I've been working on an arcane archer build for a long time now and I was wondering if I could get some feedback on it. The DM has ruled that non-Elven races can be used for Arcane Archer and has assured me that I will almost always be able to use mounts in combat.
He is an Oread with these stats: 18, 15, 14, 15, 19, 11
Levels: 1-Zen Archer, 2-Sorcerer, 3-Zen Archer, 4-Zen Archer, 5-Zen Archer, 6-Zen Archer, 7-Dragoon, 8-Zen Archer, 9-Dragoon, 10-Sorcerer, 11-20-Arcane Archer
Due to Fighter and Zen Archer feats, he gets a lot of feats
Feats: 1-Perfect Strike, free, Quick draw, Precise Shot with Monk Bonus Feat, 2-Eschew Materials with Sorcerer, 3-Point Blank Shot with Monk Bonus Feat, Weapon Focus(Bow) for free, Deadly Aim, 4-Point Blank Master for free, 5- Mounted Combat, 7- Mounted Archery with Dragoon Bonus Feat, Skill Focus(Ride) with Dragoon bonus feat, Improved Precise Shot, 8-Rapid Shot with Monk Bonus Feat, Weapon Specialization(Bow) free, 9- Trick Riding with Fighter Bonus Feat, Snap Shot.
He's taking the Empyreal Bloodline of sorcerer, which uses Wisdom for casting rather than Charisma and to make up for how few levels he's taking in Sorcerer, he's taking the Magical Knack trait to improve his spellcasting.
I realize that this is a rather unorthodox build, but using Zen Archer allows me to avoid the Manyshot chain and gives me quite a few feats, and since I can't wear armor, I can use mage armor to improve my AC. The monk levels give me Flurry of Blows that throughout the game stays about as good as a rapid/manyshot full attack. Thoughts?
Anyone? I would really appreciate the feedback.
I'd say it's a pretty good alternative overall to the other options I've seen for AA. Definitely leaning more towards archer than arcane which is fine, you'll still have some good utility spells and such to keep yourself rolling.
I will say that you probably don't need the mounted archery feat. it's one of those weird things where it sounds good but you don't take any minus's while shooting from horseback unless your mount moves more than it's speed. I've found it's very rare to need to go more than 50ft(most mounts base speed) during a regular turn. The big exceptions are when your basically in full retreat or trying to chase down someone trying to run away from you. If you just couldn't find another more useful feat to fill the slot with then cool, but if you can move some other feats to earlier levels to get more play time out of them it'd prolly be a good move.
Just my few thoughts and opinions from a quick browse.
PSY
Rapid Shot doesn't work with flurry.
Dragoon specifically gives Mounted Combat and Skill Focus (Ride), why take it at 5th? You can't take Mounted Archery instead of Mounted Combat.
Snap Shot is only worth it as a prerequisite for Improved Snap Shot, you can already threaten via Zen Archer.
I'm not sure what you are using Quick Draw for. It can be good for surprise rounds and using metamagic rods in combat, but you don't need it to full attack with a bow.
I'd say it's a pretty good alternative overall to the other options I've seen for AA. Definitely leaning more towards archer than arcane which is fine, you'll still have some good utility spells and such to keep yourself rolling.
I will say that you probably don't need the mounted archery feat. it's one of those weird things where it sounds good but you don't take any minus's while shooting from horseback unless your mount moves more than it's speed. I've found it's very rare to need to go more than 50ft(most mounts base speed) during a regular turn. The big exceptions are when your basically in full retreat or trying to chase down someone trying to run away from you. If you just couldn't find another more useful feat to fill the slot with then cool, but if you can move some other feats to earlier levels to get more play time out of them it'd prolly be a good move.
Just my few thoughts and opinions from a quick browse.
PSY
First, thank you very much for the feedback. Doesn't Mounted Archery reduce normal penalties from shooting while mounted by half, so that seems like it might be worth it? I still have a long time until I reach that level, so I can reevaluate as I go.
