I am running the Runelords campaign. Last night the party was fighting the cultist in the sawmill. Just as they meet Justice Ironbriar, one of the PC's decides to light the sawmill on fire.
Explosions occur, Ironbriar escapes before they can even exchange words with him. Fire destroys the mill. The only clues they take from the encounter is when another player decides to save the Raven's in the Rookery by releasing them. After an awesome perception roll, he notices that the raven's all fly directly north.
What's a good way to advance the story? Suggestions? I feel like one of the players always tries to derail the story...sigh
I really like Kalshane's ideas. For a trial, you could use Sandpoint people as character witnesses or act as the defense for them, and possibly even turn it around on Ironbriar in the trial.
If Ironbriar is the only witness, it would be hard for him to prove what they did without incriminating himself...
ohhhh, that's good! Thanks
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My rule-of-thumb is simple: NPCs react like real people, not cardboard cut-outs who only exist to further the PC's plot.
So you have a player who thinks it's fun to derail the plot by "rampant mayhem within (the) city limits" (as Kalshane so elegantly put it)? Let him (or her). But exactly as Kalshane said, the city's going to react to this.
Known facts: A sawmill was burned down with the murdered bodies of over a dozen workers inside.
This would be a massive crime in any city, and the entire guard would mobilize to find the culprits. Ironbriar (and his superiors) could easily find "witnesses" willing to testify that "it was the PCs as done it."
So now the PCs have to contend with not being able to stay in inns, having to hide their identities in the streets, and move around mostly at night.
Should add a far more cloak-and-dagger feel to the AP.
Hope that's what the player was planning on... he did max out ranks in Stealth before burning down the mill, right?
EDIT: Yes, you're getting great ideas. I love all the ideas listed above.
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If Ironbriar is aware of who they are, their names, descriptions, etc., have him swear out warrants for their arrest and hand those warrants over the the Hellknights in Magnimar. Have him take the attitude of "bring them in alive if possible, dead is just as good."
You can have this turn into an on-going struggle they have with the authorities of Magnimar.
-Skeld
You can certainly turn the party into wanted criminals but I would suggest you think long and hard about that before doing so. And I get the whole "authentic city response" thing but it takes the AP completely off the rails. As wanted criminals it's going to be really tough to connect them to the events in Book 3 - no one in Magnimar is going to want to hire or recruit them for that job. And the folk of Sandpoint should turn on them as well.
Further if they are wanted, it's going to be hard, perhaps impossible to preserve their freedom without killing guards or Hellknights (double especially given your seemingly reckless pc's.) Continuing the "authentic city response" - even if they eventually clear their names, any casualties they've inflicted in the mean time are not going to be greeted with any "Let's not worry about who killed who" narratives. At best it'll be "Leave and never return!"
At this point the pc's have only killed Skinsaw Cultists (and their departure leaves the world no poorer.) If they can catch Ironbriar before he gets back into his cover identity they can still make everything alright. So if the timing still works have them catch a glimpse of him fleeing, giving them a chance to follow. Or have them follow the ravens back to Xanesha and find him there. Perhaps Ironbriar gets to the clock tower, and Xanesha orders him, the Scarecrow and a couple faceless stalkers come hunt the pc's down immediately. She tires of their interference.
Keep in mind Ironbriar is very exposed here - how exactly does he know who did what at the mill? Was he there? What an odd place for you to be, Justice? Please explain. Especially difficult, the pc's have a lot of interesting things to say (which can be confirmed via truth magic) - there were stalkers at the foxglove estate, Aldern appears to have been co-opted by the Brothers of the Seven - they have deeds, notes from Xanesha, fighting Skinsaw Cultists in the mill, etc. The best outcome for Ironbriar (and Xanesha's interest in preserving her well-cultivated pet) is not arrest with investigation but quick death. A lot easier to cover up when there aren't any witnesses to offer contrary versions. And Ironbriar can see to it a dead pc is unable to answer a speak with dead if anyone was even motivated to try.
