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From discussions with a few people, I would like to make a campaign where magic items are once again special. Or at least more so than they are in the standard PF commodity magic mart campaigns.
We’ve also been talking ways to make considered tactics a bit more rewarded. Something other than build a glass cannon and go full offense. So healing, removal, and raising will be a bit more difficult.
If you give Wizard PC a +2 to his spell DC and give Fighter NPC a +2 to his saves, the net change is pretty much zero.
If you give Fighter PC a +1 to hit and damage and Sorcerer NPC a +1 to his AC and a +2 to his Con score, the net change is very nearly nil.
The only place it makes a difference is in monsters where you aren't adjusting their stats, bonuses, and abilities or things with a set DC (like poisons). So just don't use as powerful of monsters. That is really the only change that I have found to be necessary.
Some limited (low and mid level) play testing has supported this position. This campaign would test it more extensively. This campaign would proceed with the above assumptions.
- No (or at least very few) standard +X magic items. You can get a Cloak of the Mantas that lets you swim like a ray but not +2 on all saves. You could have someone make a halberd that adds d6 fire damage but not a +2 halberd.
- Not sure if should allow magic weapon, greater magic weapon, magic vestment, etc... type spells to function normally or not.
- Consumable magic items like scrolls, wands, potions, etc… cost is the same as standard PF. Except as noted below.
- Permanent (not charged or single use) magic items cost x4 the book cost.
- Can make consumable magic gear. Charges 10. Can be activated by any wielder/user/wearer. Cost would be the same as the permanent version in the PF books. So a Ghost Touch shield would cost 9k, have 10 charges and last 15 hours per charge (CL 15 and an hour each CL).
- Superior non-magical items with roughly double the effect of masterwork items are available but very expensive.
- Only superior items can be permanently enchanted. But you don’t have to give a +1 bonus before anything else since +1 bonuses do not exist.
- Masterwork and special materials are standard cost, but pretty easy to find.
- Crafting magic items requires a lab and dedicated time. Can’t do it in ½ hour increments while on watch in the wilderness. {I don’t really think baseline PF works like this, but many do. So I’m specifically stating that it does not for this campaign.}
- No magic item shops. If you want something, you have to find it or convince someone to make it for you (probably in exchange for X favors). Harder to get someone to make an offensive rather than a defensive item. You might use it against him and/or he might get in trouble for providing it if you kill someone important.
- There will be merchants that sell low level consumable items. Careful. Some are shysters trying to sell junk. Mostly only defensive or utility items. Offensive items would probably be black (or at least gray) market only.
- Some churches will have a collection of removal/cure/healing consumables for sale to their clergy. Purchase will be more difficult for non-members.
- Cure X Wounds spells (and spell completion items) require a heal skill check equal to the damage healed. Healing will not be greater than the heal skill check result.
- Condition removal and restoration spells (and spell completion items) require a caster level check equal to the original save DC. Each failure will increase the DC by 1 (cumulative) for a retry.
- Raise dead and resurrection really need something, but not sure what. Maybe a table with death due to X having a DC of Y. Each failure will increase the DC by 1 (cumulative) for a retry.
These are for part of the story I have planned that the PC’s may or may not be able to eventually overcome. This effect will probably be limited to the continent where the campaign takes place, but the players won’t know that at first. Hoever, if I do limit it to just the one continent, the effects will be even stronger near the source locus.
- Spells that effect time or have extra-dimensional effects are 2 levels higher, the save DC is 2 lower, the duration and range/area is cut in half, and the casting time is increased (at least full round casting time). Slow, hasted, teleport, create pit, rope trick, summon X, etc… So Slow would be a 5th level spell, the duration would be 1 round for each 2 caster levels, and the save DC would be -2 from other 5th level spells.
- Consumable magic items with time or extra-dimensional effects cost x5 book cost.
- Permanent magic items with time or extra-dimensional effects cost x10 book cost.
- Feats or class abilities with time or extra-dimensional effects will have to be worked on between player and GM.
So…
Suggestions? Modifications? Other ideas? Would you want to participate in this?
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I think the only way to make magic items special is to get new players that have never played the game before.
The first +1 weapon you find is special. The second isn't, no matter how many hoops the GM makes you jump through.
Edit: and by "first" I mean the first one you find as a player, ever. If you've found one in a computer game, that also counts. Because if you find another one in a tabletop game, it'll just be "oh, a thingy that gives a bonus to a thingy."
I have been considering a similar sort of thing for a while now and I think all of your bullet pointed rules look great!
