So...one of my players has recently leveled up and is getting ready to take Spell Perfection soon. I didn't think anything of it. What was I to expect? Maximized Empowered fireballs or a Bouncing Persistent Flesh to Stone are hardly beyond my means to handle as a GM.
However, I recently learned that, of all things, he plans on taking true strike. He intends to be able to cast quickened true strike ALL day long in return for using up only his 1st-level spell slots.
So, is this something I should worry about: True Strike which is (essentially) at will as a swift action?
He has been gloating about being able to disarm anybody and everybody easily, bull rushing grounded enemies into lethal pits with spells to take them out of the fight for long periods, using it in conjunction with telekinesis to keep even large, strong creatures perpetually pinned, automatically hitting with his catapult (which he keeps shrunk with shrink item), etc. I'm sure he has more devious things in mind worthy of a character of his level, but I prefer not to get caught off guard, so I turn to you and ask "what else might I expect from such a combo?"
So...one of my players has recently leveled up and is getting ready to take Spell Perfection soon. I didn't think anything of it. What was I to expect? Maximized Empowered fireballs or a Bouncing Persistent Flesh to Stone are hardly beyond my means to handle as a GM.
However, I recently learned that, of all things, he plans on taking true strike. He intends to be able to cast quickened true strike ALL day long in return for using up only his 1st-level spell slots.
So, is this something I should worry about: True Strike which is (essentially) at will as a swift action?
He has been gloating about being able to disarm anybody and everybody easily, bull rushing grounded enemies into lethal pits with spells to take them out of the fight for long periods, using it in conjunction with telekinesis to keep even large, strong creatures perpetually pinned, automatically hitting with his catapult (which he keeps shrunk with shrink item), etc. I'm sure he has more devious things in mind worthy of a character of his level, but I prefer not to get caught off guard, so I turn to you and ask "what else might I expect from such a combo?"
I think he will be annoying at best. True Strike does not affect CMD since it gives a bonus to the attack roll, not to BAB, so I doubt he will keep anything grappled or get it pinned. I think it sounds a lot worse than it actually is. True Strike(attack roll) is still fooled by miss chance. Readying actions also works.
As for the catapult how is he going to load it, and it a well placed disintegrate will put it out of commission for while, but since catapults don't do great damage I would let him use it. Now if you have houseruled catapults to do damage that matters I don't know what to tell you except try to force him away from it.
Just curious what class(es) is the character? Because I think his assessment about easily using CM's is gonna be highly dependent on that BAB. Thinking of the lvl. 15 shield fighter I made who was pushing 50's on his CMD against some maneuvers Thanks to the human fighter CMD bonus options and was mid 40's for the others.
So...one of my players has recently leveled up and is getting ready to take Spell Perfection soon. I didn't think anything of it. What was I to expect? Maximized Empowered fireballs or a Bouncing Persistent Flesh to Stone are hardly beyond my means to handle as a GM.
However, I recently learned that, of all things, he plans on taking true strike. He intends to be able to cast quickened true strike ALL day long in return for using up only his 1st-level spell slots.
So, is this something I should worry about: True Strike which is (essentially) at will as a swift action?
He has been gloating about being able to disarm anybody and everybody easily, bull rushing grounded enemies into lethal pits with spells to take them out of the fight for long periods, using it in conjunction with telekinesis to keep even large, strong creatures perpetually pinned, automatically hitting with his catapult (which he keeps shrunk with shrink item), etc. I'm sure he has more devious things in mind worthy of a character of his level, but I prefer not to get caught off guard, so I turn to you and ask "what else might I expect from such a combo?"
I think he will be annoying at best. True Strike does not affect CMD since it gives a bonus to the attack roll, not to BAB, so I doubt he will keep anything grappled or get it pinned. I think it sounds a lot worse than it actually is. True Strike(attack roll) is still fooled by miss chance. Readying actions also works.
As for the catapult how is he going to load it, and it a well placed disintegrate will put it out of commission for while, but since catapults don't do great damage I would let him use it. Now if you have houseruled catapults to do damage that matters I don't know what to tell you except try to force him away from it.
This is just from memory, but don't catapults require a skill check to aim (Knowledge: engineering or Profession: engineer or some such?)?
