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I looked at the Stonelord Paladin Racial Archtype in the Advanced Race Guide. They are throw back from the Dwarven Defender Prestige Class from the DMG (v 3.5). I thought I would try the class out for Pathfinder Society Play. Here is my build. I am playing generic Dwarf (no alternative racial features). The 20 point buy is arranged as follows.
STR 16
DEX 10
CON 16
WIS 12
INT 8
CHA 13
Faction: Silver Crusade
Traits: Resilient, Beneficial Touch (Silver Crusade Faction).
Preferred Weapon: Dwarven Longhammer
I planning this character as a debuffing tank who breaks the enemy's weapons and armor.
My proposed feat progession is as follows:
1st level: Fey Foundling
3rd level: Power Attack Attack
5th level: Improved Sunder
7th level: Lunge
9th level: Extra Lay on Hands
Is this a sound build? Your thoughts are appreciated.
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Cha 13 is more than you need, and costing more than it's worth. A 12 is the highest you should go as a Stonelord. Wis is also mostly superfluous (you get a Good Will Save even sans Paladin bonuses), while Int and Dex aren't.
I'd go with this stat array instead:
Str 16
Dex 12
Con 16
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 12
I might even drop Cha to 11 and raise Int to 12, then raise Cha at 4th level.
Weapons and Feats are solid.
Try the Greater Mercy feat, it really ups your tanking abilities and is probably the most valuable feat I've ever taken as a paladin.
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My advice is not to play a stonelord because it's a trap.
Unlike barbarians, stonelords/stalwarts doesn't get any love from equipment lists boosting rounds of Defensive Stance or rage powers. You trade bonus to attack evil (the most common opponent in the game) to bonus attacking constructs. Lack of a smite bonus to AC as well as rage will severely hamper AC relatively. Lack of Divine Grace means sacking wisdom will actually hurt you -- and you'll start thinking about shoring up with Steel Soul in a class with threadbare feat slots. Unlike the heavy armor paladin, you'll be eating max damage from AoE pretty much all the time.
If you have to move so much as one inch, you lose your Defensive Stance -- so you're seriously constrained by encounter environment and the reliability of your allies (always iffy in PFS) to create battlefield "funnels" for you to plug up.
Yes, you get a critter...one without any love in all the splatbooks regards equipment. (And, per PFS nixing the ape-companions-with-swords schtick druids once exploited, I'm just guessing that giving weaponry to smarter-than-average elementals will be similarly verboten.) Unlike a mount, you can't ride it and deflect attacks via Mounted Combat and Indomitable Mount. ...so it's a sidekick with sub-20 armor class which you can't effectively buy armor for (because earthgliding will leave it behind, and also because the elemental keeps increasing in size). IOW, it's going to croak on the other side of the monster you're both flanking -- and you lose your stance if you move to LoH.
Summation: I do not like this heavily self-nerfing archetype, and consider it greatly suboptimal to not only CRB fighter (where dwarves really shine) but also CRB paladin -- where even the less ideal dwarf would still significatly outperform a stonelord versus the PFS palette of adversaries.
Nail in the coffin: at 11th, the stonelord forfeits Aura of Justice (the best whole-party boon in the game) for applying the bane property on attacks to constructs -- something he could have bought with cash five levels ago, or instead have been Speed *six* levels earlier as a CRB paladin who took Weapon Bond.
My advice is not to play a stonelord because it's a trap.
Unlike barbarians, stonelords/stalwarts doesn't get any love from equipment lists boosting rounds of Defensive Stance or rage powers. You trade bonus to attack evil (the most common opponent in the game) to bonus attacking constructs. Lack of a smite bonus to AC as well as rage will severely hamper AC relatively. Lack of Divine Grace means sacking wisdom will actually hurt you -- and you'll start thinking about shoring up with Steel Soul in a class with threadbare feat slots. Unlike the heavy armor paladin, you'll be eating max damage from AoE pretty much all the time.
If you have to move so much as one inch, you lose your Defensive Stance -- so you're seriously constrained by encounter environment and the reliability of your allies (always iffy in PFS) to create battlefield "funnels" for you to plug up.
Yes, you get a critter...one without any love in all the splatbooks regards equipment. (And, per PFS nixing the ape-companions-with-swords schtick druids once exploited, I'm just guessing that giving weaponry to smarter-than-average elementals will be similarly verboten.) Unlike a mount, you can't ride it and deflect attacks via Mounted Combat and Indomitable Mount. ...so it's a sidekick with sub-20 armor class which you can't effectively buy armor for (because earthgliding will leave it behind, and also because the elemental keeps increasing in size). IOW, it's going to croak on the other side of the monster you're both flanking -- and you lose your stance if you move to LoH.
