Global Organized Play Coordinator
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It seems to be getting more frequent, but needs some kind of reward to go with it. It doesn't have to be money. Looking back, any scenario where I had to option to go hard mode on would have been a disaster for us if we had done so. That's fine, but those who actually succeed should get SOMETHING.
As was mentioned, people clamored for more challenge and we answered that challenge with hard mode. We advised before it was implemented, that it would not be used to imbalance the WBL curve or add boons or whatever and that it would only be for bragging and an additional challenge. Almost everyone was happy with that. I am deep into PaizoCon prep so don't have time to go find the link but it's out there. If we were going to make any changes, we would remove hard mode altogether before adding any additional rewards.
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There's no reason to worry. People who complain about Hard Mode not having additional rewards don't actually want Hard Mode. They just want to stomp everything in Easy Mode and brag about how easy they have it due to their their super-genius powergaming skills.
-Matt
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It seems to be getting more frequent, but needs some kind of reward to go with it. It doesn't have to be money. Looking back, any scenario where I had to option to go hard mode on would have been a disaster for us if we had done so. That's fine, but those who actually succeed should get SOMETHING.And this makes me laugh.
Back when it was being talked up, clamoring that scenarios are too easy, we need more challenge, we don't care if there's no rewards except the challenge!
So, they implement the occasional hard mode...and now:
The big concern was that the only reward for hard mode is the pride in doing hard mode. They mentioned that if there was a gold or boon reward then they would consider it.That's fine, but those who actually succeed should get SOMETHING.
I never advocated a hard mode without extra rewards. In general, getting away from the 4-player balance of season 0-3 solved 80% of the problem. Although NPC construction could still be improved as a general thing, but as Kyle mentioned, people clamored for more monsters. Well, they got them.
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There's no reason to worry. People who complain about Hard Mode not having additional rewards don't actually want Hard Mode. They just want to stomp everything in Easy Mode.
-Matt
I don't think that's true. I think risk vs reward should always be present in a game like this. Like how Bonekeep has extra potential rewards. It's fine as is, it would just be better I think with some kind of small bone to throw to people. Of course, I think that WBL concerns are very overblown in a campaign like this (the old tiering up at will abuse was the exception) but management in general puts a higher priority on it. So I can I see why they put in hard mode they way they did.
None of my PCs are decked out to do a hard mode anyway, so it matters not at all to me.
If the players wanted it, I don't see why it couldn't be done.
Eh, because players sometimes like to turn things on the GM and make it his/her fault. "You ran four players through the six player hard mode and we TPK'd. You're not even allowed to do that. I want a retcon and I want to re-play it. I'm-a talk to your VO. Rawr!" is not something that any GM wants coming back to bit him/her in the butt.
But since you only have to answer to yourself, Mr. Baird, I don't see why you couldn't do it.
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"You ran four players through the six player hard mode and we TPK'd. You're not even allowed to do that. I want a retcon and I want to re-play it. I'm-a talk to your VO. Rawr!"
Do you really think this is a real possibility? It's one thing to have my position and be disappointed in the lack of rewards for hard mode (and lack appropriate PCs), but its entirely another to *voluntarily* play it, then TPK, and THEN blame GM. Sounds absurd to me.
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GMed just recently this scenario and although I predicted low roleplay and a lot of too difficult combat to handle, it went well in the end and players enjoyed even though they received 1 PP and 1/3 of gold only.
The group was mostly melee oriented:
Lv 10 Barb 8/Ninja 2
Lv 8 Cavalier
Lv 8 Fighter (tank)
Lv 7 Kira (pregen)
The first fight went pretty much as expected. They had almost no chance so they decided to run and they managed just barely (Kira had only 20 ft. speed so cavalier heroicly grabbed her and run off). When they returned, they noticed that swarms and demon were gone, but so was any valuables they could scavange. They followed the tracks afterwards to the worst encounter ever for them.
The cave fight went terrible. I didn't expect that 3/4 players would fail on their Will Saves Vs Suggestion and only person who managed to Save was fighter ironically. After it, he barely managed to escape the ooze and reason his friends to cast some defensive spells on them to remove the effect but his Diplomacy wasn't good and Intimidate rolls were terrible. This pretty much costed them a mission. I didn't know how long Suggestion lasted, but I knew it lasts in hours and I ruled that it lasted for reminder of day. So it took them 2 days (away and back) to get back on track. VC Nikolai and agents were dead by then as they found "fresh graves" while traveling jungle.