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You can certainly turn the party into wanted criminals but I would suggest you think long and hard about that before doing so. And I get the whole "authentic city response" thing but it takes the AP completely off the rails. As wanted criminals it's going to be really tough to connect them to the events in Book 3 - no one in Magnimar is going to want to hire or recruit them for that job. And the folk of Sandpoint should turn on them as well.
Further if they are wanted, it's going to be hard, perhaps impossible to preserve their freedom without killing guards or Hellknights (double especially given your seemingly reckless pc's.) Continuing the "authentic city response" - even if they eventually clear their names, any casualties they've inflicted in the mean time are not going to be greeted with any "Let's not worry about who killed who" narratives. At best it'll be "Leave and never return!"
At this point the pc's have only killed Skinsaw Cultists (and their departure leaves the world no poorer.) If they can catch Ironbriar before he gets back into his cover identity they can still make everything alright. So if the timing still works have them catch a glimpse of him fleeing, giving them a chance to follow. Or have them follow the ravens back to Xanesha and find him there. Perhaps Ironbriar gets to the clock tower, and Xanesha orders him, the Scarecrow and a couple faceless stalkers come hunt the pc's down immediately. She tires of their interference.
Keep in mind Ironbriar is very exposed here - how exactly does he know who did what at the mill? Was he there? What an odd place for you to be, Justice? Please explain. Especially difficult, the pc's have a lot of interesting things to say (which can be confirmed via truth magic) - there were stalkers at the foxglove estate, Aldern appears to have been co-opted by the Brothers of the Seven - they have deeds, notes from Xanesha, fighting Skinsaw Cultists in the mill, etc. The best outcome for Ironbriar (and Xanesha's interest in preserving...
Unless....
They are sentenced to service with the Black Arrows.
I think that's what I would do if my party had decided to go nuclear on the Skinsaw cult.
1) Heroes burn down sawmill; Ironbriar escapes.
2) Ironbriar has the Hellknights track down and arrest the heroes.
3) A public trial held by Ironbriar sentences the heroes to serve with the Black Arrows.
4) HHM happens with modifications too account for the above.
5) Among Lucretia's belongings, heroes find letters from Xanesha detailing how Ironbriar is her thrall.
6) Heroes have evidence exonerating them and implicating Ironbriar. They can travel back to Magnimar to clear their names and bring Ironbriar down.
-Skeld
Skeld's plan can work but it's got challenges:
1. The players have to buy in at some level. If they don't immediately surrender, sentencing them to the Black Arrows goes from implausible to inconceivable. What if they fight and kill guards or Hellknights? And if the pc's leave town now, they can only assume the cult has not been stopped and the human sacrifices will continue. That's an odd player group to buy into leaving that big of a loose end behind.
2. On what grounds can Ironbriar have them arrested? I'm not arguing for any rights or probable cause stuff just simple what are they accused of doing and what evidence does Ironbriar have? Really only his own testimony and that's not a great line of inquiry for him. "And what were you doing at the mill, Justice?"
3. Certainly a kangaroo court/sham trial structure can be envisioned but it's a really dicey proposition. The players know things Ironbriar has no interest in having any public discourse on. Even if Ironbriar can somehow silence them for the trial, he's gambling they don't have any allies in the temples, noble families or other power brokers in the city. All it takes is one hiccup, one challenge and then all kinds of dirty laundry comes spilling out. The players may not actually have any such allies but there isn't any way for Ironbriar to know that and given the pc's background chances are higher they do than that they do not. The only way to pull this sort of thing off is by DM fiat (You're sentenced to exile and no you don't get to testify at your trial.) That's a good way to produce player rebellion.
4. I think the players already have enough to clear their names and bring Ironbriar down. They know and can testify and be confirmed by Discern Lies that there were faceless stalkers at the Foxglove estate, Aldern was driven insane and to undeath by an organization known as the Brothers of the Seven. The Brothers loaned money to Aldern's proto-lich ancestor and were extorting money from Aldern. Aldern was making payments to someone at the mill and when they went to investigate they were attacked by Skinsaw cultists.
