Working on character generation for a new campaign and I need some help on this (admittedly sub-optimal) build. Long story short the character was a slave of some privilege (for a slave) and was regularly assaulted by other slaves, not allowed to carry weapons they got skilled with hand-to-hand and improvised weaponry.
So my question is are there any traits, tricks, or archetypes that would let me get both Improved Unarmed Strike and Catch off Guard at 1st level as an Elf?
Stats at the moment are (after modifiers):
STR - 16
DEX - 14
CON - 14
INT - 18
WIS - 8
CHA - 7
Thinking of dropping Str down to bump up Wis, but I do like the idea of the character's upbringing negatively impacting their perceptions.
Don't know what you're talking about. Alchemists don't get tricks. And there is no archetype that grants Catch off-Guard or Improved Unarmed Stike. So you would have to pick both feats separately, which can't be done as an elf at first level.
You seem to want to play a Monk, not an Alchemist. Since the short story of your character only focuses on hand-to-hand combat and nothing about alchemy. How would a slave be trained in alchemical arts anyways?
Just switch INT and WIS and you'll be a sub-optimal Monk with both those feats at level 1.
Alchemists don't brawl, they either lob bombs or bite&claw. If they brawl, they're not even sub-optimal.
Are you talking about a Brawler/Alchemist Multiclass PC?
Alchemists do get Throw Anything for free so you can use improvised thrown weapons at first level.
Internal Alchemist can take some monk feats in place of discoveries, but they give up throw anything. Overall, it's a pretty mediocre archetype.
What materials are you permitted? Because if you can use 3rd party material, one level of talented monk from rogue genius games would get you proficiency with both unarmed strikes and improvised weapons in addition to the ability to flurry with either if you choose the correct talents and edges.
Kolokotroni wrote: What materials are you permitted? Because if you can use 3rd party material, one level of talented monk from rogue genius games would get you proficiency with both unarmed strikes and improvised weapons in addition to the ability to flurry with either if you choose the correct talents and edges.
A one level dip into Monk of the Empty Hand can do the same thing without using 3rd party.
Alchemist combines well into melee character builds. You become sort of a pro athlete that's juicing.
If you are a Beastmorph alchemist or if you take Tentacle, you get natural attacks.
A Tentacle counts as a Natural Attack for feats such as Feral Combat Training and Improved Natural Attack. You can do things like use your tentacle for the Attack of Opportunity you get from Snake Fang or Vicious Stomp, and then use your Grab Ability to achieve a Grapple. If you have Armor Spikes, you get bonus damage. If you have Sneak Attack, you get precision damage for the spikes AND for the tentacle. You'd also get the bonus applied again if you have Power Attack or a high ST bonus, or an enhancement bonus on the spikes.
Again, I don't see how a slave could grow tentacles by him self. But if you want to go the melee route with Alchemist, pick Feral Mutagen at level 2.
And I probably should tell you that you are going with a 26-point build, don't think that's allowed in PFS.
Imbicatus wrote: Kolokotroni wrote: What materials are you permitted? Because if you can use 3rd party material, one level of talented monk from rogue genius games would get you proficiency with both unarmed strikes and improvised weapons in addition to the ability to flurry with either if you choose the correct talents and edges.
A one level dip into Monk of the Empty Hand can do the same thing without using 3rd party. True, I was thinking of if you wanted to progress in it. As the talented monk lets any weapon group you choose to scale the way a monks unarmed damage does. Which would be kind of cool I think if you wanted to focus on improvised weapons.
I believe there is a trait in the Ultimate Campaign that eliminates Improvised Weapon penalties from a single item, if it helps.
Rub-Eta wrote: Don't know what you're talking about. Alchemists don't get tricks. And there is no archetype that grants Catch off-Guard or Improved Unarmed Stike. So you would have to pick both feats separately, which can't be done as an elf at first level. Figured this was the case. As far as tricks what I meant were creative bends, twists, or stretches of the rules that might allow me to pull it off without being wholly outside them.
Rub-Eta wrote: You seem to want to play a Monk, not an Alchemist. Since the short story of your character only focuses on hand-to-hand combat and nothing about alchemy. How would a slave be trained in alchemical arts anyways?
Just switch INT and WIS and you'll be a sub-optimal Monk with both those feats at level 1.
Alchemists don't brawl, they either lob bombs or bite&claw. If they brawl, they're not even sub-optimal.
Longer version (Full draft not finalized), my friend announced that after he got back from vacation he wanted to run a game, and suggested anyone interested could get their characters ready in the mean time. I decided to play an Alchemist and rolled Circumstances of Birth from Ultimate Campaign's Background Generator (I like to use it for starting points) and got Born into Bondage.
