Goblin Squad Member
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I would say that at this point all the active posters have more than clearly aired their opinions.
If people who have not already posted in this thread would like to speak, I would like to hear them. If you've already said your piece, I'd ask that you now stop posting here and let's see what some other people have to say.
This thread is yo-yoing between being a well behaved dispute between community members about an important topic, and a toxic exchange of rhetoric. For those who have expressed your opinions, I thank you. It is now time to hear from new voices.
Here is another point that Hobs was talking about.
Asking people to stop posting.
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Goblin Squad Member
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<snip>If it is one Guild, Golgatha should not be on the leaderboard.<snip><snip>
In this one he says if they are all the same then Golgotha should not be on the leader board.
So, for the most part, are you saying that the specific words I pointed out above in Ryan's quote are what you're holding against him?
It does vaguely suggest action, but only because the person it's coming from has the power to do something about this "should."
I still feel it's kinda putting words in his mouth that he will actually do something about this "should."
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Xeen we've heard your voice already in this thread. It's time to create space for new voices. Thanks.
Here is where he told me specifically to stop posting. Even though some of his sycophants had also continued to post. Even though my question was relevant to the topic and in no way an opinion.... In fact if he would have just answered it, it would have continued to drive that meaningful human interaction.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To me, the question that confronts the community is not the question of moving votes from one group to another. The question should be "is Pax one guild, or several?"
If it is one guild, then no member of Pax, regardless of the history or timeline of that membership should vote for any guild but Pax Aeturnum.
If it is several guilds, then there's no meaningful problem except in the case of people who voted for Pax Aeturnum in Phase I and subsequently shifted their votes in Phase II. It would be scrupulous for Pax Aterunum to clearly tell its members not to vote for anyone but Pax Aeturnum, but that's just optics.
And frankly, I don't necessarily think Pax' opinion about their structure is the defining one. Perception will be the reality in this case.
Hmmm, Nowhere did he allude to a judgement you say?
Perceptions and all...
If he is going to pose things like this to conversations, then he needs to be clear that this is just a discussion topic and not a judgement.
How is this post, in any way, shape, or form, alluding to judgement??
He states his opinion and what he would like to see happen; never ONCE does he say "If the community says so, Goblinworks will answer."
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Xeen we've heard your voice already in this thread. It's time to create space for new voices. Thanks.Here is where he told me specifically to stop posting. Even though some of his sycophants had also continued to post. Even though my question was relevant to the topic and in no way an opinion.... In fact if he would have just answered it, it would have continued to drive that meaningful human interaction.
Because you have a well-known affinity for being abrasive, rude, overbearing, and intimidating.
When you hold a thread in your grip, it is very difficult for other people to wade in. He was attempting to make it feel safer for those other people to have a say too.
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Goblin Squad Member
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<snip>If it is one Guild, Golgatha should not be on the leaderboard.<snip><snip>
In this one he says if they are all the same then Golgotha should not be on the leader board.So, for the most part, are you saying that the specific words I pointed out above in Ryan's quote are what you're holding against him?
It does vaguely suggest action, but only because the person it's coming from has the power to do something about this "should."
I still feel it's kinda putting words in his mouth that he will actually do something about this "should."
To me and many others, with the community deciding if Pax was one group or not. That he would tell Golgotha to remove themselves if the community deemed them as one group.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Xeen we've heard your voice already in this thread. It's time to create space for new voices. Thanks.Here is where he told me specifically to stop posting. Even though some of his sycophants had also continued to post. Even though my question was relevant to the topic and in no way an opinion.... In fact if he would have just answered it, it would have continued to drive that meaningful human interaction.Because you have a well-known affinity for being abrasive, rude, overbearing, and intimidating.
When you hold a thread in your grip, it is very difficult for other people to wade in. He was attempting to make it feel safer for those other people to have a say too.
Ahh I see, because I am an a@+&$!~ got it. But its ok if others are a%%*@~$s so long as they are passive aggressive about it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There's no grey area on the rules and admonitions. The only grey area is "Is Pax one Guild, or Several?"If it is one Guild, Golgatha should not be on the leaderboard.
If it is more than one Guild, then nobody who voted in Phase I for Pax should vote for anyone but Pax Aeturnum, players who intend to play with Pax Aeturnum should only vote for Pax Aeturnum, and Golgatha is free to be on the leaderboard and recruit anyone else to vote for them except people who intend to play with The Seventh Veil and The Empyrean Order.
RyanD
Oh look, there is more.
So in his previous post I quoted, he says let the community decide.
In this one he says if they are all the same then Golgotha should not be on the leader board.
Ok, I'll give you that one. That one was pretty foggy. It implied that maybe, possibly, if there was a strong enough vote against Golgotha, they would get pulled without ever contradicting that no judgment would be made by him. Maybe he would have, we'll never know.