Summation: I do not like this heavily self-nerfing archetype, and consider it greatly suboptimal to not only CRB fighter (where dwarves really shine) but also CRB paladin -- where even the less ideal dwarf would still significatly outperform a stonelord versus the PFS palette of adversaries.
Nail in the coffin: at 11th, the stonelord forfeits Aura of Justice (the best whole-party boon in the game) for applying the bane on attacks to constructs -- something he could have bought with cash five levels ago, or instead have been Speed *six* levels earlier as a CRB paladin who took Weapon Bond.
I shall disagree. The lack of smite evil bonus to AC will be a problem? The class get NA and a heavy DR. and a bonus to AC while in Stance. They cant smite evil? They can destroy the equipment of anybody (and not just evil). You move and lose defensive stance? Lay on Hand to cure the fatigue, move and return in your stance after. You loose your mount? Well, not like it's really usefull in a dungeon, and the Elemental is far more usefull in cramped situation (and yes, you cant use mounted combat... but if you want to do a Dwarf Pally, will you take a mount? ) And problem in the will area? It's still a class with high will save, and the dwarf will have a better time boosting wisdom than charisma...And in defensive style, he can reroll one will save...
So no, it's not a trap. This class got some really good point and will do a better job than a normal pally if you want to go Dwarf, particularly against neutral foes (he can attack neutral with all his power, while the paladin... is gonna look like a weak fighter...
For the original question: I wouldn't go with the longhammer. Reach is good, but while in stance you will not be able to ''take five foot step to attack'' the creature in contact with you. It can be really pborlematics... So I would go with a normal weapon (great axe, for example) and throwing weapon for far foes (you still add your strengh bonus).
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Stonelord isn't a trap. It's actually quite good. You just have to treat it as a completely separate class than paladin.
It has no need for CHA at all, you should dump it and raise wis or dex. You don't have divine grace or spells,so you should raise your saves via stats.
Use you one mercy to remove fatigue. This allows you to stave cycle if you need to move.
The companion is weak, but it has earth glide. It can hang out in safety in the ground and attack from below. It's not great, but it's something do do until lit grows.
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I shall disagree. The lack of smite evil bonus to AC will be a problem? The class get NA and a heavy DR. and a bonus to AC while in Stance.Which you'll very seldom get to enjoy in PFS save for those rare tunnel fights. Otherwise: queue all those hecklers laughing about fighters who can't move fast enough to deal with the threats that ignore them to go after the squishes...and this guy's class feature won't kick in unless he chooses NOT to move. And so long as some of your opponents would otherwise be smiteable, then the Stonelord will get hit more often.
They cant smite evil? They can destroy the equipment of anybody (and not just evil).
If you're referring to Stonestrike (the replacement for Smite), that's for ONE SINGLE ROUND PER DAY. If you're referring to Stonebane, you're waiting until 11th -- which is pretty much your entire career in PFS.
Meanwhile, regular paladins are picking a target as their smite buddy, and it doesn't matter how many rounds it takes. At 5th they have two a day. Constructs? Adamantine only costs money.
You loose your mount? Well, not like it's really usefull in a dungeon, and the Elemental is far more usefull in cramped situation (and yes, you cant use mounted combat... but if you want to do a Dwarf Pally, will you take a mount? )Let's see, I have a racial movement penalty and Boots of Speed run twelve grand -- but a horse costs me nadda and let's me go two-and-half-times as fast, get extra attacks (the "Horse? Sit on 'em!" grapple-check gimmick never gets old) and an elevation bonus to attack? And I can summon the thing after going past the annoying BS obstacle the mod throws up at the beginning to keep companions out? ...that's a very attractive deal.
And problem in the will area? It's still a class with high will save, and the dwarf will have a better time boosting wisdom than charisma...Yes. Pamper the paladin's classic dump-stat, and drive yourself MAD.
And in defensive style, he can reroll one will save...Which a dwarf CRB paladin would seldom fail in the first place, so that's a wash.
So no, it's not a trap. This class got some really good point and will do a better job than a normal pally if you want to go Dwarf, particularly against neutral foes (he can attack neutral with all his power, while the paladin... is gonna look like a weak fighter.
A regular paladin, if a dwarf, will get right in its face and tank away. His probable CHA-2 behind a human (16 vs 20 at 5th w/item in PFS) is offset by racial bonuses as far as saves go. So aside from losing out on attack-bonus while smiting and hard Diplomacy checks, a dwarf CRB pally isn't missing out on much that a stonelord gets in ideal circumstances prior to 12th level.
-- Phase Strike, of course, being da shizzits.
But waiting until 12th to get it in PFS is just a deal-killer.
For the original question: I wouldn't go with the longhammer. Reach is good, but while in stance you will not be able to ''take five foot step to attack'' the creature in contact with you. It can be really pborlematics... So I would go with a normal weapon (great axe, for example) and throwing weapon for far foes (you still add your strengh bonus).