I think you'll discover that the disarming thing will be the most annoying. If he/she can reach it, it's gone. Unerring Arrows of Slaying also springs to mind.
And don't forget that the +20 also applies to crit confirmations.
I think he will be annoying at best. True Strike does not affect CMD since it gives a bonus to the attack roll, not to BAB, so I doubt he will keep anything grappled or get it pinned. I think it sounds a lot worse than it actually is. True Strike(attack roll) is still fooled by miss chance. Readying actions also works.
All combat maneuvers are also attacks/attack rolls. That is made clear in the combat chapter. Also, true strike bypasses any miss chance from concealment (which is almost all of it).
All combat maneuvers are also attacks/attack rolls. That is made clear in the combat chapter.I think he will be annoying at best. True Strike does not affect CMD since it gives a bonus to the attack roll, not to BAB, so I doubt he will keep anything grappled or get it pinned. I think it sounds a lot worse than it actually is. True Strike(attack roll) is still fooled by miss chance. Readying actions also works.
I think he is referring to the attempt to break grapple where the players CMD will not have the +20 bonus ever.
I think he is referring to the attempt to break grapple where the players CMD will not have the +20 bonus ever.All combat maneuvers are also attacks/attack rolls. That is made clear in the combat chapter.I think he will be annoying at best. True Strike does not affect CMD since it gives a bonus to the attack roll, not to BAB, so I doubt he will keep anything grappled or get it pinned. I think it sounds a lot worse than it actually is. True Strike(attack roll) is still fooled by miss chance. Readying actions also works.
Ah. I misread his post. Thanks for pointing that out.
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Is this any worse that the wizard who would otherwise spend feats and spell slots to go invisible, fly, and drop nukes from mid air at +40 stealth?
It's not that bad, A sorcerer going out of his way to take things into his own HANDS should be an impressive sight, and in fact might make a GREAT character concept. Yeah he's gish, cool! I don't REALLY see this messing things up so bad, they are already going to need to be in melee so its not like you can position your monsters a little better to take advantage of AoO to teach him a lesson maybe?
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This is just from memory, but don't catapults require a skill check to aim (Knowledge: engineering or Profession: engineer or some such?)?
Close, but you're right on the important part. Namely, attacking with a siege engine isn't an attack roll, it's a special check against a set DC.
Reference: Siege engine rules
The catapult was actually the least of my (possible) concerns. It's damage is really low.
It eats up his swift action every round - so he gets one good shot at doing something. He'll eat through his 1st level spell slots like candy corn. Irritating, some times annoying.
Spell Perfection comes into its own with spells that benefit from Greater Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Focus and abilities similar to them. Also, you cannot take Spell Perfection more than once (as far as I read the feat), so he loses out on some really nasty potential combinations.
(Such as a DC 42 chain lightning ...)
So...one of my players has recently leveled up and is getting ready to take Spell Perfection soon. I didn't think anything of it. What was I to expect? Maximized Empowered fireballs or a Bouncing Persistent Flesh to Stone are hardly beyond my means to handle as a GM.
However, I recently learned that, of all things, he plans on taking true strike. He intends to be able to cast quickened true strike ALL day long in return for using up only his 1st-level spell slots.
So, is this something I should worry about: True Strike which is (essentially) at will as a swift action?
He has been gloating about being able to disarm anybody and everybody easily, bull rushing grounded enemies into lethal pits with spells to take them out of the fight for long periods, using it in conjunction with telekinesis to keep even large, strong creatures perpetually pinned, automatically hitting with his catapult (which he keeps shrunk with shrink item), etc. I'm sure he has more devious things in mind worthy of a character of his level, but I prefer not to get caught off guard, so I turn to you and ask "what else might I expect from such a combo?"
Just a question I haven't seen posed yet... how is he expecting to cast his 1st level spell all day, every round? Doesn't Spell Perfection simply allow you to treat 1 spell as being always under the effects of a metamagic feat when you cast it? I don't remember it allowing you to make it an at-will spell like ability.
It eats up his swift action every round - so he gets one good shot at doing something. He'll eat through his 1st level spell slots like candy corn. Irritating, some times annoying.
