Magus int bump retroactive?


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

So I know that if I up my int I add in skills retroactively.

Since magus starting spells are based off of int, would this be effected retroactively, as well?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

No. Same thing applies to Wizards and Witches as well.


Yes, any permanent increase to intelligence increases the number of ranks you have (note: the Headband of Intelligence is specifically worded to tie the increased ranks to a specific skill).

You also gain new starting languages. FAQ

Regarding the starting spells, there is no rule covering this. Before the starting languages FAQ I would have said no. But barring any evidence to the contrary due to the languages FAQ as a semi-related precedent the answer is probably yes.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If it's not stated, you don't get it. I also have a logical problem with this. Your INT bonus is for your STARTing bundle of spell book spells. Just because you've gianed Int over time, your spell book isn't rewritten from the future.

You can't increase your number of "starting spells" because you've long left your "start" behind.


LazarX, and I would have (I did) applied that exact same logic to starting languages. But, as the FAQ stated, that goes up whenever your intelligence goes up.

It also was not stated and yet the FAQ has reversed that bit of logic.

I am not saying you are incorrect, I did not state you get the spells. But, if a nearly identical sequence of logic was reversed by the FAQ might it also stand to reason that the starting spells do not go up as your intelligence does is on shaky logical ground?


It's for ease if book keeping. So if you make a higher level character (rather that leveling up from first), you don't have to track when your Intelligence was increased. It's just a rules abstraction.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Gauss wrote:

LazarX, and I would have (I did) applied that exact same logic to starting languages. But, as the FAQ stated, that goes up whenever your intelligence goes up.

It also was not stated and yet the FAQ has reversed that bit of logic.

I am not saying you are incorrect, I did not state you get the spells. But, if a nearly identical sequence of logic was reversed by the FAQ might it also stand to reason that the starting spells do not go up as your intelligence does is on shaky logical ground?

FAQs only rule on what they specifically addressed. You do get an additional starting language. You DON"T get any extra spells magically appearing in your starter spell book. Languages you learn over time. Spells you have to learn all at once.


LazarX,

Did you see me state anywhere that the FAQ on Starting Languages applies to Starting Spells?
Answer: No, I did not state that in any post.

What I did state is that the same logic that used to be applied to Starting Languages is also being applied to Starting Spells and that if that logic is shot down for one then it is a question for the other.

That statement is not a 'yes, your starting spells go up' so please stop posting as if I am stating that it is.

Edit:

CRB p17 wrote:
The number of bonus languages your character knows at the start of the game. These are in addition to any starting racial languages and Common. If you have a penalty, you can still read and speak your racial languages unless your Intelligence is lower than 3.
CRB p79 wrote:
A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from his opposed schools, if any; see Arcane Schools) plus three 1st-level spells of his choice. The wizard also selects a number of additional 1st-level spells equal to his Intelligence modifier to add to the spellbook.

It is interesting that the Wizard doesn't even have the "start" statement. Instead it states "begins play" but that is only part of the sentence regarding zero level spells and 3 first level spells. The statement regarding bonus spells due to intelligence is a separate sentence.

So now, we have to analyze if that sentence is even part of the 'begins play' sentence.
If it is, then we have a "RAW" interpretation is that if you begin play at level 10 you can start with more 1st level "bonus" spells than if you begin at level 1 if your intelligence is higher.
If it is not then anytime you have an intelligence increase you gain a new first level spell.

This is on even more shaky ground than the starting bonus languages was before the FAQ. Before the FAQ it was pretty clear that you only got bonus languages at level 1.
The spells section doesn't even have that protection ("starting"). It only has "begins play" and only if that applies to the second sentence (which it may or may not depending on how you read it).


I'm surprised that anyone even cares about this question that much. An extra spell known for a wizard is the equivalent of an extra 50 gp in treasure, and the earliest you are going to see an INT increase is 4th level. Is that 50 gp really making an appreciable difference?


Gauss wrote:

LazarX, and I would have (I did) applied that exact same logic to starting languages. But, as the FAQ stated, that goes up whenever your intelligence goes up.

It also was not stated and yet the FAQ has reversed that bit of logic.

I am not saying you are incorrect, I did not state you get the spells. But, if a nearly identical sequence of logic was reversed by the FAQ might it also stand to reason that the starting spells do not go up as your intelligence does is on shaky logical ground?

Technically speaking, the FAQ doesn't speak of "starting" languages, but only of "bonus" languages. So, it seems to imply that, due to high int bonus via increase, you can select a bonus language. I doesn't ever says you need to select from your starting languages. A bit twisted reasoning, but the only really coherent, imo.


The bonus languages due to INT increase is a ridiculous rule not at all based in reality of time needed to learn a language.... But that is a separate debate.

Here I agree with Gauss. As INT bumps allow choosing new bonus languages, the same logic can and SHOULD be applied to bonus 1st level spells.

