I'm confused about the Sellen River.
How does the Sellen river start at the Lake of Mists and Veils, head south, and somehow get through the mountains that border Andoran/Galt/Taldor?
Basically, the river has four major branches. It doesn't make any sense to me. Which way does the western branch flow? East?
Does anyone know sourcebook material that specifically talks about the river? I have a campaign designed to take place between Kyonin/Galt/Andoran. I know it's a 'major river' but that's about it.
The Five Kings Mountains in Andoran and the Fog Peaks in Galt are two separate mountain ranges. So the river just passes between them.
For the flow of the river just start at the Inner Sea and work your way backwards along any tributary, as rivers only flow one way.Rivers in the real world frequently cut between different mountain ranges. Just look at a map of Europe's huge Danube River and the Carpathian Mountains.
Okay, it makes sense that the mountain ranges between Andoran and Galt create a valley for the Sellen.
But which way does the West Sellen flow? That's really difficult to determine.We can assume that the east Sellen flows west, since if you follow the river east, you come to the mountains, which has to be an origin point.
What really perplexes me is the 4-way branch of the Sellen where Kyonin/Galt/River Kingdoms are conjoined. There's nothing like that on Earth that I can think of. Even the world's greatest rivers - Volga, Rhein, Yellow, Nile, do not have anything like this. The only way that confluence makes sense to me is if the North, West, and East branches converge to flow south into the Inner Sea. If the West Sellen flows from east to West, then that would make absolutely no sense from a hydro-dynamics perspective.
Wrong thread?
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The Mississippi river has a similar joining of tributaries. Especially the Missouri, Mississippi, and Illinois.
All well and good, but I still don't understand the west Sellen and which direction it flows. It seems to me it can only flow from the west (with it's origin in that lake) to east toward that confluence. Then the confluence flows south to the Inner Sea.
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The West Sellen flows out of Lake Encarthan, As well as draining out of Old Sarkoris (the World Wound) it flows South and Easterly until the confluence.
The East Sellen flows from Lake Reykal in Brevoy. It flows South.
The (Main) Sellen flows from the Lake of Mist and Veils, just South of Mendev and West of Brevoy. It flows South.
What's confusing you is that the entire river system is referenced to as "The Sellen". Even the small tributaries that are significant feeders. The Rivers in the Stolen Lands get names but even then one of them is "Little Sellen".
This is partly not to confuse people that aren't hardcore Golariophiles or just don't have a mind for geography. In game it can be a superstition or rivalry, with the inhabitants of each river basin claiming their branch is the "True Sellen".
Topographically Northern Avistan is a gradual slope moving South. Sarkoris and Numeria are like the American High Plains. The eastern border of Numeria is a low mountain range, the Branthlend. East of that the land dips into a low region that has the city of Pitax and a deep Marshy region called Hooktoungue Slough where the East Sellen gets deep and sluggish. Before it pushes South and turns hard to the East towards Mivon.
It's a huge system. The mouth of the Sellen, as it pours into the Inner Sea is likely massively wide, considering how much water actually runs through the system. Like the Mississippi but bigger.
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Welcome to the noble world of fantasy geography. I have yet to find a single map that doesn't have some geographical oddity or inconsistency. Some (*cough*Eragon*cough*) are more egregious than others, but that said Golarion is one of the more geographically sound, and I don't really see anything that couldn't be explained. Odd, perhaps, but nothing impossible.
Also worth noting is that I highly doubt the rivers are to scale when concerning their breadth. If they were, then pretty much every river in Golarion would dwarf every river on Earth except maybe the Amazon.
It's entirely possible they are to scale; there's some evidence that suggests that, at various points in Earth's history, its rivers might have actually been much bigger than they are now.
The Mississippi, for example, was at first confused for the Pacific Ocean due to its size by European settlers. Even now, it's still sometimes referred to as an inland sea instead of a river.
So, if Golarion is geologically at an earlier period than Earth currently is, then it's entirely probable for the rivers to be massively bigger.
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Perhaps, but go onto Google Maps and see how small an area you have to zoom into in order to make the Nile the same width as any river on the map of Golarion. If it was once twice or three times as wide, it'd only allow zooming out another step. Egypt barely fits on my 1920x1080 monitor at that scale. Compare to the better part of two continents that Golarion's map shows. Those rivers aren't simply large, they're massive. Only the Amazon and Brahmaputra are anything approaching the same scale as the rivers - as drawn - on Golarion's map. Therefore, my conclusion is that the rivers on the map are not to scale with regards to width and are simply enlarged to make them easier to see. Otherwise, you'd be able to sail the Titanic up to the headwaters of almost all of them.
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Of say it's safe to assume that the Sellen, between the Confluence and the Inner Sea, is more than 5 miles wide. The stretch from Lake Encarthan to the Confluence is likely as big too.
Somewhere, War of the River Kings (?), the feeder river for main Branch that Pitax is on, is mentioned as being particularly wide. Pitax has a huge harbor and it's pretty far upstream. That may seem wonky geographically but it's hard to imagine that the area doesn't get what we call Lake Effect Snow from the Lake of Mist and Veils. That's a lot of melt water.