5. It may be the players do not know Ironbriar was there (if his mask never came off) but Ironbriar is the only person that can testify the players started the fire. So any claim of arson can only be based on the player's blurting out the truth or a witness. The only other survivor of the fire is the cult leader... And unless the player who started the fire is an affirmed pyromaniac, claims the fire started as a result of the fight with the cultists will ring as true even under magical examination.
Another option would be for Ironbriar to have them arrested. Then, he can offer them "riches beyond their wildest dreams" for their silence. If they agree, he offers to take them into the fold, and introduce them to his mistress. They're in the business of sacrificing the greedy, maybe she'll take a page from her sister's book, and cultivate it some before attempting to sacrifice them.
Latrecis, I can say I don't share your concerns, and as a player, I wouldn't share them either. The OP obviously knows his players better than we do. You've given some food for thought, but I don't think the other ideas presented here are as bad as you think.
The mill is of course on the river, so the fire probably won't spread very far and much of the evidence will simply get torched and/or washed away. Depending on how long the PCs stick around, they may or may not be spotted leaving the burning building (things like that attract attention) covered in blood and soot. So Ironbriar may not have much difficulty in getting witnesses, and the PCs may have a hard time defending themselves.
OTOH, Ironbriar isn't the only judge in the city, so it's by no means a foregone conclusion.
Skeld's plan can work but it's got challenges:Maybe so, but his campaign is already challenged in the sense that the heroes have decided to burn down the mill and cause general mayhem in the city.
-Skeld
No, no they haven't. There's no sign of "general mayhem in the city" at all.
Let's talk about the players actual "crime" here. I'm making some assumptions based on the AP but the players reach the mill with several pieces of information: someone named Xanesha, Mistress of the Seven sent Aldern to Sandpoint to commit human sacrifice among other foul deeds. When they get to Aldern's townhouse they're ambushed by faceless stalkers impersonating Aldern and wife - clearly an ambush for the pc's. Exploring the townhouse, they find a deed indicating Aldern's ancestor bought the manor with assistance from the Brothers (you know, before he tried to become a lich!) and that this same org was blackmailing Aldern. Heading to the Mill (Brothers' location) they find it crawling with an evil cult of serial killers. While fighting the cultists the building burns to the ground. It's near the river and not connected to any other building so the only building at risk is the lair of the death cult.
Ironbriar can accuse them of killing innocent mill workers but the players know for a fact they were not innocent at all. So, "you're the DM," you can railroad the players into exile, prison, guilt or what have you but if you do so without giving them a reasonable chance to defend themselves you may find the players in open rebellion. The only person that can testify (without perjury) that the players started the fire is the leader of the death cult (the only survivor?) and that is a really dangerous line of inquiry for Ironbriar.
Should the pc's set buildings on fire? Generally, no. Are these pc's sanctioned agents of city (or other pertinent) authority? Probably not. But if we're going to start arresting every pc that acts as a vigilante, the prison rolls will be long indeed.
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Skeld's plan can work but it's got challenges:Maybe so, but his campaign is already challenged in the sense that the heroes have decided to burn down the mill and cause general mayhem in the city.
-Skeld
No, no they haven't. There's no sign of "general mayhem in the city" at all.
Let's talk about the players actual "crime" here. I'm making some assumptions based on the AP but the players reach the mill with several pieces of information: someone named Xanesha, Mistress of the Seven sent Aldern to Sandpoint to commit human sacrifice among other foul deeds. When they get to Aldern's townhouse they're ambushed by faceless stalkers impersonating Aldern and wife - clearly an ambush for the pc's. Exploring the townhouse, they find a deed indicating Aldern's ancestor bought the manor with assistance from the Brothers (you know, before he tried to become a lich!) and that this same org was blackmailing Aldern. Heading to the Mill (Brothers' location) they find it crawling with an evil cult of serial killers. While fighting the cultists the building burns to the ground. It's near the river and not connected to any other building so the only building at risk is the lair of the death cult.
