
RMcD |
Though the Pathfinder game is designed around high magic and being able and easy to create magic items it certainly doesn't feel like that in Golarian. If as the first guy said it was possible (if they had a feat) for a 1st level Wizard to create +5 swords the economy should be totally different. Especially considering millenia have past and tons of wizards have made magic items who now die, so the number of magic items over time should grow exponentially, moving with population numbers + all the dead people + number of magic items which makes it easier to make more magic items (which is a self referencing function).
http://davidvs.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/pathfinder-zaniness-7-gp-magic-item.h tml
Reminds me of this, but more importantly a SUSTAINING SPOON totally wipes out the need for farms or food or any sort. It's 5400 gp to buy, and 2700 gp to make, a 5th level wizard settles down after adventuring and can sell these. Wealth by level gives him ~5 of them, if he undercuts market prices and sells for 2800 (allowing him to continue infinite production), then banding together 4 level 3 NPCs (or level 2 heroics) can buy it with 80 gold left over each. Each contributes 700 gold.
A common meal is 3 sp, I assume most people have two meals a day in those times for 6 sp. 700/0.6 is 1166 days, 3 and 1/5th years. So not only does it take just three years to be worth it, people in food production now free up their time to take up another job.
I assume most commoners put ranks in professions which allows them to earn 2 gold a week with 1 rank and no modifier or invested feat (wait how do they afford rooms and meals), it says an untrained labourer earns an average of a silver piece a day so he could afford only one poor meal and no shelter or clothes or wow.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/profession
Anyway I went on a big tangent (and focussing on something really simple, unlike say scroll's of teleports) to say that while the game requires you to have tons of magic items the world certainly doesn't look that way.

RMcD |
Most D&D setting don't explore the full implications of the magic items and spells available to casters, because doing so would rapidly lead to a setting that has more in common with science fiction than the traditional medieval fantasy standard.
Indeed, which is why I think attempting to have so common magic items in Pathfinder was a bad creative design choice, both because one player who believes in communism can bring an entire economy crashing down, and because of the already discussed disenchantment (haha) with magic items and viewing them with banality.

JoeJ |
JoeJ wrote:Number 1. is patently untrue the higher leveled you get, because the monster have the item boosts your characters are supposed be getting factored into their stats. If you do not have those numbers you will in fact be cripple against CR appropriate threats.Khrysaor wrote:JoeJ wrote:You're assuming that the +2 sword will come along, and that for some reason the number of item slots has a bearing on how many magic items a party is able to obtain. But one of the consequences of making magic items special is that you don't need to give out anywhere near as many of them. In fact, it works better if you don't.
I haven't made any assumptions. This is how pathfinder works. Your magic items scale to compensate for the scaling power of monsters. Removing equipment advancement and limiting the number of slots players can get items for simply cripples your players.
If you think the solution is to just limit the number of items then go nuts. No one is saying to not do this. It's a fact that you'll have to do an unnecessary amount of work scaling encounters down to compensate for crippling players.
No, it's not a fact. First of all, giving PCs fewer magic items is a long way from crippling them. Between traits, skills, feats, and spells, they're amazingly powerful at any level. And if a player thinks their character just has to have more magic items, well that's what Item Creation feats are for. And third, creating appropriate encounters for the party is part of the GMs job. The amount of work isn't affected by how much magic I've given out.
You and I obviously have very different definitions of the word "crippled." In my world, the default assumption is that research, preparation, and clever tactics are needed to defeat the main villain in an adventure. It's not a matter of having lots of gear, but of having the right gear.
Number 2. is not a solution, because once a player take a crafting feat you might as well drop "low magic" from your low magic campaign.
My goal is not low magic, but meaningful magic. If the party, for example, had to travel to the edge of the world and convince the North Wind to lend them his magic flying boat so they could obtain the essence of a star, which the wizard needed in order to make the flaming sword that was the only thing that could defeat the king of the ice giants, that's pretty darn meaningful.
Number 3. is also untrue. The GM now cannot rely on CR appropriate encounters (see point 1) and must rework everything before it can be used. Even then at higher levels the GM will have to throw fights in order for the PCs to succeed.
I would never try to rely on so-called "CR appropriate encounters" in any case. CR is only a very crude ballpark number to begin with, and that's before I adjust the monsters' abilities and stats to better fit my world. Or, in some cases, create a monster from scratch. So, as I said, the amount of gear the party has doesn't affect the amount of work I have to do.