It's not on the, big, map of Avistan but the Castrovin Sea is just East of Brevoy. Literally just off the map. Nothing actually drains into it though because of the unnamed range of mountains on the border where Skywatch is. Which likely runs farther South Basically all of central Avistan drains into the Sellen. We don't have a river system on Earth that really compares. The Great Lakes are weird in that they drain NE along the Border of Canada and the U.S. If the Great Lakes drained into the Mississippi that would be similar. But if you were to combine the water outflow of the Mississippi and the Saint Lawrence, 2 of the most heavily traveled waterways on Earth, that would be a massive volume of water, Hydrologically; the most significant fresh water system in existence.
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Welcome to the noble world of fantasy geography. I have yet to find a single map that doesn't have some geographical oddity or inconsistency. Some (*cough*Eragon*cough*) are more egregious than others, but that said Golarion is one of the more geographically sound, and I don't really see anything that couldn't be explained. Odd, perhaps, but nothing impossible.
Also worth noting is that I highly doubt the rivers are to scale when concerning their breadth. If they were, then pretty much every river in Golarion would dwarf every river on Earth except maybe the Amazon.
No kidding.
My favourite is G.R.R. Martin's Westeros, where the Blackwater Rush and the Mander just about cross each other, flowing in opposite directions.
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In light of your comment, zag, I'd just like to say that - at least the main branch of the Sellen - could indeed be mapped entirely to scale (in fact, the stretch that goes through Verduran Forest looks like it may actually be a little too narrow). My point is just that I highly doubt all the rivers are.
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-A bunch of wizards did it.
-A bunch of druids did it.
-A bunch of clerics did it.
-A bunch of fey did it.
-A bunch of elementals did it.
-Golarion is younger than Earth.
-Other magic.
-Sheer chance.
Pick any of those you like. Earth logic need not apply.
Perhaps, but go onto Google Maps and see how small an area you have to zoom into in order to make the Nile the same width as any river on the map of Golarion. If it was once twice or three times as wide, it'd only allow zooming out another step. Egypt barely fits on my 1920x1080 monitor at that scale. Compare to the better part of two continents that Golarion's map shows. Those rivers aren't simply large, they're massive. Only the Amazon and Brahmaputra are anything approaching the same scale as the rivers - as drawn - on Golarion's map. Therefore, my conclusion is that the rivers on the map are not to scale with regards to width and are simply enlarged to make them easier to see. Otherwise, you'd be able to sail the Titanic up to the headwaters of almost all of them.
That's the Nile as it exists today. Some of the historical texts suggest it used to be much bigger than it is now, before desertification of Africa got to the point it is today.
And even now, modern rivers are shrinking; it's been noted that a lot of rivers have lost water over the past century. Some rivers are even in danger of vanishing entirely.
So, it's possible that all of the rivers really are that massive simply because the land hasn't had centuries of desertification yet.
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1. Old accounts have a tendency towards exaggeration.
2. As I said, even doubling or tripling its size doesn't help. And I also pointed out other, much larger rivers. It certainly isn't out of the question that some of Golarion's rivers are massive, but if they all were as large as they are on the map, then they would have the flow of a lake only having any meaningful flow rate when they flood.
Golarion's map covers roughly the same area as one that stretches from Iceland to Nigeria. At that scale, show me more than a handful of rivers that are remotely visible. The Seine or Rhine would need to be the size of the Amazon, and I highly doubt they were ever anywhere near that size. It isn't merely the size of the rivers - as I mentioned earlier, I could accept the Sellen being incredibly wide - but the fact that if to scale, there would be hundreds of Amazon-sized rivers on Golarion.
1. The old accounts include some tax and trade records; there is no way they could have moved that much product on the Nile with the size it is today.
2. Golarion is not Earth, is likely geologically younger, and has a much different geological history. So showing you any Earth river at all that matches that would be pointless, since Golarion is not Earth and not subject to the same geological alterations.
3. Geographically, Earth from even 1000 years ago doesn't match Earth today. For example, Greenland has a different climate now than it had around 1000 years ago. So if Golarion is massively younger, the fact it doesn't match the geography of modern Earth makes sense.
4. Golarion is not the only celestial body that outright defies what is possible on Earth. Take a look at some of moons of Saturn and Jupiter. Or some of the recently-discovered planets in other systems and what we know about them. Or Mars for that matter.
Edit: Corrected something that, as worded, was false.
In light of your comment, zag, I'd just like to say that - at least the main branch of the Sellen - could indeed be mapped entirely to scale (in fact, the stretch that goes through Verduran Forest looks like it may actually be a little too narrow). My point is just that I highly doubt all the rivers are.
Lol I pretty much assume no rivers are to scale in RPGs.
Stolen Lands has an encounter map that is way to small on the Shrike River.
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Truth be told. Most RPG maps don't have nearly enough rivers. They just show the big ones. Most have 100s of miles at a stretch with no river basins. That's only viable in very arid climates.
Not to mention the total lack of flood tables.