A class whose primary gimmick requires them to be immobile in melee should not use a reach-weapon?
Uhm.... *No*
If a baddie crowds inside, that's what armor spikes, are for. Or that secondary weapon you could Quick Draw and full-attack with.
Additionally, you'd be eschewing the opportunity for 4d6 Vital Strikes (or 4d6 while Spirited Charging, if that route gone), not to mention the AoOs granted by the Longhammer.
-- If you're immobile, you'd definitely want to be Enlarged for 20' reach (also fueling 6d6 Vital Strikes).
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[If you're referring to Stonestrike (the replacement for Smite), that's for ONE SINGLE ROUND PER DAY.
Actually, it's once per day per level.
You loose your mount? Well, not like it's really usefull in a dungeon, and the Elemental is far more usefull in cramped situation (and yes, you cant use mounted combat... but if you want to do a Dwarf Pally, will you take a mount? )
Let's see, I have a racial movement penalty and Boots of Speed run twelve grand -- but a horse costs me nadda and let's me go two-and-half-times as fast, get extra attacks (the "Horse? Sit on 'em!" grapple-check gimmick never gets old) and an elevation bonus to attack? And I can summon the thing after going past the annoying BS obstacle the mod throws up at the beginning to keep companions out? ...that's a very attractive deal.
Mount is nice, but it's still of limited use in a dungeon. doubly so in PFS scenarios.
And problem in the will area? It's still a class with high will save, and the dwarf will have a better time boosting wisdom than charisma...
Yes. Pamper the paladin's classic dump-stat, and drive yourself MAD.
Not really. you can dump your CHA to 5. The only thing you can use it for is extra uses of lay on hands, which aren't that necessary.
For the original question: I wouldn't go with the longhammer. Reach is good, but while in stance you will not be able to ''take five foot step to attack'' the creature in contact with you. It can be really pborlematics... So I would go with a normal weapon (great axe, for example) and throwing weapon for far foes (you still add your strengh bonus).
A class whose primary gimmick requires them to be immobile in melee should not use a reach-weapon?
Uhm.... *No*
If a baddie crowds inside, that's what armor spikes, are for. Or that secondary weapon you could Quick Draw and full-attack with.
Additionally, you'd be eschewing the opportunity for 4d6 Vital Strikes (or 4d6 while Spirited Charging, if that route gone), not to mention the AoOs granted by the Longhammer.
-- If you're immobile, you'd definitely want to be Enlarged for 20' reach (also fueling 6d6 Vital Strikes).
I agree with you about the reach weapon. Longhammer is great, and combine it with the Dwarven Boulder Helmet for attacks vs adjacent foes.
Which you'll very seldom get to enjoy in PFS save for those rare tunnel fights. Otherwise: queue all those hecklers laughing about fighters who can't move fast enough to deal with the threats that ignore them to go after the squishes...and this guy's class feature won't kick in unless he chooses NOT to move. And so long as some of your opponents would otherwise be smiteable, then the Stonelord will get hit more often
No, for two reason. First: the Stonelord can move, even when he is using his stance. With his lay on hand, he can cure his fatigue 1/2 level time per day, then move and restart the stance as a free. And with the combo Longhamme (didn't think about the Helmet), Enlarge and Lunge, he will not have to move that much.
Second: The stonelord get those bonus against everyobody, smite or not, evil or not. So maybe the standard Paladin will get a small better ac against his smite, the Stonelord will be far better against the other creatures.
If you're referring to Stonestrike (the replacement for Smite), that's for ONE SINGLE ROUND PER DAY. If you're referring to Stonebane, you're waiting until 11th -- which is pretty much your entire career in PFS.
Meanwhile, regular paladins are picking a target as their smite buddy, and it doesn't matter how many rounds it takes. At 5th they have two a day. Constructs? Adamantine only costs money.
There is still the small ''ignore hardness up to twice your paladin level'' that you can't get. And One per paladin level per day... So, you can use it many time.
Let's see, I have a racial movement penalty and Boots of Speed run twelve grand -- but a horse costs me nadda and let's me go two-and-half-times as fast, get extra attacks (the "Horse? Sit on 'em!" grapple-check gimmick never gets old) and an elevation bonus to attack? And I can summon the thing after going past the annoying BS obstacle the mod throws up at the beginning to keep companions out? ...that's a very attractive deal.
And getting an Elemental who can follow you hidden in the ground, help you to pinpoint invisible enemy and don't get trouble in small area is not bad either. And for the move: it can be problematics, but if your party got some good caster, the enemy will come to them: just plan to be in their ways.
Yes. Pamper the paladin's classic dump-stat, and drive yourself MAD.
Which a dwarf CRB paladin would seldom fail in the first place, so that's a wash.