Spell Perfection comes into its own with spells that benefit from Greater Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Focus and abilities similar to them. Also, you cannot take Spell Perfection more than once (as far as I read the feat), so he loses out on some really nasty potential combinations.
(Such as a DC 42 chain lightning ...)
I've recently made a character with bouncing persistent flesh to stone with DC 35. Makes Narnia's Ice Queen cry.
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Just a question I haven't seen posed yet... how is he expecting to cast his 1st level spell all day, every round? Doesn't Spell Perfection simply allow you to treat 1 spell as being always under the effects of a metamagic feat when you cast it? I don't remember it allowing you to make it an at-will spell like ability.
Yeah, he's going to be doing this, what, 6-8 times per day, assuming he blows all his 1st level slots doing it. I guess that could still be enough to be bothersome.
But, as others have pointed out, True Strike doesn't help your AC, CMD, or HP...
6 or 8? More like 50+. You can put spells in higher level slots too if you really want to. In any case, it's always treated as a 1st level spell regardless of what metamagic he applies thanks to Spell Perfection.
I don't know about you, but 6 or 8 is effectively "at will" more often then not, much less 50+.
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Sounds fun. Although True Strike basically guarantees a hit and ignores most miss chance, he still has to actually do something damaging. Could be fun to use on those Enervation spells, to make sure they hit. Or if he can use it while polymorphed (such as in Giant Form) it'll be good to use there. Too bad it won't work with transformation.
I don't think it'll be a big issue. It's a neat toy and it helps him use those 1st level spells for something other than magic missile. But you're what, 15th level? Quickened true strike can't possibly be the greatest of your worries or the worst of your troubles.
But you're what, 15th level? Quickened true strike can't possibly be the greatest of your worries or the worst of your troubles.
15th level is the earliest you can take Spell Perfection. The party is 13th, currently.
And it isn't my greatest concern, not by a long shot. Still, it was unexpected, and I don't much like surprises, so I was hoping the community could better prepare me for the myriad of possibilities such an ability might produce.
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Well, it's entirely possible that he'll use Giant Form, Iron Body, and other buffs to bulk up, then he'll let loose a few True Strikes to deal damage. Which is pretty scary, but if your party has a fighter, the fighter is probably equally scary in that regard. And he makes himself very vulnerable to dispel magic while he does this - he needs a lot of buffs to be effective with strikes. It also sounds like your player is looking forward to using True Strike with combat maneuvers while in some large-sized form.
If he's attacking enemies with enough reach, they'll get an AoO on him, and a +20 still might not be enough to make his wizard CMB topple the largest of foes with 100% accuracy. Dragons, for example, will have a CMD in the mid-forties Or high forties. Ouch.
I'm sure it'll be effective some of the time. But he still needs to get in attack range in order to, well, attack. And it won't be effective all the time against everything, since he can pretty much only attack one creature at a time with this trick.
I question whether that shrunk catapult is legit. I mean, it probably doesn't matter much, but Shrink Item allows you to shrink an item that is 2 cubic feet per level. 30 cubic feet sounds like a lot, but consider the following:
An item three feet wide, three feet tall, and three feet long is (3x3x3) twenty-seven cubic feet. Sooo... that's pretty close to his limit. A three-foot cube. It's probably not a game-breaky thing to allow, so it's not like play will suffer a ton, but I don't think the RAW allows it. Unless it's a tiny catapult. Which would make sense, I mean those catapults do hardly any damage.
(Aside: How the HELL are castle assaults supposed to work in D&D? The "heavy" catapult deals 6d6 damage (a nifty 21 points on average), and you're supposed to take down a hewn stone wall with it? It's got 8 hardness and 540 hp! You're doing an average of 13 damage per hit, so it takes you 42 attacks on average... to destroy one segment of wall?!? And you can only attack every other round? Catapults really, really, REALLY need to do more damage.)
To answer your question...yes...because your...well you.
Me? A kind and understanding GM who plays NPCs realistically rather than from a gamist standpoint, who follows the written rules as he understands them, does what he can to spread the joy that is roleplaying fun to his players?
Why, thank you for the compliment.
Is it overpowered compared to other shinanigens you can pull at those level? Hell no. But then again I forsee you back with a rant when it happens none the less.
