace salt, but never replace plows. In fact, I talked about how in large snowfall regions like the ones that get constant lake effect this would probably not help. They may be able to reduce the need for plows, but it will always be more efficient to just move large quantities of snow over melting them.
Second, plows can leave about a half inch of snow after they pass that is still dangerous. Depending on the road conditions prior to snowfall, that layer may have significant patches of ice. If these can clear that up, that is huge.
Third, the road in front of my house doesn't get plowed until day 3 after a storm. It's not uncommon for plows to take days to clear a city, even in regions that are prepared for snow.
Finally, not every idea is good for every region. Snow removal technology that works in one area may be bad for another. Different places have different types and quantities of snowfall. It very well may turn out to not be cost effective in a lot of regions. That doesn't mean it is stupid, just that it should not be considered a feature for those places when doing cost estimates.
You may not have said it, but they certainly do.
The amount of power a panel produces depends on the amount of sunlight. The amount of power required by the heaters depends on the temperature and the precipitation. Those who live in the northern climates will have to determine if the added safety and the elimination of snow plows, shoveling and road chemicals are worth the investment.
Now even more interesting is this
The heaters will use more power than the panels can make at night or on overcast days, but keep in mind that the heaters will only be on when they are needed. It can be five below zero, but unless there is precipitation or snow drifts, there's no need to activate the heaters.
So how do they know that they need to be on? Will their have to be someone that turns them on? Will they go on when there is a certain amount of weight or more on them (the switch will be going on and off a lot). How will the system know if it's snow or a parked car or your cat? 1" of snow on one of their four square foot panels is about 3.33 lbs. How does the road know if this is an inch of snow or a dead rabbit?
If you are waiting three days to have the road in front of your house plowed, then you need to complain to whichever agency is responsible for snow plowing. Even last winter when several of the local cities had to pile snow in unused parking lots to heights of 15 feet, no one took that long to have their roads plowed.
So I just lost power for the last couple hours because someone hit a power pole... All your arguments against Solar Roadways are now irrelevant.
You mean there are still places that don't bury power lines?
You mean there are still places that don't bury power lines?
Yes.
Sounds like you need to talk with your local government about catching up to the times :P
perhaps these panels are a better solution for "where do we put solar panels" (my driveway, playground, walkway) than how do we get snow off the road.
Ehrmagherd. Like, 10 bazillion omigodwatts this!!!! Ferget the snow people, focus on the other potentials...
They've updated their FAQ with the following information:
Now that our Indiegogo campaign has been successful, we'll be able to move into production pretty fast. Our hometown of Sandpoint, Idaho has the first public projects already lined up for us:
The parking lot of a welcome center
City sidewalks
The Amtrak train station passenger platform
The tarmac at the Sandpoint Airport
The parking lot of our local animal shelterIf all goes well, we should be able to start installing at these locations next spring. At that point, we'll have the first public installations for everyone to see and experience.
Fantastic news!!!
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Sounds like you need to talk with your local government about catching up to the times :P
Nope! We're too busy looking at Russia and hunting. Got no time fer dem gervenment types!
First, where did I say this would replace plows? I have said it may be able to replace salt, but never replace plows. In fact, I talked about how in large snowfall regions like the ones that get constant lake effect this would probably not help. They may be able to reduce the need for plows, but it will always be more efficient to just move large quantities of snow over melting them.
Second, plows can leave about a half inch of snow after they pass that is still dangerous. Depending on the road conditions prior to snowfall, that layer may have significant patches of ice. If these can clear that up, that is huge.
Third, the road in front of my house doesn't get plowed until day 3 after a storm. It's not uncommon for plows to take days to clear a city, even in regions that are prepared for snow.
Finally, not every idea is good for every region. Snow removal technology that works in one area may be bad for another. Different places have different types and quantities of snowfall. It very well may turn out to not be cost effective in a lot of regions. That doesn't mean it is stupid, just that it should not be considered a feature for those places when doing cost estimates.
You may not have said it, but they certainly do.
The amount of power a panel produces depends on the amount of sunlight. The amount of power required by the heaters depends on the temperature and the precipitation. Those who live in the northern climates will have to determine if the added safety and the elimination of snow plows, shoveling and road chemicals are worth the investment.Now even more interesting is this
The heaters will use more power than the panels can make at night or on overcast days, but keep in mind that the heaters will only be on when they are needed. It can be five below zero, but unless there is precipitation or snow drifts, there's no need to activate the heaters.So how do they know that...
They will determine if they are needed by using the many sensors (thermal and load will be easy, perhaps others) mounted on the plate. With the processor inside them, you can probably even determine if there is too much snow for them to be effective, and then shut off the heater until a plow comes by. That you can do just internally. They will also be networked together and communicating with a central hub, so you can send out lots of commands, perhaps even integrate it with weather information.