First, no, it is not a bigger MAD. As Imbicatus said, you trade Wisdom for Charisma.
And, the will save will be worse? A Dwarf paladin will probably get 17 in wisdom with an equivalent item, while still getting a good 20 in STR (25 point build). So, same Will save, or almost (maybe one behind, if you put 10 in wisdom). Not much drawback... but he still get a better STR than ''your'' proposition, so better attack/damage against your random enemy. The ''problem'' will be in Fort or in Ref, but Fort is still pretty high (high con, hig save...). And even with a good will, you will get a 1 sometime...
I believe Lemmy did a nice breakdown of a Stonelord here.
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I definitely suggest going long hammer / long axe and invest in the dwarves boulder helmet feats. I have a level 9 stone lord in pfs and he is a great amount of fun. I suggest using Torag as your god and if you have inner sea gods using his paladin code. Let's you distance yourself a little bit from a traditional paladin. The elemental companion is good, I use him mostly for scouting, the medium one has tremor sense so I have him stay in the ground below my square and alert me to large creatures.
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Thank you everyone for their input. I appreciate your opinions. I'm probably going to stay with the original stats. My primary weapon will be a Dwarf Longhammer. My secondary weapon will be the Dwarven Waraxe if the opponents come too close. I intend to spent 2 Prestige Points on a Wand of Enlarge Person and give it to the arcane caster, so he/she will have a body guard.
While I do acknowledge that the Stonelord Paladin lags behind the damage output of a barbarian or generic paladin, I thought the Archtype would be something different to play. It will force me and the PFS judges in my area to learn the rules on sundering.
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Hey Bryan,
If you plan on running a sunder build, get very comfortable calculation hardness/hp for items on the fly for the GM (or be able to give him something so he can do it himself quickly). Talk to Rob C. at the Dojo on Monday--he has a sunder cheatsheet stashed somewhere AND is running a Stonelord paladin.
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My advice is not to play a stonelord because it's a trap.
Just something to point out:
The Stonelord is actually a fairly nice class, it is just vastly different from a paladin. You don't really need any charisma at all until level 6 when you get Mercy, you get a nice pseudo-rage power that increases your AC, you get some great DR and good Natural Armor, you get one of the best scouts in the game, and a way to pseudo-rage cycle. It doesn't play like the standard Paladin, who is focused mainly on super-single-target-damage and being immune to a bunch of magic due to their "purity", and is more focused on being a charismatic holy warrior. It is "suboptimal", in that it is not the most optimal choice you can possibly take, but it is still completely viable and an interesting new playstyle.
@OP:I'd consider dropping CON to a 14, raising Dex to a 13, and taking Combat Reflexes. Also, the Guide to the Stalwart Defender might be worth a read.
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Here's the Object Hardness/Saving Throws calculator I threw together. It looks like it's since been edited by others and I haven't had a chance to review the changes. You may want to check a couple random results to make sure it's still functioning correctly.
For my Stonelord, I decided to go with the Dwarven Dorn-Dergar. It's not an optimal choice, but it's flavorful and helps when pesky villains step within your reach.
I carry around potions of Enlarge Person and recently acquired a Cracked Purple Prism Ioun Stone and a wand of Enlarge person. When enlarged, I've got 20ft reach, which brings me to my next point.
If you're planning to do a reach fighter, you may want to up your Dex and invest in Combat Reflexes. I like to set myself up as a protective turret for ranged and casting allies. Best way to stop something from getting them is to trip them and/or bash them with AoOs.
I also like to have a potion of Spider Climb handy. Fly is often more versatile (and I now carry those as well), but it's expensive and with Spider Climb I can retain the bonuses for touching a stone structure.
I picked up Stone Soul and Glory of Old for the massive bonuses to saves vs. Spells and SLAs. Because of this, I can forgo the Cloak of Resistance for a Shawl of Life-keeping. I also have an Aegis of Recovery. Between the two, I have a decent chance of surviving should I get knocked out of defensive stance. I may eventually replace the Shawl with the Juggernaut's Pauldrons for always-on Enlarge.
I'll be picking up the Boots of the Earth as soon as humanly (dwarvenly?) possible, for thematic and otherwise obvious reasons.
When using your elemental companion, it seems to be more-or-less consensus that you use the incorporeal rules should you have it attack from the ground (and you should, because it has precious few hit points).
Earth Elemental has Total Cover when underground (+8 AC)
Earth Elemental has 50% miss chance when attacking (using Tremor Sense to identify square)
Earth Elemental has Cover (+4 AC) if attacked with a Readied Action
If you can manage to play and survive Thornkeep: The Enigma Vaults, you'll find something nice (but expensive) on your chronicle sheet that synchs well with a no-Cloak-of-Resistance-build. That said, you're safer GMing to get the credit for that one.
I think that's about all the useful(?) advice I have to offer.