In the end, it isn't game breaking allowing them an extra 1st level spell known. As someone else pointed out - they can just buy a scroll and learn it.

I'd argue that allowing instant bonus languages is more game breaking (lvl 7 wizard doesn't know draconic - DING lvl 8 - I now know draconic and can read those inscriptions with ease!)

EDIT: More fodder for Gauss' opinion from none other than James Jacobs:

"All bonuses are retroactive when an ability score increases, be they bonuses to damage, to skill ranks, to hit points, to saves, to skill checks... all of them. Skill ranks not being retroactive are a 3.5 convention we specifically removed from the game because it was a weird exception to the rule, and since now there are no exceptions to this rule, there's no need to specifically state that skill ranks are retroactively granted if your Intelligence goes up."
[James Jacobs]


For what it's worth, here's JJ's word on the subject (emphasis mine):

Quote:


All bonuses are retroactive when an ability score increases, be they bonuses to damage, to skill ranks, to hit points, to saves, to skill checks... all of them. Skill ranks not being retroactive are a 3.5 convention we specifically removed from the game because it was a weird exception to the rule, and since now there are no exceptions to this rule, there's no need to specifically state that skill ranks are retroactively granted if your Intelligence goes up.


WOW - we found that at the same time ...


hoborider wrote:


I'd argue that allowing instant bonus languages is more game breaking (lvl 7 wizard doesn't know draconic - DING lvl 8 - I now know draconic and can read those inscriptions with ease!)

This isn't any more weird or game breaking than a character hitting a new level and dumping 6 skill ranks in a Kn (x) skill where they previously had none. Yesterday they knew almost nothing of the subject, today they are now an expert on it?


It's only game breaking if you insist on drawing attention to it. I know lots of things that don't come up in everyday conversation, possibly including skills you've never seen ("Really, Orfamay, I didn't know that you could play the flute!"), languages you've never heard me speak ("Orfamay, where did you learn how to read modern Greek?"), and obscure knowledge I've not mentioned to you before ("How do you know the street layout of Istanbul, Orfamay?")

I may well have spoken fluent Draconic or been able to juggle like a circus performer all along and just never mentioned it before.


Yep...those points exactly illustrate my point. Skills are silly in pathfinder. Again separate debate ... Knowledge local...you were born and raised in Sandpoint and have knowledge local...that doesn't give you ANY Insight or knowledge of Minkai or River Kingdoms...


hoborider wrote:

Yep...those points exactly illustrate my point. Skills are silly in pathfinder.

They're only silly if you insist on making them so. Just because someone was raised in Sandpoint doesn't mean that they didn't listen to stories told by bards from the River Kingdoms. A friend of mine has a map on his wall of the layout of Londonderry, NI. I don't think he's set foot in Europe in his life, but he knows a surprising amount about how to get around Londonderry from that silly little Christmas gift.

And, of course, the idea that he's never set foot in Europe may be wrong. He might have spent two years backpacking across Ireland and I just don't know, because I've never asked him.


hoborider wrote:


I'd argue that allowing instant bonus languages is more game breaking (lvl 7 wizard doesn't know draconic - DING lvl 8 - I now know draconic and can read those inscriptions with ease!)

Curious. You seem to find it gamebreaking while you could, in theory hit level 8, gain a +1 mod to int, and spent 8 ranks in linguistic, allowing you to instantly learn 8 languages at your totally free choice. I don't see it gamebreaking.


Blackstorm wrote:
hoborider wrote:


I'd argue that allowing instant bonus languages is more game breaking (lvl 7 wizard doesn't know draconic - DING lvl 8 - I now know draconic and can read those inscriptions with ease!)
Curious. You seem to find it gamebreaking while you could, in theory hit level 8, gain a +1 mod to int, and spent 8 ranks in linguistic, allowing you to instantly learn 8 languages at your totally free choice. I don't see it gamebreaking.

I don't believe hoborider was saying it was gamebreaking, just more so than an extra first level spell.


hoborider wrote:

Yep...those points exactly illustrate my point. Skills are silly in pathfinder. Again separate debate ... Knowledge local...you were born and raised in Sandpoint and have knowledge local...that doesn't give you ANY Insight or knowledge of Minkai or River Kingdoms...

Only if you insist that the acquisition of a language or skill is an instantaneous change at level up and not a progressive learning over time which in game mechanics is represented that at level up you finally have sufficient mastery of it to make it usable knowledge.

Speaking of languages for example, I now a smattering of Zulu words, but can't by any stretch speak or read the language. Give me a short sentence of the right type that happens to be the words I am familiar with and I could make a good guess at its meaning, but in general I can't read a Zulu sentence or paragraph. Game mechanics however don't get into that kind of nitty gritty specificity, nor should they. But the level up process simply represents that enough study has been done in the given language to now be able to use the language in general to both speak read and write in the language.

None of that really makes the mechanics of it silly, it simply makes the mechanics of it workable as a very rough real world simulation.

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