Well, swarm damage is area damage that doesn't target creatures, so it should work.
Yes, both swarms deal damage to each others as swarms deal damage to all creatures it shares a square with.
Can two swarms overlap?
If one was flying, and the other wasn't, I could see how they would, but I'm not sure of the mechanics of two ground-based swarms.
Why wouldn't they?
So, if two opposing swarms can occupy the same space, dealing damage to each other, can two identical swarms occupy the same space, and each deal swarm damage to a PC?
This one is a no, as it's called out in the swarm traits or subtype (can't remember which right atm) in the Bestiary. When 2 like swarms combine, they just end up spreading out and covering a larger area.
Hmm...that's what I get from going from memory. I could have sworn I read that multiple swarms were just considered larger ones and multiples couldn't stack damage. It might have been mis-remembering or an older version. Either way, it looks like they could stack from that...
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Whether or not swarms are technically allowed to stack, I would definitely let swarms fight each other.
Rule of Cool overrides in this case.
Oh yeah. And it does say the swarm can enter the space of a creature of any size, so no real restrictions on swarms going mano-a-mano in a pit fight grudge match ;) Last one not eaten wins!
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I see nothing in the traits, etc that defines a swarm's damage as an area affect. In fact, DR would apply vs. their auto-attack so it would seem the attack is merely a non-magical weapon-like/natural attack. Since diminutive/fine swarms are immune to such damage, overlapping swarms would not be able to damage each other.
I see nothing in the traits, etc that defines a swarm's damage as an area affect. In fact, DR would apply vs. their auto-attack so it would seem the attack is merely a non-magical weapon-like/natural attack. Since diminutive/fine swarms are immune to such damage, overlapping swarms would not be able to damage each other.
I would see it as bite attack (so bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing), and DR would apply...but as it does not target anyone thing, but does damage to everything in a given area, so it would still be able to damage a swarm.
In my mind, kind of like, stone call. It does bludgeoning damage to everyone in the area, and that damage is lowered by DR all the same.
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They damage every creature in the area they occupy, isn't that the definition of area effect?
AFAIK, Area of Effect damage is a specific game mechanic/term and must be called out by whatever is doing it. Sure, logically speak, you could call what a swarm does area effecting damage, but from a purely rules perspective, I don't think you can call it AoE.
I realize we're arguing semantics, but as we all know, terms/definitions have a very specific function in Pathfinder and don't necessarily have to follow to a logical conclusion.You are correct that DR does reduce swarm damage, but tiny swarms are only immune to "weapon" damage, which shouldn't include swarm damage (but strangely might also allow unarmed attacks to damage them, which would be odd).
The problem is that swarm damage is not defined. So we have to assume it falls into one of three categories...
(1) it is area of effect damage...I happen to disagree with this because it is not defined anywhere in any swarm traits. See my comment above
(2) it is natural/weapon damage...I happen to agree with this because logically speaking, that is what is happening. Thousands of bite/sting attacks combining to effectively one damage
(3) It is untyped...which would be weird
Since swarm traits specifically call out that DR would apply, which is essential weapon (including natural) damage, the logical choice seems to be #2.
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Okay, I want a post that can be FAQ'd and puts these questions in one place. I encourage everyone to tag this FAQ.
So with respect to swarms...
(1) What type of damage is a swarm attack?
Is it untyped? Natural(bite/sting/other)? Area of Effect? Other?
(2) Would two swarms (fine/diminutive) be able to damage each other?
If the damage they do is considered a form of natural/weapon attack, that would seem to mean that their normal immunity would kick in and they would be unable to harm each other.
(3) If two swarms wish to attack the same medium (or smaller) sized target, can they? Essentially entering the same space (square)?
(4) Assuming the answer to #3 is yes, do the two swarms continue to function as two separate creatures each with their own attack, resolved normally?
Or do they become one larger swarm? If the latter, how does their stat block change?
(1) it's "swarm" damage. It's its own thing.
(3) swarms "can an occupy the same space as a creature of any size"
Swarm Attack: Creatures with the swarm subtype don't make standard melee attacks. Instead, they deal automatic damage to any creature whose space they occupy at the end of their move, with no attack roll needed. Swarm attacks are not subject to a miss chance for concealment or cover. A swarm's statistics block has “swarm” in the Melee entry, with no attack bonus given. The amount of damage a swarm deals is based on its Hit Dice, as shown below.
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Since this came up in relation to swarms:
What happens when a small air elemental whirlwinds base intersects a single square of a swarm, and the swarm fails both saves.
The Swarm is a an amalgamation of tiny or smaller creatures, they can be sucked up. Since the amalgamation is a large creature it can not.
So does it:
1. Have no effect beyond damage x 1.5 (it is area damage after all)
2. deal 1.5 x damage and also suck up one square of the swarm, reducing it to three squares (and presumably splitting it's hit points between the square in the whirlwind and the 3 squares on the ground?)
3. suck up the whole swarm.
Yes it is your favorite two ambiguous rulesets, swarms and elementals.
Just to be clear, you do not have to have an area attack in order to damage fine or diminutive swarms. They are vulnerable to area attacks, but can be harmed by any damage that does not target a specific number of creatures. Swarm damage works just fine, regardless. Whether it deals +50% damage or not is an open question.
And fwiw, DR =/= weapon damage (as noted by Sniggevert above).