Abraham spalding |
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It's not a magic shop either. It's items available in the community -- which could be from a shop or just some tavern owner looking to liquidate some assets.
Another thought:
In the lord of the rings some magic items are a big deal but many are simply subtle and sublimely 'mundane' in their function. They are beyond superior but not crazy so -- like the cloaks, rope and lembas.
I have to wonder when people are worrying about magic items being special if they are turning their magic items into a DMPC situation.

Edymnion |
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Most D&D setting don't explore the full implications of the magic items and spells available to casters, because doing so would rapidly lead to a setting that has more in common with science fiction than the traditional medieval fantasy standard.
The biggest exception there being Eberron, which embraced the idea that magic is a thing and that of course people would use it, and ran with it.
Heck, its even got a major power faction dedicated to being magical crafters mass producing things.
The limiting factor is that the campaign setting specifically states that virtually everyone in the setting is 1st or 2nd level, with virtually no one being above 5th level.
Its not a high magic setting, but its by no means a low magic setting either. The term for it we coined on the WotC boards back in the day was "wide magic", as in there's not a lot of high level magic, but the low level stuff is freaking everywhere and used in ways that made sense.
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That said, perhaps you could take a page from Final Fantasy VII and use something like Materia?
If you never played FF7 (shame on you!), the idea was that all of the magic and abilities were actually coming from special magic crystals that you slotted into your weapons and gear. By the end of the game, you were often more concerned with the materia slots an item had than it's base stats.
Don't have to go full on FF7, but what if you made the actual enchantments on things into items that are bound to weapons/armor/gear/etc instead of enchanted directly into them?
Keep all of the same requirements otherwise, but when it came time to upgrade your gear you could simply swap out the magic stone and keep the base item. That way grandpa's sword from first level can still be the same weapon they use at 20th, they've just put more powerful gems into it.
Then the gems themselves could become ways to store excess value. If you're carrying around a +1 gem, thats 2k gold of wealth that isn't being tied up in large bulky items that can later be bartered for something they actually want.
Perhaps say the gem has to be in the item for 24 hours before it takes effect to stop them from hotswapping, or just let them hotswap enchantments as needed if you prefer.

Mark Hoover |
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Power Stunts. This was a great idea that came with the old Marvel Super Heroes game in the 1980's. Maybe it's been around longer, but that's where I heard it.
Anyway, one way to make magic items more unique is to flip the paradigm. It's a +2 Longsword but it has a bunch of blood grooves that capture the wind and whistle when the blade attacks. First couple times the fighter swings it, have them make an Intimidate check to Demoralize. Then flat out tell them "the sound might do other things as well."
Let the player play with it. Can it make a sonic boom? I don't know, maybe. How about Ghost Sounds or something? Sure. I guess what I'm saying is if you want the players to want their magic items, work with them to make the items what they want.