I always liked the idea of snap shot, imp. snap shot and combat patrol to have an effective threat range of 20feet +5 ft per 5 BAB. Combine that with high dex you can take a number of AoO's, for movement, casting or what have you. so eventually you get to harry spell casters quite well. granted combat patrol is a full round action, but you can use your mounts movement to position yourself were you can take advantage of the AoO's.
Another thought I had, if you're going to be using a mount a lot, you might want a more survivable mount, like a druid animal companion? Animal ally has nature soul as a pre-req, but grants an animal companion at ECL -3 for your druid level. Boon companion raises druid level by 4. it's three feats, but you get a very survivable mount and combat viable one. Just a thought.
Also, like was mentioned previously, rapid shot can't be used with flurry of bows, and quick draw isn't too vital to your build.
Trick riding is a cool feat flavor wise, but your ride skill by the point you get it should be at least +14, +16 with your skill focus, even higher depending on traits and such, so you probably wont be failing dc 15 skill checks since you need a 1 (which as far as I know isn't an auto fail on a skill check). So the feat basically allows 2 ride checks instead of one to negate a hit on mount. If that's why you took it cool though.
Have you considered using dex instead of wis for your archery? improves your init as well as your ride skill. I know you're probably thinking wis for your sorc abilities, but you won't reach more than level 6 spells, meaning max you'll need is a 16 on wis. Dc's won't be quite as high, but that 1 won't make too much of a difference...
Rapid Shot doesn't work with flurry.
Dragoon specifically gives Mounted Combat and Skill Focus (Ride), why take it at 5th? You can't take Mounted Archery instead of Mounted Combat.
Snap Shot is only worth it as a prerequisite for Improved Snap Shot, you can already threaten via Zen Archer.
I'm not sure what you are using Quick Draw for. It can be good for surprise rounds and using metamagic rods in combat, but you don't need it to full attack with a bow.
I'm using rapid shot as a prerequisite for Improved Snap Shot, despite it not working with flurry. Since I'm doing only 6 levels in Zen Archer, I don't gain the ability to threaten until 9th level.
Thank you for pointing out the feat mixup with Dragoon, I was playing around with what levels to take my first Dragoon level in and must have forgotten to change the feats. I can't edit my post now, but I meant to move Mounted Archery to my 9th level feat, take Rapid Shot at 5th level and Snap Shot at 7th.
I'm using quick draw just to make sure that I can always use my bow as soon as possible. I know it isn't necessary for full attacks, but from my experiences in the types of campaigns my DM runs, Quick Draw becomes very useful.
Pretty solid then. Improved Snap Shot is indeed very good and it is worth pretty much whatever it takes to get it as soon as possible. Quick Draw is indeed worth it if you will be enduring lots of surprise rounds, it sounds like you think the campaign will make it useful, it probably will.
I would check with my group to see if Mounted Archery is even worth it. It is awesome to use mounts and play keep away from enemies, but it won't work if your team isn't doing the same thing. If you ride away and another character who is squishy takes a full attack that is not good for anyone.
Why dragoon? It appears to give you very little relative to what other fighter types give. What level will your campaign carry on until? AA is usually really late entry.
Also, I would recommend against any mounted archery feats, they're completely wasted. I explain why in my guide to rangers, but you've got EVEN LESS reason to take them. You will eventually wan to be flying or greater invisible during fights. The mounted feats are essentially just thrown away.
I always liked the idea of snap shot, imp. snap shot and combat patrol to have an effective threat range of 20feet +5 ft per 5 BAB. Combine that with high dex you can take a number of AoO's, for movement, casting or what have you. so eventually you get to harry spell casters quite well. granted combat patrol is a full round action, but you can use your mounts movement to position yourself were you can take advantage of the AoO's.
Another thought I had, if you're going to be using a mount a lot, you might want a more survivable mount, like a druid animal companion? Animal ally has nature soul as a pre-req, but grants an animal companion at ECL -3 for your druid level. Boon companion raises druid level by 4. it's three feats, but you get a very survivable mount and combat viable one. Just a thought.