Ironbriar can accuse them of killing innocent mill workers but the players know for a fact they were not innocent at all. So, "you're the DM," you can railroad the players into exile, prison, guilt or what have you but if you do so without giving them a reasonable chance to defend themselves you may find the players in open rebellion. The only person that can testify (without perjury) that the players started the fire is the leader of the death cult (the only survivor?) and that is a really dangerous line of inquiry for Ironbriar.
Should the pc's set buildings on fire? Generally, no. Are these pc's sanctioned agents of city (or other pertinent) authority? Probably not. But if we're going to start arresting every pc that acts as a vigilante, the...
I get that you don't like that idea and that's fine. You say "railroading", I say "reacting." I don't get why you're arguing so hard against it, but that's ok too. OP asked for suggestions, suggestions were given. It's up to OP (who knows his game and his players better than any of us without making assumptions) to decide how he wants to proceed.
-Skeld
I agree with Skeld that the city reacting realistically to a major building being burned down and all inside found dead is definitely not railroading.
Are the PCs in the right? Mostly. (Arson is generally frowned upon in civilized areas and the island the Seven's Sawmill is one contains numerous other mills and businesses. It's not sitting by itself.) Just because you're right doesn't mean everyone automatically believes you and/or takes your side.
Now, the GM shouldn't just say "You get arrested for burning down the mill." That would be railroading. And I would agree the wording of my original post seemed to suggest that route. My mistake.
However, someone in charge of the city's law enforcement is going to take notice of a business being burned to the ground, with the charred remains of its full staff found in the ashes. They are definitely going to try to find out who did it and bring them to justice. Now, whether Ironbriar actually leads the charge, or simply nudges things in the direction of the PCs, he's definitely not going to sit idly by when he has Magnimar's justice system to help him do his dirty work.
If PCs have made it well-known who they are up to this point and where they are staying, then the watch should definitely show up there with an order for their arrest. (My own party was fond of telling everyone that would listen that they were "The Heroes of Sandpoint".)
If they've been a little more subtle, they should hear rumors about "those madmen that burned down the mill" on the streets, and how the watch is looking for them. Have the rumor-mongers have fairly accurate descriptions of one or two of the PCs. Maybe they see some wanted posters. Give them a chance to realize they made a mistake and they need to get to the bottom of the mess before they're found and arrested. Have them hear that one Justice Ironbriar is very interested in locating the perpetrators.
At present, unless they managed to unmask Ironbriar and recognize him, the PCs have no clue of his involvement....
All on board with that. An investigation is absolutely called for including the potential use of divination magic to find out what happened. But absent divination magic, how does anyone not named Ironbriar or in the pc group know the fire wasn't an accident?
You also solved the real thorn for me - an investigation is great but the suggestion seemed to be (jumping to assumptions on my part) that Ironbriar could easily arrange for conviction and punishment with a hint of DM vs players structure. Probably reading too much into it on my part.
Another point I should have made: I take it all back if this is the latest in a trend of reckless, fire-starting behavior by the pc(s.)
While it is definitely true that Ironbriar would most likely try to subvert the city's justice system to punish the players, I wouldn't do this without allowing the players a chance to react.
Any character with street connections in Magnimar could be "tipped off" by the local thieves' guild that Justice Ironbriar is "Out to get them." You can add other hints such as the notion that the vendetta is somehow personal with Ironbriar or that the city records as to the ownership of the sawmill went missing shortly after the fire (though a copy might be retrievable by the players if they work at it and throw some bribe money around).
This might give the players a chance to keep their heads down and also possibly expose Ironbriar.
Peet
Okay,so here is how I planned it. Most of the party (3) were arrested by the city guard upon escaping the burning building. One of the PC's escaped the burning mill by jumping from the Rookery in the nearby ocean. The fifth PC had talked to me earlier about letting his PC die because he wanted to make a new one. HE said I can use his PC as an NPC in the future.