I seriously doubt that. Not much reason for me to rant about it after the fact when I already have a thread discussing it BEFORE the fact.
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To answer your question...yes...because your...well you.Me? A kind and understanding GM who plays NPCs realistically rather than from a gamist standpoint, who follows the written rules as he understands them, does what he can to spread the joy that is roleplaying fun to his players?
Why, thank you for the compliment.
Is it overpowered compared to other shinanigens you can pull at those level? Hell no. But then again I forsee you back with a rant when it happens none the less.I seriously doubt that. Not much reason for me to rant about it after the fact when I already have a thread discussing it BEFORE the fact.
1) well it wasn't meant as an insult...just a comment of youness so take it however you want.
2) And the rant now is gonna stop the rant after the player does whatever it is that you think is broken how?!? Unless your willing to accept well it could be worse, I forsee you in a future rant.
And the rant now is gonna stop the rant after the player does whatever it is that you think is broken how?!? Unless your willing to accept well it could be worse, I forsee you in a future rant.
I shall happily prove you wrong. :)
To answer your headline question: No
Character is giving up action (on those levels Swift actions really count) in order to succeed in the other action more reliably. Giving up half of your actions is huge and I think won't be worth it.
About manouveras: Unless he has trained manouvers the success is hardly automatic. Sorc loses 8BAB by level 15, probably 5 from stats that help manouvers (because he/she has to raise charisma), and the CMD is always 10+DEX (lets say 4) higher than CMB => Sorc needs roll 9 to succeed (so not nearly guaranteed). If the opponent is exceptionally large&strong/has trained manouvers, the sorc is probably gonna fail no matter +20. If the sorc has trained manouvers, then its about right he gets something out of it (although still not a sure case).
Is it overpowered compared to other shinanigens you can pull at those level? Hell no.
This pretty much sums up my opinion on the matter. By level 15, things are already coming apart at the seams; I don't think that a bunch of quickened True Strikes are going to change things one way or the other.
This pretty much sums up my opinion on the matter. By level 15, things are already coming apart at the seams; I don't think that a bunch of quickened True Strikes are going to change things one way or the other.
+1 more for this.
Honestly, I think you could come up with ten more difficult to deal with uses of spell perfection without even trying. It's good in its way but on a playing field where 8th level spells are out it's just not that scary.
[rolls a 1]
OR
[rolls a 10, hits, does 25 damage or disarms one opponent]
OR
[rolls a 20, confirms, does 50 damage or automatically disarms an opponent]
VS
[two reflex saves; one failure is 90 damage. One reflex save; failure is 90 damage]
[assuming he's hitting a big CR encounter of mooks, at 15 he could fight 5 CR 10 creatures. So, he's doing around 720 damage assuming one passed save per monster. Almost all of them die.]
[assuming he's hitting just one or two large CR monsters, that's 300 or so damage. Assuming he's fighting something like two nalfeshnees, he's leaving one at half hp and the other at 30 hp. he breaks SR on a -3 on a d20 with spell pen and greater spell pen]
[assuming he's fighting a monster with a weakness or immunity to fire, he could drop intensify spell and just use elemental spell to get this damage through (60+60) or if they're weak, mimic intensify and do (90+90).]
True strike is really not that alarming.
EDIT:
About manouveras: Unless he has trained manouvers the success is hardly automatic. Sorc loses 8BAB by level 15, probably 5 from stats that help manouvers (because he/she has to raise charisma), and the CMD is always 10+DEX (lets say 4) higher than CMB => Sorc needs roll 9 to succeed (so not nearly guaranteed). If the opponent is exceptionally large&strong/has trained manouvers, the sorc is probably gonna fail no matter +20. If the sorc has trained manouvers, then its about right he gets something out of it (although still not a sure case).
Yeah. 8+5+5 gives him a +18 attack roll. +38 when true striking a 15th level fighter, for instance... 15+7+4+3+3+1=43 CMD. He could still fail and despite the needing under a 4, the chances are high. Doing it untrained provokes, and the fighter can likely hit him with a +28 attack roll, adding his damage to his CMD against disarm-- likely at least 20 by level 15, on a minimum damage roll.
For a 15th level wiz/sorc I would say true strike is actually a very non-optimized use of spell perfection. One auto-hit per round at the cost of a swift action and low-level spell slots is nothing at the level.