The Mountain Ranges are wonky too. Mountains have nothing to do with Tectonic plates, they exist in places that seem convenient.
And for some reason, there is an obsession with giant crash water seas.
Nyr Dyv.
Sea of Fallen Stars
Lake Encarthan.
These make Lake Superior look like above ground swimming pools.
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I agree. It seems to me, most RPG maps have not been made with Plate Tectonics in mind. I suppose there are some exceptions. Usually the central portions of campaign worlds have all sorts of mountain ranges going every which way...and the outlying regions, often put together by one designer, tend to make a little more sense.
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While discussing the Sellen, this might be interesting: river bifurcation and this Casiquiare_canal. There might be some of this in the Sellen river.
All waters in all RPGs must be epic. The Lake of Unknown Depths; Lake Encarthan; The Sellen River. They must be impressive. Similar to forests. Here in real world MN, USA there's TONS of little woods and streams; it's "the land of 10,000 lakes". In Golarion this state would be like a few hexes and have A lake in it.
On the flipside, imagine a map of, say, Galt or Cheliax with EVERY single, regional watercourse and smaller wood lot located and named. That would be ridonculous.
Back in 1E the DMG had a table of "what's in the next hex." In the description to the table's terrain types it also mentions that there may be other, minor terrain types too. I think there's similar verbiage in the Gamemastery Guide as well.
It may be that the Lands of 10,000 Sellens have millions of tiny creeks, streams and ponds all draining into the few mega-rivers that are tossed haphazardly across the topography. To that point there might also be sudden hills not noted on overland maps; 100 acre woods scattered wherever the land/climate might support them; perhaps even a lone butte or peak known only to the locals but not located on the PCs game map.
TL/DR: sometimes we just wing it. I hate saying "it's magic" but, y'know, every ONCE in a while...
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This thread got me thinking, so I revisited the maps and source material and did some topolographical comparisons with Earth.
One of the things that get seriously overlooked on Golarion is the Roof of the World. They have a landmass under the polar ice. That's important because it changes the global weather pattern. Also one of the neat things about our world and water is that virtually all river systems flow towards the South. There are notable exceptions but they are all exceptions. Hydrologically, on Earth, its theorized that all water makes it's way to Antartica every couple hundred years and goes through the primary recycling phase. This is where TV pundits argue with scientists about desalination and weather patterns. Antartica and the Arctic ocean have a push pull relationship.
The Roof of the World would produce a very different effect. As a massive landmass the size of Antartica would contain a significant portion of the planets fresh water. Unlike Antartica however, it is connected to 3 other large landmasses, Avistan, Casmarron (above the Castrovin) and Tien La. Those land masses would prevent what we call the "Antartic Curtain" which keeps that continent even colder than it would normally be. The Push/Pull effect would be Different since the oceanic currents would be forced along the giant Coast lines of those large Northern Continents.
On Avistan, the Sellen inherits all of the water that runs out East of Irrisen and North and West of Iobarria. Kind of like how the Amazon drains most of South America, just larger. It's safe to say that cannon sources tell us that Belkzen, the Kodars and the Storval Plateau are an unusual rise in elevation in Western Avistan. So everything East of that drains towards Lake Encarthan. Which actually explains it's size. Geologically Encarthan is big enough to be a "sealed system" with no outflow, relying on evaporation to cycle water. The Roof of the World however would strain that sealed system though, forcing ice South. The Age of Darkness would have been cold with little to no solar gain, this would explain the Lake of Mist and Veils as a glacial lake from that time period. As the world warmed up, the Roofs extended Icepack melted pushing South flooding the River Kingdoms and breaking through a low point in the eastern Five Kings Mountains.
Thus the Sellen gets an outflow and the largest fresh water system (that we've seen) floods into the Inner Sea. That's all speculative.
I think Paizo may have thought ahead on this one. The river system makes sense in that respect. We still need to see what Northern Casmarron looks like and the real shape of the Castrovin Sea. That the Castrovin effects the weather in Avistan is cannon and it could explain the wet nature of the River Kingdoms as a whole. Especially if the rain it produces is counter seasonal to the inevitable flooding of something that drains an entire continent. That would help explain the complete lack of floods in the written literature.
The Facebook link doesn't seem to lead anywhere. Unless it's a link I have to create an account for >.<
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Hmmm.
thank you for putting it up in a non facebook place.
Death to Facebook.
Thank you for the blog link!
Also one of the neat things about our world and water is that virtually all river systems flow towards the South. There are notable exceptions but they are all exceptions.
Eh? Rivers flow downhill. And that can mean all directions. For example (broadly speaking):
Nile, Rhine, Orinoco, Ob, Yenisei, Lena - northAmazon, Yangtze, Yellow, Danube, Zambezi, Thames, St Lawrence, Rio Grande, Ganges, Tay - east
Congo, Avon - west
Mississippi, Rhone, Severn, Brahmaputra, Tigris, Euphrates, Mekong, Parana - south
Very few major rivers flow east, but that's largely because the Rockies & Andes get in the way, and Eurasia faces east-west.