In the end, they managed to locate the main person responsible for everything and had hard time against it. Before combat though, I roleplayed a bit NPC and quickly came up with a story that "black orbs" that they were looking for were cursed and eventually were the Pathfinders doom as they slowly dig their own graves. PC's (almost!) fell to the story but my Bluff check was low (rolled 3 on dice) and 2 PC's rolled good and found out that she is lying as hell. In fight, the aura and charms were almost to much for them. I slightly softballed and delayed by trying to charm them in combat (they received +5 bonus on successful Sense Motive check even) while trying to give them time to pass a Will Save in her aura. I maybe ruled incorrectly calm emotions effect though as I didn't really know how it worked as "aura" effect. It confused me a bit. In the end, time was running short and I wasn't sure if Kira's Circle of Prot. from Evil blocked aura effect so I gave PC's minor advantage there and they finally made a first blow against boss. They struggled until end, but none went into negative HP.
We had a lot of fun in the end even though I immediately notified them that scenario is pretty hard, written by no less famous Kyle Baird, but they didn't have a clue about him sadly.
Adam
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Do you really think this is a real possibility? It's one thing to have my position and be disappointed in the lack of rewards for hard mode (and lack appropriate PCs), but its entirely another to *voluntarily* play it, then TPK, and THEN blame GM. Sounds absurd to me.
You say that but... Player do, players have. Players do and players have even without hardmode. Pre-Season 5: "Let's play up; I want the challenge. GM was a butt, playing up was hard!" This is simplified, but I've witnessed it.
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Do you really think this is a real possibility? It's one thing to have my position and be disappointed in the lack of rewards for hard mode (and lack appropriate PCs), but its entirely another to *voluntarily* play it, then TPK, and THEN blame GM. Sounds absurd to me.You say that but... Player do, players have. Players do and players have even without hardmode. Pre-Season 5: "Let's play up; I want the challenge. GM was a butt, playing up was hard!" This is simplified, but I've witnessed it.
/facepalm
I am extremely careful when discussing with a group what tier to engineer. And that's just tiering. That's not even hard mode. Again,
/facepalm
That's just so rude to the GM. I may have rules disputes from time to time with a GM, but I would never blame them for MY choice.
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You could add very limited boons, or mostly non mechanical ones.
- Aram Zey is forced to write you a letter of apology
- Changes the boxed text so drendle dreng is required to let you sleep in until a reasonable hour.
- Specifically designed cool hats, shirts clothing etc
-bottles of wine
-chocholate
- non magical tatoo
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Just got home from this. Was the most fun I've had running for my life in a long time and it was a great retirement game for Kiara, my Hellknight Signifier of the Pyre. Had a couple of narrative questions that both I and my GM were wondering about.
1) How much is the Alarune willing to diplomicize with the party and what exactly pushes it to combat? We had a lot of talking and stuff, especially because I as the party face was making saves against everything it could throw at me. Not saying my GM did it wrong, but from my read of the encounter, the violence should have started sooner.
(Note: The beginning of the "violence" was Kiara getting her spleen ripped out by the Alarune. Thanks to the boon from *REDACTED* I didn't die from it. Normally I'd be further away from a melee critter :P)
2) How should the ending resolve if Nikolai and Co. get left in plant land?
Note: If you ever need a slightly nutty gnomish VC, let me know :).
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I mean, sure if the players are brand new to higher tier games. But if they've been around for a while, they should be assuming that they're teleporting into a fight. I mean, this isn't uncommon.
4-04 King of the Storval Stairs
4-26 The Waking Rune
5-05 Elven Entanglement
compare to
4-20 Words of the Ancients
5-10 Where Mammoths Dare Not Tread
(Note that this is me going through 7-11s. There might be more in other lower tiers.)
I mean, if the players are new to PFS, then sure, but given past experiences, I expect some people to know better. I know that my characters buff before teleporting every time now.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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So... Useful illustration of why it is a bad idea to run cold.