Starbuck_II |

It's quite easy, and requires only two steps:
Dump magic items you know they want, assume the rest will be sold.
Make a good number of the items "unique'. For example, that +2 LS is +3 vs Orcs. It's -3 if wielded by any but a ".....". Thus, the sales price is crud. I'd even make it more unique.
"Orc-slayer is a +2 LS, +3 vs Orcs, and glows when they get within 60'. It is made of a unique fey metal alloy, making it a additional +5 on hardness and +10 HP, but weighs 1# less. The wielder gets +2 on all saves vs orc spells, etc, and has +2 perception vs orcs. If wielded by any but one of elf bllod , it's merely a +1 sword, with only the add'l metal traits. There are rumors of a special ceremony that can make this weapon +3 or even a Bane weapon, which will require considerable sacrifice or quests."
Pricing that is easy too.
((Target Bonus)^2 - (Base bonus)^2) * X.+2 sword, +3 vs orcs: 3350gp (tier 2 target, so (3^2 - 2^2) * 350 =
(9-4)*350= 1750+8300= 10050 gp
but need to account for drawback: +2, +1 by non-elves: -1050
Final Price: 9000 + long sword cost (what is it 16 gp?).
I think the best way to do it would be to incorporate the boring +1's and the big six into the characters themselves rather than having them be drops or purchases that you have to get as a tax to keep up with CR.
The reliance on wearing a bunch of fancy magical items in Pathfinder is one of my biggest grievances with the system, really. How many great heroes in fantasy/mythology do you know that did anything resembling that? Most heroes have their one Legendary Weapon that carries them through the day; Arthur has Excalibur, Bilbo has Sting. If the boring and generic items were removed from the game and just became things that you got naturally as you level up and become more legendary heroes then that Ultimate Hammer of Evil Smashing the Barbarian just found will have a lot more meaning, because he knows something this kickass is unlikely to be replaced. It becomes his signature weapon, and in years to come bards will sing of how he totally crushed a tarrasque's face with it and it was awesome.
Well, this is false on the King.
While King Arthur replied mostly on his sword: he had more magic items.
He had a dagger Carnwennan: magical power to shroud its user in shadow. He also sliced a witch in 1/2 with it; also a giant.
Rhongomyniad his spear (nothing magical mentioned it doing, but it was named in the stories).
Excalibur's scabbard was said to have powers of its own. Loss of blood from injuries, for example, would not kill the bearer. In some tellings, wounds received by one wearing the scabbard did not bleed at all

Chengar Qordath |

Chengar Qordath wrote:Most D&D setting don't explore the full implications of the magic items and spells available to casters, because doing so would rapidly lead to a setting that has more in common with science fiction than the traditional medieval fantasy standard.The biggest exception there being Eberron, which embraced the idea that magic is a thing and that of course people would use it, and ran with it.
Yeah. Eberron was why I said "most" D&D settings don't explore the implications of widely available magic.

FrozenLaughs |

I've adopted a slightly different slightly Suikoden system to the traditional magic shop system. First, I've introduced key NPC characters as various crafters, for example:
One that is a jeweler, enchanter and top tier appraiser.
One that is a weaponsmith and combat trainer.
One that is a metallurgist and armorsmith, who also owns the only forge in town that is capable of working adamantine.
The jeweler has invented a new type of enchanting that lets her trap permanent enchantments into precious(5k+) gems. When the players figured out to make the connection between her and the other two smiths, they created the ultimate crafting trifecta.
The smiths now can craft gear with open gem slots, which she can craft gems for. The players can now choose between traditional gear or on-the-fly personalized gear. For a much higher cost, an enchantment can be layed on a gem and fitted into any open slot on a weapon. The bonus takes 8hrs to attune to the weapon at which point it becomes permanent until the gem is removed.
The players share these gems. They trade them around and customize for certain situations. Upgrading gear simply involves the crafting of a higher + version, with each slot(s) equivalent: a +1 longsword with a +1 slot is the cost of a traditional +2 longsword, a +1 longsword with two +1 slots, or a single +2 slot is equivalent to a +3 longsword, etc. etc.
My players LOVE this system and it has added a lot of flexibility to our games. We can continue to play with the traditional treasure system and I use completely (90%) random gear. Were the dice lucky? Use it! Does it suck? Sell it and work towards another gem! Keep your enchantments! Flaming might have cost you 7k, but you get to keep it, for all your future weapons!
The system works pretty well for most accessories too, anything with a stat or skill bonus can be emulated with Gems. You might own a Str +2 gem, a Dex +2 gem and a Con +2 gem, and early on have a belt with 1 open slot. Later on you may find/craft one with 2 or even 3 open slots.
You could even add a level of complexity by shaping the gems(weapons round, armor square, skills diamond, stats hexagon). The system is really open ended.