Also, like was mentioned previously, rapid shot can't be used with flurry of bows, and quick draw isn't too vital to your build.
Trick riding is a cool feat flavor wise, but your ride skill by the point you get it should be at least +14, +16 with your skill focus, even higher depending on traits and such, so you probably wont be failing dc 15 skill checks since you need a 1 (which as far as I know isn't an auto fail on a skill check). So the feat basically allows 2 ride checks instead of one to negate a hit on mount. If that's why you took it cool though.
Have you considered using dex instead of wis for your archery? improves your init as well as your ride skill. I know you're probably thinking wis for your sorc abilities, but you won't reach more than level 6 spells, meaning max you'll need is a 16 on wis. Dc's won't be quite as high, but that 1 won't make too much of a difference...
I definitely haven't taken a look at combat patrol until now. That does seem pretty cool, but my main concern with it is that thanks to my myriad of classes my BAB isn't that high, so it might not be as effective as simply whaling into someone.
I was definitely worried about my mount surviving, but fortunately my DM has told me that there are plenty of tough mounts that he will put into the campaign to ensure that I remain competitive, so that isn't as much of a concern. That's also one of the reasons that I took trick riding, to help my mount survive, but the main reason was that it set up for Mounted Skirmisher, which allows for a full attack action while my mount moves up to its speed.
I did think a lot about whether to use Wis or Dex for my archery, but I chose Wis since it also boosted my AC and improved my ki pool, which is definitely something I want.
Fair enough, though a 20ft threat is pretty sweet still, as it forces any casters to cast defensively, and since you're threatening any ranged opponents, they take a -4 and provoke as well.
The only other thing about the druid mount is that it will do things for you other mounts wont. You have to make handle animal checks to get them into certain situations, whereas your companion will have increased ability to do so (especially if you increase his int to 3 so he understands a language credit for that to Treantmonk). You seem to have a pretty accommodating gm for the whole mounted aspect though, so it might not be an issue, though, if he's really accommodating, you mkight want to consider leadership or a modified version of the feat (i never cared for the army you get, just the cohort) to bind an intelligent mount to you in a more meaningful way, also allowing it class levels and increased survivabillity.
The push for dex was more for a combat patrol build for the extra AoO i suppose, in the end the AC is the same though, and a ring of ki mastery could make up for the loss of some ki from lower wis. But if you aren't pushing high AoO then it's not too big an issue (though if you are going imp snap shot you still threaten 15ft which can be useful, esp. since AoO's aren't on your turn. full action attack on your turn and punish anyone who wants to scratch their nose within 15ft is still pretty effective)
Fair enough, though a 20ft threat is pretty sweet still, as it forces any casters to cast defensively, and since you're threatening any ranged opponents, they take a -4 and provoke as well.
The only other thing about the druid mount is that it will do things for you other mounts wont. You have to make handle animal checks to get them into certain situations, whereas your companion will have increased ability to do so (especially if you increase his int to 3 so he understands a language credit for that to Treantmonk). You seem to have a pretty accommodating gm for the whole mounted aspect though, so it might not be an issue, though, if he's really accommodating, you mkight want to consider leadership or a modified version of the feat (i never cared for the army you get, just the cohort) to bind an intelligent mount to you in a more meaningful way, also allowing it class levels and increased survivabillity.
The push for dex was more for a combat patrol build for the extra AoO i suppose, in the end the AC is the same though, and a ring of ki mastery could make up for the loss of some ki from lower wis. But if you aren't pushing high AoO then it's not too big an issue (though if you are going imp snap shot you still threaten 15ft which can be useful, esp. since AoO's aren't on your turn. full action attack on your turn and punish anyone who wants to scratch their nose within 15ft is still pretty effective)
That was kind of my logic, since my party has a lot of people with low hit points, my hope was to discourage enemies from approaching them with the attacks of opportunity and then just full attack anyone who comes near us, and Combat Patrol probably won't do enough additional damage to warrant a full-round action.
Cool, I'll be interested to know how the build works out, GLHF!