Ryan of course is human and the problem with coming down and waddling into the these frays is that we hang on his every word. I do understand that this is an imperfect science and that hopefully Ryan will get better at it just like we will.
But that's a far, far cry from calling Ryan the worst community manager of all time or a villain.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would say that at this point all the active posters have more than clearly aired their opinions.
If people who have not already posted in this thread would like to speak, I would like to hear them. If you've already said your piece, I'd ask that you now stop posting here and let's see what some other people have to say.
This thread is yo-yoing between being a well behaved dispute between community members about an important topic, and a toxic exchange of rhetoric. For those who have expressed your opinions, I thank you. It is now time to hear from new voices.
Here is another point that Hobs was talking about.
Asking people to stop posting.
The moment people start seeing him as referee and not as judge, things will get MUCH clearer for them. I promise. The above is a perfect example.
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I hope you guys get to play soon cause it's getting hillarious for us lurkers *shakes head*.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To me, the question that confronts the community is not the question of moving votes from one group to another. The question should be "is Pax one guild, or several?"
If it is one guild, then no member of Pax, regardless of the history or timeline of that membership should vote for any guild but Pax Aeturnum.
If it is several guilds, then there's no meaningful problem except in the case of people who voted for Pax Aeturnum in Phase I and subsequently shifted their votes in Phase II. It would be scrupulous for Pax Aterunum to clearly tell its members not to vote for anyone but Pax Aeturnum, but that's just optics.
And frankly, I don't necessarily think Pax' opinion about their structure is the defining one. Perception will be the reality in this case.
Hmmm, Nowhere did he allude to a judgement you say?
Perceptions and all...
If he is going to pose things like this to conversations, then he needs to be clear that this is just a discussion topic and not a judgement.
Absolutely not.
People on both sides interpreted that wrongly, not Ryans fault. I saw and still see it very clearly as Ryan trying to push the debate into relevance. As long as we are debating relevant topics, they are going to let us have at it.
the debate was never relevant. The reason I quoted the PM from Ryan to begin with with a show that he told us that he wouldn't remove Golgotha from the land rush.
after discussing the rest of the contents of that PM (which I did not take out of context) the golgothans decided that they did not share Ryan's concerns about big shadowy organizations coming into the game and that they would not remove themselves from the land rush. That was deacon and the rest of his leadership call to leave them there. Nobody elses. Golgotha alone has thousands of dollars tied up in early enrollment, why would they not want to vote for their settlement? that entire thread was completely worthless. It might have given a few people the opportunity to get up on her high horse and espouse the virtues of the community they want to create, but it had absolutely no relevance to Golgotha's place on the land rush, because that had already been decided. And then the question of whether pax is to deal with her more than one guild one guild or whatever, that is also not relevant. Thats not this community's call to make. How pax gaming this defines guild and how everybody else defines guild is clearly different (at least when it suits people here). We are not going to change our definitions to make people here happy. We already have long standing, clear, and concise definitions for things and we don't leave things wrapped up in platitudes and vagaries like other people do.
forgive misspellings and grammar errors, typing from a phone sucks.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nobody's said he's the worst community manager of all time. All Hobs did was say, "I think that could have been handled better." I personally agree with this sentiment, though I'd like to say that I don't think the way it was handled is necessarily wrong, or that in his position I could handle it better, or anything like that. Maybe others feel stronger on the subject than I do.
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...Golgotha alone has thousands of dollars tied up in early enrollment, why would they not want to vote for their settlement? that entire thread was completely worthless.
YOU make think it was worthless, but many don't share that opinion.
MANY guilds have 'thousands of dollars' tied up in EE, but STILL CHOSE to abide by the spirit of the game and the rules.
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Goblin Squad Member
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<snip>If it is one Guild, Golgatha should not be on the leaderboard.<snip><snip>
In this one he says if they are all the same then Golgotha should not be on the leader board.So, for the most part, are you saying that the specific words I pointed out above in Ryan's quote are what you're holding against him?
It does vaguely suggest action, but only because the person it's coming from has the power to do something about this "should."
I still feel it's kinda putting words in his mouth that he will actually do something about this "should."
To me and many others, with the community deciding if Pax was one group or not. That he would tell Golgotha to remove themselves if the community deemed them as one group.
I think what we're running into might simply be a misinterpretation. Which is not solely your fault, or anyone else who had the same. I think it's both Ryan's fault, and those who misinterpreted him. We all know the saying about "assume." Admittedly, I was among you for a while too, so don't think I'm trying to be Mr. Righteous here.
I think it is far too easy to read into Ryan's words and interpret them as (in a nutshell):
"I'd really like to see what the community has to say about this. Let's let the community decide your fate, and then we'll act on that decision. And Xeen and others should shut up so that we can get a broader sample of opinions here."