Koshimo |
On this que, idd like an opinion and advice on this idea:
Say i'dd give my players "enhancement bonus" for free on all their Proficient attacks, at a rate of +1 per 4 levels, starting at 3 (so +5 at 19).
Say i'dd give my players the same for AC but at 2nd level (so +5 at 18th level).
And finally saves +1 per 4 levels, starting at 2nd (so +5 at 18th).How much would you drop gold generation to accommodate for this change?
well as just a wbl argument if they have 1 attack thats 50k twf 100k
armor is 25k if they have a shield too 50k and saves are 25k so likely between 125, and 150k less than standard WBL but that still doesnt account for properties
gamer-printer |

In most of the games I run, magic shops simply don't exist. I have included unique bazaar at some off-world, heavily enchanted location (like the Plane of Dreams) where magic items can be easily obtained, but only one such place might exist that the PCs will encounter - this being a very rare situation.
Individual crafter/enchanters do exist, but work by commission one item at a time, everything is special order, and there are no shelves containing existing items on display. A supply of prepared scrolls might exist, as well as common wands, however, in most cases only supplies: parchment, special inks, spell components and such are what can be purchased onsite.
As standard procedure, a PC can place an order for a specific magic item, paid for up front, but won't be available until after the PC returns from their next/current adventure - so they won't gain possession until a few weeks after they placed the order.
I also ask my players to provide a wish-list of items they plan on obtaining for their PCs. To which I will often select one item from each of the lists and include them as "found treasure" in an upcoming dungeon location. I would also short them some of the expected wealth level to replace the cost of those "found items". I almost never include "found items" that the party would find useless and want to trade away for cash or other items.

Smallfoot |
As I've been reading this thread, another possibility has occurred to me. It wouldn't be for potions, scrolls, or wands, but most everything else.
This is a variant of the 'items level up with the character' concept, but based somewhat on the PFS fame/prestige system. In this concept, XP has two functions. The first is the usual experience progression. For this function XP is like PFS Fame. It's permanent (less level drains or similar but see below). But the second function allows for a variable amount, like PFS Prestige Points. Call it XP2. The player can 'spend' XP2 to enhance her gear. The cost in XP2 for a given enchantment would be roughly keyed to the Pathfinder gp cost. (This would call for some careful GM work since standard XP goes up faster than standard WBL.)
Example: A newly-3rd level druid, with exactly 5001 XP wants an amulet of natural armor +1. He can readily obtain a non-magical amulet of the appropriate material. He must then spend 2000 XP2 in order to get the enchantment placed. This leaves him with 5001XP and 3001XP2. He decides to enchant his scythe as well, using 2000XP2 to make it +1. Now at 5001XP/1001XP2, he continues adventuring. He'll need 4000XP2 to improve the amulet to +2 and 8000 for the scythe. Any XP earned adventuring contributes to both pools, but only the second is spent.
How does the spending part work? Up to the GM. A simple method would be a well-known ritual that any character can do which takes a certain amount of time per 1000XP2 - perhaps one day. You could elaborate. Perhaps each class has a different ritual. Maybe it requires some kind of magical assistance, divine or arcane. Maybe the assistance has to come from someone at X level for a given enchantment, where X is designed to be generally higher than the level of the character. Maybe the assistance comes from a purely NPC class, the Magical Infuser.
Another possible wrinkle - added enchantment with XP2 might not be usable by anyone else, or even permanent. If the character dies, the enchantment begins to fade (How fast? Days? Weeks?). Making a permanent, anyone-can-use-it enchanted item would require spending real XP. Your character would have to sacrifice progress or even already-gained levels.
Does any of that sound useful and/or workable?