When I played this:
Sadly, this resulted in the game running much longer, though we did save a lot of time by simply D-Dooring past Encounter 2. (We were like, yeah, we don't have time for that... )
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I may have posted this earlier (on phone right now), but I ran it once and the party got rid of 4 of the 5 swarms in the first full round (only two swarms made their perception checks to get a surprise round). The 5th was reduced to under 20 hp, then the Derakni showed up and the PCs forgot about the swarm since they had all made their save and kept moving from it (so it never had a chance to eat their equipment). I then quickly summoned a few spider swarms just to keep the derakni around.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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We had three clerics, two at least of whom had alignment channel and an arcane caster. I let them kill off swarms while my high mobility barbarian played tag with the Derakni. (my small air elemental did finish off one of the swarms. 100' flight + Whirlwind for the win. We never did figure out what happens to a square of the swarm that gets sucked up into the whirlwind.)
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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4(?) rounds of combat, took 40(?) damage, dealt 100(?), didn't get poisoned once. (I could only fail on a 1-3, and I had eternal hope so I got to re-roll the first one. First time in 8 levels that I rolled a one, where it was important *and* remembered that I had eternal hope in time to use it)
All this at Level 8 in tier 10-11.
I think I won that game. (Neil is basically built to play tag with outsiders. World Serpent Totem Barbarian, among other things. ) (Okay, it did help that they were more worried about the level 10-11 characters. But Neil is really good at moving in, hitting, and then being gone. )
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played tag with the DerakniThat is not a game of tag I'd want to be involved with.
FWIW running any 7-11 cold is a terrible situation.
Some are okay. Ones with very straight-forward plots and limited novel mechanics. For example, I think King of the Storval Stairs would run just fine cold. At least for me.
Honestly, I don't think the tiering is as important as the nature of the scenario. I can't imagine trying to run Library of the Lion cold, because there are novel mechanics at work. Many 7-11's are just the PCs murderhoboing NPCs in their path. If the NPCs' aren't unusual, like in this scenario, it's not that challenging.
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played tag with the DerakniThat is not a game of tag I'd want to be involved with.
FWIW running any 7-11 cold is a terrible situation.
Depends on the PC. Without death ward, a huge touch AC, or something similar, that 3/day enervation is the real problem. 3d4 negative levels will ruin anyone's scenario if they land.
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Depends on the PC. Without death ward, a huge touch AC, or something similar, that 3/day enervation is the real problem. 3d4 negative levels will ruin anyone's scenario if they land.played tag with the DerakniThat is not a game of tag I'd want to be involved with.
FWIW running any 7-11 cold is a terrible situation.
Well assuming they survive the encounter, they need only wait 12 hours for all their levels to return. :-)
edit: And it's up to the GM if all 3 of those enervations really need to go to the same PC.
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Well assuming they survive the encounter, they need only wait 12 hours for all their levels to return. :-)
edit: And it's up to the GM if all 3 of those enervations really need to go to the same PC.
Heh, I would be inclined to agree that a GM who put all 3 of those on the same PC was definitely running on hardcore mode. However, if the rest of the party was engaged with the swarms and I only had one barbarian playing tag with me, I might consider playing tag with my enervation SLA's. Three clerics and no death ward almost deserves it! :p
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Actually, if he wanted to ruin my day, enervating my Air elemental might have hurt me more. (Not sure, but for purposes of dieing from negative levels does it count as my level, or its HD? )
I believe one of the characters sucked down 4 enervates all by himself. (I think that was partially GM annoyance. He *was* the most effective character on the field, so he got hit by the first two. When both of those rolled one, he got hit by one more, which also rolled a one... At which point the GM (and by extension the Derakni) just got frustrated :)
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For those of you who are interested in trying to get some kind of "official" response from the designers on how swarms are supposed to function, I have posted in THIS thread with a summary of the main points of interest. Please take a moment to click the FAQ. If we get enough, we just might get some clarification.