So the three PC's ended up in a holding cell in The Hells. Here they ran into Oric who had previously escaped from Thistletop. They also met the new PC.
The PC's tried to explain to the officials that they were deputized by Sheriff Hemlock in Sandpoint and that he could vouch for them. They spent the night in prison while their stories were verified with Hemlock. The next day they were brought to see the Justice...Ironbriar. He recognized them from the sawmill. He asked to talk to them alone and then cast "Suggestion" on one of the PC's to tell him everything he knew, including that he possibly recognized him from the mill.
Ironbriar then told the PC's that they were to be escorted out of Magnimar and to never return.
The PC's snuck back into the city using disguises and met up with the PC who escaped capture whom had been staking out The Hells. They took refuge in a temple of Iomedae.
They did some digging, found out who owned the now destroyed saw mill, which turned out to be The Brothers Seven. They asked if they owned any other property and I told them they owned an old clock tower.
They also used clever methods to find out where Ironbriar lived. They broke into his apartment and found his robes which were damaged in the fire. This convienced them that he was indeed the man they saw in the saw mill.
They later went to investigate. The session ended with them killing the Scarecrow.
I'm not sure if I should include Ironbriar in the tower since I've heard that Xanesha can be a TPK.
I hope I handled it well. They enjoyed the twists I threw in.
Did everyone have fun? Did the players buy in to what happened? Sounds like the answer to both is Yes. In that case, you handled it well. 'Cause those are the only things that count.
I may have been arguing against having them arrested but I was more interested in making sure the players bought into what was going on and didn't feel railroaded, etc. You made it all work and tied them back into the AP.
You might be on the right track with Ironbriar being too much if paired with Xanesha. And since you already worked the court system in, it might be good to use it to let the players pay Ironbriar back by bringing evidence to the law, having him stripped of authority, etc. They appear to have done a good job investigating.
THE BEST LAID PLANS OF MICE AND DMs.
I know this is an old post, but I just gotta share!
Here is the shenanigans the party I'm DMing committed.
Hemlock sends the pcs with a voucher to Justice Ironbriar for the 300g bounty for the head of the bandit found in the caves below the Misgivings. (Evil DM thinks the party should meet their foe face to face before the inevitable TPK)
Party is given a Warrant to investigate the Foxglove Townhouse by Ironbriar.
Victorious party reports back to Ironbriar of new evidence found implicating a place called The Seven's Sawmill! Ironbriar deputizes pcs and sends them with four hand-picked City Watch to "Help" them. Once the party leaves, Ironbriar hastens to the sawmill. (Evil DM smiles behind his screen at his deviousness.)
Party handily beats the ambush. Party finds the ledger, sends the Raven out with a message written in Ironbriar's handwritting (linguistics check) saying "the Sandpoint troublemakers are dead", a raven returns with a note saying "excellent, bring me their magic."
Having just slain one of Magnimar's most powerful and influential people, party panics and they burn down the sawmill to cover their deed! (Poor DM drowns himself in the toilet bowl.)
Xaneesha, seeing the sawmill burning, knows something is awry. She attempts to contact Ironbriar and finds him unable to answer and realized he is dead.
Xaneesha, who knows of the party's presence from Ironbriar's report on them killing the faceless stalkers in the Foxglove manor, sends out assassins to kill the party members. Assassins fail.
Xaneesha then sends out her new spy, a Quasit named Erylium who has a special hatred for the party having eluded death at their hands no less then three times, to frame the party with the murder of Justice Ironbriar.
Erylium charms a city guard lieutenant and tells him of the murder and where to find the culprit.
Party wakes up to find 50 watch, 5 flying mages, and the captain of the guard at their door in dark hours of the morning.
Party is immediately taken to the Pediment Building where they face an emergency meeting of the 12 remaining Justicars intent on their punishment for daring to slay a Magnimar ruler. (Poor, but still evil, DM spends no small amount of time creating the complete Justice Council including a relatively poor Tommy Lee Jones Justice impersonation.)