I say let magic weapon spells work normally, I like the idea of lower level spells (magic weapon, bull's strength, mage armor, etc.) still being useful at high levels as they have not been replaced by permanent magic items.
The only point I disagree with is
So just don't use as powerful of monsters.
I really like using powerful monsters as a DM and I like fighting them as a player so I would rather modify the characters abilities so that they can fight such monsters rather than not include them. But that's a personal preference and by no means a universal truth. As a player I would still enjoy this sort of world.
I have been considering a similar sort of thing for a while now and I think all of your bullet pointed rules look great!
I say let magic weapon spells work normally, I like the idea of lower level spells (magic weapon, bull's strength, mage armor, etc.) still being useful at high levels as they have not been replaced by permanent magic items.
The only point I disagree with is
So just don't use as powerful of monsters.I really like using powerful monsters as a DM and I like fighting them as a player so I would rather modify the characters abilities so that they can fight such monsters rather than not include them. But that's a personal preference and by no means a universal truth. As a player I would still enjoy this sort of world.They don't necessarily need either magic items or extreme abilities to fight powerful monsters, provided they use good planning and creative tactics. (It might take a bit to get some players to realize they can do things that aren't spelled out in the rules, though.)
True, in fact I can see that being a fun campaign to play. The party could spend many sessions gathering supplies and information in preparation for fighting a great beast.
That could be a good quest line or two for Kydeem's world:
To fight the dragon you must infiltrate the dragon cult to find out when the dragon sleeps, venture into the death swamp to make an anti-fire balm out of demons 'shrooms (get some fire resistance), Venture into the ancient ruin to learn a spell which will prevent the dragon from taking flight, etc.
Maybe remove spells that raise the dead entirely, except those used to create undead. Coming back from the dead is a unique event requiring a quest by the rest of the party into the underworld, or direct negotiation with a deity (whose default answer is "no"), or something equally momentous.
I considered that, but I got too much push back. Almost none of my potential players wanted to play in one where it was almost impossible to get raised. They were ok with the idea of it being more difficult though.
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So just don't use as powerful of monsters.I really like using powerful monsters as a DM and I like fighting them as a player so I would rather modify the characters abilities so that they can fight such monsters rather than not include them. But that's a personal preference and by no means a universal truth. As a player I would still enjoy this sort of world.
They will still be fighting very challenging powerful monsters. Just it may be that kyton will be sufficiently tough rather than having to have a pit fiend with class levels.
And they may have to think about it, rather than just charge full attack for 57347 damage.
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That could be a good quest line or two for Kydeem's world:
To fight the dragon you must infiltrate the dragon cult to find out when the dragon sleeps, venture into the death swamp to make an anti-fire balm out of demons 'shrooms (get some fire resistance), Venture into the ancient ruin to learn a spell which will prevent the dragon from taking flight, etc.
Yep, those are good ideas for sub-plots.
The over arching plot is going to be figuring out why dimensional and time magic doesn't work the way the old books say it did for their ancestors. Then maybe seeing if the want to or can fix it. I won't put in here why, but I'll give the hint that gods are involved.
Sooo, play a spellcaster, got it.
Not necessarily. Some people (myself included sometimes) like to run martials in low magic item campaigns. Then my success/failure is because of my tactics and build choices. Not just because I happened to find/buy the mondo uber weapon so I can't lose.
Sooo, play a spellcaster, got it.What?! You were seriously considering ever playing a non-spellcaster - in any campaign!? All your friends are going to play spellcasters! And they will move your cheese!I actually prefer non-spellcasters.
To be honest, I completely resonate with the OP on his desire to succeed/fail based on Build and Tactics rather than Magical Bling. The problem, as I see it, is that taking away the magic items without offering something significant in return is merely widening the gap.
Using weaker monsters? Save or Suck/Die is going to become FAR more powerful. Heck, half of the gap between a Martial PC and Level Appropriate Summon Monster Spells is the equipment the Martial has.
The funny thing about this is if you compare it to all the other threads where people go on and on about how you have to give all the casters a bunch of free abilities to make up for all the gear they no longer have. Summon monster spells would be in the category of dimensional effects that are already modified.
It will not surprise me at all if I were to find I would need to adjust some other things along the way. One of the things I'm still considering is giving PC's with no magical abilities (no SU's or SLA's, only Ex's) a +1/5 levels to save vs magical effects. Not yet sure if it is needed or not.
Although I doubt the SoD spells will be as crippling as many people suggest. Yes, the fighter does not have his +3 Cloak of Resistance. But neither does the wizard have his headband of intellect or rod persistence.
My playing around with some mock combats show it mostly tends to cancel out.