Koshimo |
As I've been reading this thread, another possibility has occurred to me. It wouldn't be for potions, scrolls, or wands, but most everything else.
This is a variant of the 'items level up with the character' concept, but based somewhat on the PFS fame/prestige system. In this concept, XP has two functions. The first is the usual experience progression. For this function XP is like PFS Fame. It's permanent (less level drains or similar but see below). But the second function allows for a variable amount, like PFS Prestige Points. Call it XP2. The player can 'spend' XP2 to enhance her gear. The cost in XP2 for a given enchantment would be roughly keyed to the Pathfinder gp cost. (This would call for some careful GM work since standard XP goes up faster than standard WBL.)
Example: A newly-3rd level druid, with exactly 5001 XP wants an amulet of natural armor +1. He can readily obtain a non-magical amulet of the appropriate material. He must then spend 2000 XP2 in order to get the enchantment placed. This leaves him with 5001XP and 3001XP2. He decides to enchant his scythe as well, using 2000XP2 to make it +1. Now at 5001XP/1001XP2, he continues adventuring. He'll need 4000XP2 to improve the amulet to +2 and 8000 for the scythe. Any XP earned adventuring contributes to both pools, but only the second is spent.
How does the spending part work? Up to the GM. A simple method would be a well-known ritual that any character can do which takes a certain amount of time per 1000XP2 - perhaps one day. You could elaborate. Perhaps each class has a different ritual. Maybe it requires some kind of magical assistance, divine or arcane. Maybe the assistance has to come from someone at X level for a given enchantment, where X is designed to be generally higher than the level of the character. Maybe the assistance comes from a purely NPC class, the Magical Infuser.
Another possible wrinkle - added enchantment with XP2 might not be usable by anyone else, or even permanent. If the character dies,...
two issue i see with this it removes any randomness the gm would normally put into the game, and gets rid of the looting aspect of an adventure because its all built into xp
also if you use standard xp chart and both xp1 and xp2 as you say advance with eachother equally level 20 the player will have the equivalent of between 2.4m and 5.3m gold value so at least triple WBL

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Second the 'materia' concept from FF7. I had a blast with a low level campaign built around a world over-ridden with high power monsters and few sparse settlements focused on keeping the monsters outside their walls.
The goal of the campaign was to accumulate enough magic 'essence' to turn whole towns into adventuring parties that could defend themselves from the OP wilderness. This essence was also spent to create magic items (since high GP economies and large cities were impossible).
It was fun to think of magic itself as a commodity, rather than some privilege for the rich and powerful NPCs and PCs.

Smallfoot |
two issue i see with this it removes any randomness the gm would normally put into the game, and gets rid of the looting aspect of an adventure because its all built into xp
also if you use standard xp chart and both xp1 and xp2 as you say advance with eachother equally level 20 the player will have the equivalent of between 2.4m and 5.3m gold value so at least triple WBL
Thanks, Koshimo, I appreciate the feedback.
My approach does minimize the randomness factor, but that's because it's meant to address the issue of Pathfinder being built around magic items as part of the PC's power by level. It gives the players a big portion of the responsibility of powering up. As GM you could moderate this quite a bit. Award XP2 at a lower rate than XP1 is the simplest. That looks to be necessary at higher levels anyway, as you pointed out. You could also limit the type of enhancements that XP2 can provide, or the types of magic items it can be used for.
The GM can also modify the system to make loot more desirable. The enhancement ritual could have a cost in gp as well as XP2. You could make the enhancements really temporary, so players need some gold just to keep their magic up - which would also make permanent magic items that much more valuable.
This is about walking the line between always-available 'magic shop' equippage on one hand and leaving a chunk of character effectiveness at the mercy of what they can find on the other. Some GMs really like the latter, and I can understand why, but if you're going to do it that way, you've got to watch really carefully or combats that should be balanced can swing far away from the players pretty quickly.

Koshimo |
Personally I really like the idea of building the core items into leveling and manually lowering WBL that way all players can get the "standard" bonuses as the campaign goes along but have room for interesting items for each slot
it makes no sense to me for example that without paying 1.5x cost a monk cant get a physical item and monks belt
the other thing to me is while it makes sense that every shop in every town shouldn't have any magic item the player can think of, it shouldnt be prohibitive for the player to get the items he wants most of wbl for a martial char is spent on the big six anyways plus weapons and armor
idk just think we should be trying to make the game fun not limit player creativity