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Actually, if he wanted to ruin my day, enervating my Air elemental might have hurt me more. (Not sure, but for purposes of dieing from negative levels does it count as my level, or its HD? )
I believe one of the characters sucked down 4 enervates all by himself. (I think that was partially GM annoyance. He *was* the most effective character on the field, so he got hit by the first two. When both of those rolled one, he got hit by one more, which also rolled a one... At which point the GM (and by extension the Derakni) just got frustrated :)
Heh, that must have been nice. Between all the enervations when I played, we had two players that were almost dead from negative levels. One of my fellow PC's got crit by a enervation ray, and the other got hit by two almost max rolls. It certainly made the first fight intense. My dex rogue was one of two PC's able to effectively combat the swarms thanks to a swarmbane clasp, and my beastly reflex save kept my gear intact.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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So that was a completely different experience.
(Cleric of Pharasma)
Oh, He is scrying the camp? Here, let me study that for a bit, I've got this neat domain power I have never had a chance to use. (studys the view through the mirror, then starts popping his own scrying sensors. I have him pick where they land on the empty grass map. 4 of them land inside buildings, revealing 4 swarms. 2 give him a possible chance to spot the derakni, but he blows both perception checks. (Not that they were hiding, but it was things like a corner of a wing out the window, and he rolled really low.) But he makes the vesicor swarms knowledge checks.)
Some intense planning latter, and they go through the portal loaded for swarm. The Dragon Disciple roars, bringing the swarms flying out, the swarms roll lucky and beat everyones initiative, (rolled seperately, but rolled high) meaning they all converge on the party before anyone gets very far.
A swift and a standard negative channel later, and all the swarms were gone. (Including the extra swarms I forgot to have the derakni quick summon, but it wouldn't have made a difference.
The only lasting damage from the table was the 7th level PC playing in the Tier 10-11 who got hit by an enervate. I felt bad about that, but no one had acted at that point, and he was the cleanest target.
That was also the only time all night anyone made a successful knowledge check to identify a monster by enough to get any additional information.
DD: Hey, its an ooze, I'm a dragon disciple, I will use my acid breath on it, ooze's hate acid!
(some ridiculous amount of damage is rolled.)
Me: The acid doesn't seem to have any effect. You have a vague recollection that the thing oozes don't like is alkali.
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Priest of Gorum: I acrobatics through it and hit it from the back side.
Acrobatics fail
AoO hit
Grab hit
Constrict hit
and the priest is moved to the nearest adjacent square, on the other side of the ooze.
Me: Well, that's sort of what you wanted, it just hurt more than you meant it to.
Cleric of Serenrae and only person to have an action in the surprise round.: I rolled a 4 initiative, I thinK I'll reroll that.
Cleric of Pharasma: I wouldn't wast your reroll, save it for later.
Player who failed to appreciate the signifigance of the gorrilians having 4 axes: Wait, that one can't attack me again, he just finished attacking me... What do you mean all seven of those attacks were just the first one?
Fighter after a gorrilians 3rd attack: Well, I am at -10 hit points.
Me: so you drop?
Fighter: No I have die hard.
Me: Sorry.
Several someones: Massed Profanity, as I put out the seven inch tall minis for the two Tobongos. "What are those!!!"
Someone: Holy -bleep- that tree just grabbed that gorilla and reverse pealed him like a banana! (scored an attack of opportunity on a gorrilian who was trying to get away.)
Someone: RUN!
One of the clerics: That's okay, most of us are clerics, Will is our strong save.
Cleric of Pharasma: I hit myself with freedom of movement, and I surrender, lets talk this out.
Way back when they first got there. At the time no one has any idea about an alruane.
Someone: Hey, this is a jungle. I bet there all sorts of noxious fumes and poison gasses.
Fifth encounter: Calm Emotions and Blow smoke are both, effectively gas based attacks. And Life Bubble is still up.
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Alruane: But I am the voice of the decemvirate. (rolls ridiculously well on bluff check, PCs fail to beat it even with the penalties for a far fetched fib.)
PC: Well then, surely you can answer these simple questions about the pathfinder society for us.
Alruane:
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Fire and acid flow like a mighty stream, and suddenly everybody starts making their will saves again.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Oh, and I almost forgot:
11th level cleric: "How does speak with dead work? I have never had anyone fail their save before, so I don't actually know what it does."
(As he proceeds to question one of the only creatures in the whole scenario that has absolutely zero useful knowledge.)