So from there I came up with the idea of the character as a slave, turned test subject, turned assistant, since the idea of a slave teaching themself alchemy without being noticed seemed far fetched, so I went with the idea that they were exposed to alchemy (as a test subject) and showed understanding/interest and was upgraded to assistant (this is why I like the Elf because then this shift in position comes over decades not years or months).
Now we get to the brawler part, as a privileged slave they got a lot of hate from those who weren't, and would often have to defend themself without access to weapons (privileged or not still a slave). Which is where hand to hand and improvised weapons come in.
It's more about establishing elements from the character's past than building towards their future, which is why I'm looking for a way to get it by 1st level. I'm also putting a rank in Profession (Miner) or some other form of manual labour for this purpose. The plan is primarily bomber but able to handle some melee if/when enemies get too close.
Kolokotroni wrote: What materials are you permitted?
Only books my friend owns or players are willing to donate for the duration of the campaign. No 3rd party stuff that I'm aware of though one of the other players might throw something in.
So Ultimate Magic, Combat, and Campaign, Advanced Player's and Race Guides, CRB, and I suppose anything I could pull out of Bestiaries 1 and 2 (that I know of for certain)
Rub-Eta wrote:
And I probably should tell you that you are going with a 26-point build, don't think that's allowed in PFS.
Well aware :), my friend who's GMing uses a 75 point buy system, all attributes start at 0 and it's 1 for 1 (so you can have 6 10's and still have 15 points left). Though I am looking at making a PFS friendly version but doubt it.
EvilPaladin wrote: I believe there is a trait in the Ultimate Campaign that eliminates Improvised Weapon penalties from a single item, if it helps. This could work, I'll skim the combat traits again (assuming it's there) and keep it in mind if I decide to go with the idea of the character being a general labourer of some kind before getting into the alchemy thing for a shovel or other tool that would have been close at hand.
Vivisectionist seems to be what you want.
You may have to take a dip in another class to get exactly what you want, but it should be doable.
What races are allowed?
blackbloodtroll wrote: Vivisectionist seems to be what you want.
You may have to take a dip in another class to get exactly what you want, but it should be doable.
What races are allowed?
Was considering Vivisectionist, works best given the test subject angle, but not sure if I want to give up bombs. If I did any recommendations for different stats? Drop INT for higher STR or CON
Core races and any under 8rp allowed
Dannorn wrote: blackbloodtroll wrote: Vivisectionist seems to be what you want.
You may have to take a dip in another class to get exactly what you want, but it should be doable.
What races are allowed?
Was considering Vivisectionist, works best given the test subject angle, but not sure if I want to give up bombs. If I did any recommendations for different stats? Drop INT for higher STR or CON
Core races and any under 8rp allowed Well, the Half-Orc is 8rp, and the rest of the core races are higher.
Now, the Lizardfolk is 8rp, and makes a great Brawler.
They have no penalty to anything, and start with Natural Armor, and 3 Natural Attacks.
You can also go with the favored exotic slave route.
Here are Two Traits that might be of interest.
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Well, the Half-Orc is 8rp, and the rest of the core races are higher.
Now, the Lizardfolk is 8rp, and makes a great Brawler.
They have no penalty to anything, and start with Natural Armor, and 3 Natural Attacks.
You can also go with the favored exotic slave route.
I'll definitely give this some consideration, I'm attached to the Elf mainly because of the idea of going from slave labourer to alchemical assistant taking decades rather than years. It also gives me a way to not make them a completely hateful bastard because I realized several layers in to this backstory that any rational being would hold nothing but loathing for the downtrodden after a lifetime of being assaulted by them for daring to improve their lot. As an Elf most of their tormentors are dying or dead which allows the chance to put things in perspective.
I had originally planned on playing them Lawful Evil (evil in the sense they lack compassion, are largely self centered, sickened by the cries of the downtrodden for rescue, and somewhat sadistic) but decided to tone it down to Lawful Neutral because unfortunately one of the guys is running a Paladin, and they're the type who starts every encounter with:
Pal: I use Detect Evil on X.
GM: [sigh] you detect evil.
Pal: I draw my sword and attack X.
GM: [facepalm] Roll initiative guys.
Us: Pal we will murder you in your sleep.
Which really sucks because the GM's a big fan of morally grey campaigns where just because a guy has an E in their alignment doesn't mean they're a Bad Guy, so he wouldn't have swatted down an Evil PC.