You mean there are still places that don't bury power lines?
I cannot think of a non-highway road that does not have overhead power lines running parallel to it.
I was teasing about burying the power lines in my last post...
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I was teasing about burying the power lines in my last post...
Nobody understands your humor MagusJanus. Not even your funny bone :P
Wait, I just assumed everybody was joking. Surely you can't be serious.
Isn't it more interesting to discuss this in the context of, say, desert roads? Or anywhere else with lots of sun and minimal snow.
(The whole heating add-on is not a major design function, just a very low-hanging fruit since the module is already full of power lines. It is mostly irrelevant for the environmental discussion: any large scale implementation would start in the most suited areas - unless maybe for political reasons).
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Yes we can, and stop calling me Shirley.
Isn't it more interesting to discuss this in the context of, say, desert roads? Or anywhere else with lots of sun and minimal snow.
(The whole heating add-on is not a major design function, just a very low-hanging fruit since the module is already full of power lines. It is mostly irrelevant for the environmental discussion: any large scale implementation would start in the most suited areas - unless maybe for political reasons).
Because the assumption that solar panels don't work in snowy regions is provably false.
Because the assumption that solar panels don't work in snowy regions is provably false.Isn't it more interesting to discuss this in the context of, say, desert roads? Or anywhere else with lots of sun and minimal snow.
(The whole heating add-on is not a major design function, just a very low-hanging fruit since the module is already full of power lines. It is mostly irrelevant for the environmental discussion: any large scale implementation would start in the most suited areas - unless maybe for political reasons).
Of course, it helps if people installed the solar panels correctly for the energy-usage they are seeing.
Still, snow won't help with the efficiency problems seen in higher latitudes.
Now see I'd fund Solar powered Ninja JediBots.
Practicality be damned.Well, if I could interest you in plans for a 100% solar powered clothes dryer.....they're flying off the shelf at $4.99, but for you as a special Paizo-fans only special I can send you the plans for $1.50 plus postage and handling, I'll see if I can entice the Solar Freaking Roadways braint rusts to get to work on some Solar Freakin Ninjas.
Apparently, their panels work at night with no sunlight, so the ninja bots should be able to as well.
Not sure I can guarantee a lightsaber, (what good is a JediBot without one), but hey: I'm not an engineer, so I don't really know that much about the technology involved in creating a working lightsaber.
shut up and take my money!
shut up and take my money!Now see I'd fund Solar powered Ninja JediBots.
Practicality be damned.Well, if I could interest you in plans for a 100% solar powered clothes dryer.....they're flying off the shelf at $4.99, but for you as a special Paizo-fans only special I can send you the plans for $1.50 plus postage and handling, I'll see if I can entice the Solar Freaking Roadways braint rusts to get to work on some Solar Freakin Ninjas.
Apparently, their panels work at night with no sunlight, so the ninja bots should be able to as well.
Not sure I can guarantee a lightsaber, (what good is a JediBot without one), but hey: I'm not an engineer, so I don't really know that much about the technology involved in creating a working lightsaber.
So yeah... my power just got knocked out again, this time for 4 hours.
No driving between 10 and 2 to maximize electricity generation.
For those of you that missed out on the Solar Roadways, there's Pixel Panties.
Pixel... panties...?
Mal is on board. Freehold oughtta love this.shut up and take my money!Now see I'd fund Solar powered Ninja JediBots.
Practicality be damned.Well, if I could interest you in plans for a 100% solar powered clothes dryer.....they're flying off the shelf at $4.99, but for you as a special Paizo-fans only special I can send you the plans for $1.50 plus postage and handling, I'll see if I can entice the Solar Freaking Roadways braint rusts to get to work on some Solar Freakin Ninjas.
Apparently, their panels work at night with no sunlight, so the ninja bots should be able to as well.
Not sure I can guarantee a lightsaber, (what good is a JediBot without one), but hey: I'm not an engineer, so I don't really know that much about the technology involved in creating a working lightsaber.
I'm all for the prototypes for these roads being used on Whedon and Fillion's driveways.
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So, some other thoughts on ways these could be useful. For instance, in pay parking lots:
determine how long a car has been there (pay parking lots would like this, as would short term parking in business areas)
identify poorly parked people and develop a response (redraw lines to accommodate, send a parking official to ticket, send a tow truck) - also helps with large/nonstandard vehicles
determine if anyone is loitering and develop a response (send a security guard to do a sweep, turn lights on)
direct cars to the nearest parking space
There are certainly others.