Spell perfection is most potent when combined with area-effect SOS spells and the relevant spell focus/penetration feats (which are doubled).
He could have done a lot better (or worse depending on what side of the table you are on).
I would not mind a quickened true strike. Any of the touch or ranged touch spells that he 'really' wants to stick are still significant threats.
I would be more worried about a magical lineage 40' radius dazing quickened heightened persistent stone call, to lock down a battlefield for 3 rounds of dazed critters. Time stop for the whole party...
That may not be the greatest example, but I second the Pawn512 notion of area SoS.
An option for true strike is the combo with Telekinesis, using the CMB to lock down stuff or the violent thrust ability to fire lots of weapons via telekinesis, and have lots of them hit. A few quivers of bane arrows would squash lots of threats, but it's way more expensive than the fire blaster guy.
It is an alternative to the mook-burning option from Ice Titan, but is a great anti-BBEG plan.
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I was about to post to the OP just how weak a combo this was, but then I realized the OP was me. Hurrah for thread necromancy. :|
I wonder how well this might work with a spell slinger? They're known for shooting ray spells from their guns and what not, right?
It is not going to be a problem. A Magus can do this by level three with a wand of true strike. I have a character that is set up to do this. You can only do one attack a round so it is not that bad. I do not use it that much unless I am dealing with a enemy that very high AC or has concelment.
2010!
Did your player ever wind up actually trying this RD? I'm curious if it was even remotely effective if he did.
He did some neat things with it. Nothing terribly spectacular. When the retraining rules came out he ended up retraining the selection out for a different spell.
Ravingdork, did he end up doing it? How did it work out for him?
I was (still am) considering building a Qinggong monk with Quicken Spell-Like Ability for True Strike. Use Bull Rush, Reposition, Ki Throw, and the Flowing Monk abilities to chuck all his enemies wherever he wants them around the battlefield.
edit: ninja'ed!
I was (still am) considering building a Qinggong monk with Quicken Spell-Like Ability for True Strike. Use Bull Rush, Reposition, Ki Throw, and the Flowing Monk abilities to chuck all his enemies wherever he wants them around the battlefield.
Zen Archer w/ a 3 level Archer Fighter dip. You won't qualify for Quicken SLA until character level 13, but that's about the time that you'll really need the +20 to have a chance to actually succeed at the ranged combat manoeuvre anyhow. The only question is, ranged sunder or ranged disarm?
I was about to post to the OP just how weak a combo this was, but then I realized the OP was me. Hurrah for thread necromancy. :|
I lol'd. I knew it was coming and I lol'd.
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Magda prepares Quickened Truestrike as a 5th level domain spell, once per day, in place of Break Enchantment. Like people say, it's sometimes handy to certainly succeed on an attack against a very tough foe, but it's hardly game breaking. Magda usually keeps it in reserve, for when things get hairy. It's nice to add to that last iterative on a full attack, to be sure it hits. She once hit AC58, at 9th level, using this approach.
It's astonishing how often one rolls a natural 1 on truestrike attacks. A luck domain re-roll makes this not too bad, though. Never rolled consecutive natural 1s on a truestrike.
That's a big difference between Magda and a character having unlimited uses of the same power.Magda prepares Quickened Truestrike as a 5th level domain spell, once per day, in place of Break Enchantment. Like people say, it's sometimes handy to certainly succeed on an attack against a very tough foe, but it's hardly game breaking. Magda usually keeps it in reserve, for when things get hairy. It's nice to add to that last iterative on a full attack, to be sure it hits. She once hit AC58, at 9th level, using this approach.
It's astonishing how often one rolls a natural 1 on truestrike attacks. A luck domain re-roll makes this not too bad, though. Never rolled consecutive natural 1s on a truestrike.
Shall I take this as an admission that casters never run out of spells at this level? Because I think I'm going to. Regardless adding +20 to attacks at these levels is pointless. You should be defeating enemies without having to roll at all at level 15. What's the problem?
Quickened true strike is monstrous when coupled with black tentacles. Not a game ender, but free quickened true strike for that purpose can be pure nastiness.
This is a "non-bo". The only legal target for True Strike is yourself.