Also the racial favoured class bonus is pretty good for filling out the Formula Book.
EvilPaladin wrote: Here are Two Traits that might be of interest. Awesome, thanks. Found Surprise Weapon in Ultimate Campaign but Rough and Ready works much better (improvised weapons would have been tools ready at hand). Though the more I think of it he wouldn't have been a labourer when he was assaulted for having better standing, probably wouldn't even be housed with the other labourers (likely staying with house servants and the like). So maybe Surprise Weapon to demonstrate a developed comfort with improvised weapons but at a later point in his life and in a place and from people he wouldn't expect.
Keeping Improved Unarmed Strike though going more with the idea he was a scrapper growing up among half-orc, human, and dwarf slaves who thought the "puny elf" would be an easy victim to take out their frustrations on.
Also thinking of going with the idea that their master was a Vivisectionist trying to reverse the effects of Torturous Transformation to grant humanoids bestial features. My character was the first to survive the procedures and through the master's work, and some alchemical experimentation of their own, my character became a Beastmorph Alchemist.
With this in mind I'm thinking a 2-4 point drop in Int, he's not a brilliant protege he's a science experiment, and pumping those into Wis (get it at least 10) and bumping Con or Str, any recommendations?
I see WIS as a dumpable stat here (his life experiences might be limited due to confinement to the life of a slave), and technically alchemists only need a 16 INT to max their extracts, but INT plays a big part in the other class features, bombs, crafting, poisoning, etc. So I would not go below 16, personally.
If you go INT > DEX > CON > STR > CHA > WIS (or WIS > CHA), you can grab weapon finesse as a feat and apply DEX to hit on your unarmed attacks (Cast Stone Fist for instant deadly strikes), an amulet of mighty fists (agile) costs 4000gp, (16000gp gets you agile and the +1 to all natural attacks). DEX also helps with AC, and since you are a "Puny Elf" it might fit that you would dodge rather than take a hit.
Maybe take weapon focus (heavy book) or (fragile alembic) or (Shiv) as your preferred weapons at hand, tools of your trade and all that.
Hmm, hadn't considered the Dex build. I kept the puny elf in quotations because that's how his attackers thought of him, but as I work on the character I'm liking the idea of them constantly being underestimated. Assailants in their youth, their master in experimentation, and so on.
Thinking stat wise trying
Elf (After modifiers)
Str - 16
Dex - 14
Con - 16
Int - 16
Wis - 8
Cha - 7
Though maybe drop Con to 14 and get Wis up. I'm concerned because Alchemists get horrible Will saves and the way I'm looking at going with this having a Large, Four Armed, Clawed monstrosity turning on the party mid-fight is not a good time for anyone.
Also on the subject with Feral Mutagen I get a Bite and two Claws as natural attacks, now does that work as all 3 at BAB, a Bite or two Claws, or a Bite or one Claw? Also with the Beastmorph mutagen abilities is Feral Mutagen even worth taking?
The Elf's Con penalty really hurts the build.
Also, they are notoriously obtuse, and are considered terrible slaves.
That penalty to Con would also represent a creature more prone to fatigue.
Another option is the Duergar.
They are long-lived, and their society highly advocates the idea, that life is an endless toil.
The Enlarge Person/Invisibility and the immunity to poison are fitting boons.
That actually works really well. So with current stat set up after modifiers I'm looking at
Str - 16
Dex - 12
Con - 20
Int - 14
Wis - 10
Cha - 3
So if I drop Con down to 16 I can get Int up to 16 (though I could just use 8th and 12th attribute bonuses to get Int up for the higher extracts) and Dex up to 14. Not hugely loving that Cha of 3 though, but I'd have to use all the points I get from dropping Con to bring it back to 7 and I can't help but feel Int and Dex are more important.
Throw me in as another proponent of the Lizardfolk, some of my fave Hyde characters. Beast Vivi is probably the way to go, although I'd have to know all materials you've got open to you to suggest anything more complex.
How would the brawling armor property interact with this? I read that, and I'm not sure it would apply to bites and claw attacks and such.
If you used unarmed strike or a cestus or something I think it would work.
That looks decent.
The Duergar can select the Relentless alternate racial trait.
Also, they can can take any Dwarf feat, or Dwarf archetype, and select any Dwarf Favored class bonus.
The immunity to poison works great with the Alchemist, and allows you to basically walk around covered in poison.
Also, the Vivisectionist archetype stacks with the Beastmorph archetype, which works well.
Using Shadowcloy, and a Darklight Lantern can give you tactical advantage, along with Oil of Darkness.
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