With truth magic, party proves their guild of slaying Ironbriar , but are exonerated because it was self-defense. Indeed, they are commended and tasked to follow up on their lead at the old clock tower. And because one their fellow Justices, under their own noses has been committing such heinous crimes, a full scale inquisition of all Justices is held and two Justices find themselves in early retirement!
Just to add this - if you *do* use the city guard response - don't go at them with low level guards.
This is a huge city with very high level casting available - I had a 'strike team' setup and ready to respond to any major thing (like burning down the mill) that consisted of very powerful spell casters and other such - this was something the city didn't keep on hand so there was a delay in response - but it *was* something like a volunteer EMT squad in that powerful allies of the city were recruited to handle very big threats that a big city can draw to itself - with the idea that overwhelming ability to get the party to *stand down* would (hopefully) keep the entire situation from getting worse.
Also - most parties will tend to get shy when faced with lots of guards and obvious spellcasters all wearing a uniform. Even still it *can* go bad if your players want to 'turn the story on it's side'...
Lots of good suggestions above - personally after how my party reacted I left them alone until they finished off big X and as they were hurt/dying/out of resources from that fight is when the guard showed up - but in the course of finding the party they also investigated on their own and already had a good idea of the real threat - the assassination list (evidence burned in the Mill can be found in the tower to help) with the mayor's name on it sealed the deal - with the reward being an apology/thanks/and keep your mouth shut all in one.
Hope it works out for you - don't be afraid to change directions if your players don't co-operate - another option is to have shattered star as a backup - change the pathfinders to the Aspis Consortium and have their agents rescue the PC's from the guard or the attempted arrest and send them after an artifact.... :)
THE BEST LAID PLANS OF MICE AND DMs.
Yes, I did have a large scale volunteer fire brigade show as soon as the flames became visible.
As per the maps i could find, the lumber mill seems to be separated from other buildings. I gave a 10% chance that prevailing winds were strong enough to spread the fire, they were not. I wanted there to be a chance that the party's actions may have caused a huge city fire and the possibility that they kill more innocents than the Skin-saw cult. Consequence to action.
I stressed the fear of the city towns folk as fire in a mid-evil town is a massive threat to life and property.
I didn't think to have city mages show and begin to summon water elementals. I think I'll do a retro on that next game.
I am running the Runelords campaign. Last night the party was fighting the cultist in the sawmill. Just as they meet Justice Ironbriar, one of the PC's decides to light the sawmill on fire.
Explosions occur. . .
Why would anything at the sawmill explode?
So you have a player who thinks it's fun to derail the plot by "rampant mayhem within (the) city limits" (as Kalshane so elegantly put it)? Let him (or her). But exactly as Kalshane said, the city's going to react to this.
With regard to this, if the player's out to derail the plot in a fashion others are not amenable to, I'm not sure this would help the problem as all of this might be part of their fun. If the player's out to disrupt what's going on, then that's an out of game issue and should be handled by sitting down and having a talk out of game about it/applying a proper out of game solution as needed.
Runelords campaign. Last night the party was fighting the cultist in the sawmill. Just as they meet Justice Ironbriar, one of the PC's decides to light the sawmill on fire.
Explosions occur. . .
I am running the Why would anything at the sawmill explode?
IIRC, a sawmill (much like a grain mill) has so many flammable particles of sawdust (or flour in the case of the grain mill) in the air, that explosions are a very real danger if a fire starts.
True.
This is a valid danger in mills both grain silos and wood mills.
My having the sawmill explode was based on a relatively recent real world explosion that happened in my province.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/b-c-sawmill-s-high-dust-leve ls-flagged-before-fatal-blast-1.1224239
All players understood what was happening was theoretically legitimate and I even had the fire starter roll percentile dice to see if an explosion occurred.
Did you use any particular rule mechanics for when/if an explosion was caused? I'm looking for something like that right now, as I have a group ready to start The Skinsaw Murders.