However, after everything said and done, I can see that his intent was more likely along the lines of:
"I'd really like to see what the community has to say about this. Some people want to hold your actions up on a giant pedestal and let them throw stones at you, if those with stones feel that it is the right thing to do. And I'm going to allow this behavior, so long as the stones are not too sharp and they don't start throwing them at each other. And we're going to call this meaningful player interactions: letting people formulate opinions about groups in the game, causing social unrest, and seeing whether or not they want to do something about it."
But again, it seems like most of us took it as words backed by potential actions.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ahh I see, because I am an a@@*&~@ got it. But its ok if others are a+@#&#%s so long as they are passive aggressive about it.@Xeen we've heard your voice already in this thread. It's time to create space for new voices. Thanks.Here is where he told me specifically to stop posting. Even though some of his sycophants had also continued to post. Even though my question was relevant to the topic and in no way an opinion.... In fact if he would have just answered it, it would have continued to drive that meaningful human interaction.Because you have a well-known affinity for being abrasive, rude, overbearing, and intimidating.
When you hold a thread in your grip, it is very difficult for other people to wade in. He was attempting to make it feel safer for those other people to have a say too.
If Nihimon, or me, or ANY other person had been as derisive and had the same history of rudeness that you have, I GUARANTEE they would have got the same post as you did.
You lie in the bed you make, Xeen.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...Golgotha alone has thousands of dollars tied up in early enrollment, why would they not want to vote for their settlement? that entire thread was completely worthless.YOU make think it was worthless, but many don't share that opinion.
MANY guilds have 'thousands of dollars' tied up in EE, but STILL CHOSE to abide by the spirit of the game and the rules.
you guys can feel free to continue debating what pax guilds should do and what pax guild shouldn't do or what golgotha should ornshouldnt do, but its not going to change what we're going to do. Have fun with your worthless debate.
the rule stated that if you voted for a landrush 1 Guild that one, do not vote. No members of pax aeternum landrush one voted for anybody other guild than aeternum in land rush two. Fact. No rules we're broken.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ahh I see, because I am an a@@*&~@ got it. But its ok if others are a+@#&#%s so long as they are passive aggressive about it.@Xeen we've heard your voice already in this thread. It's time to create space for new voices. Thanks.Here is where he told me specifically to stop posting. Even though some of his sycophants had also continued to post. Even though my question was relevant to the topic and in no way an opinion.... In fact if he would have just answered it, it would have continued to drive that meaningful human interaction.Because you have a well-known affinity for being abrasive, rude, overbearing, and intimidating.
When you hold a thread in your grip, it is very difficult for other people to wade in. He was attempting to make it feel safer for those other people to have a say too.
If Nihimon, or me, or ANY other person had been as derisive and had the same history of rudeness that you have, I GUARANTEE they would have got the same post as you did.
You lie in the bed you make, Xeen.
And you lie in yours
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Goblin Squad Member
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you guys can feel free to continue debating what pax guilds should do and what pax guild shouldn't do or what golgotha should ornshouldnt do, but its not going to change what we're going to do. Have fun with your worthless debate.
Yes Rawn, we know that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...Golgotha alone has thousands of dollars tied up in early enrollment, why would they not want to vote for their settlement? that entire thread was completely worthless.YOU make think it was worthless, but many don't share that opinion.
MANY guilds have 'thousands of dollars' tied up in EE, but STILL CHOSE to abide by the spirit of the game and the rules.
you guys can feel free to continue debating what pax guilds should do and what pax guild shouldn't do or what golgotha should ornshouldnt do, but its not going to change what we're going to do. Have fun with your worthless debate.
the rule stated that if you voted for a landrush 1 Guild that one, do not vote. No members of pax aeternum landrush one voted for anybody other guild than aeternum in land rush two. Fact. No rules we're broken.
If I'm not mistaken, that debate isn't present here. Fundamentally, it seems to be a debate about what Ryan did or did not.
I'll happily take 5 settlements, but I'm ok with just 1 aswell.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Nobody's said he's the worst community manager of all time. All Hobs did was say, "I think that could have been handled better." I personally agree with this sentiment, though I'd like to say that I don't think the way it was handled is necessarily wrong, or that in his position I could handle it better, or anything like that. Maybe others feel stronger on the subject than I do.
I won't say that he's the worst community manager ever, because he's not one. He's the CEO. Community managers should be handling things like this. Members of the community should not be told to stop posting when asking for a perfectly reasonable clarification on something. Customers should also never be publicly singled out and told to stop posting by a Goblinworks staff member. That's the sort of thing you do in private. Paizo's mod staff is pretty great in the way they moderate. It should have been handled more along the lines they handle things.
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The pve content will be limited in EE.
Competing with each other will be the main source of content in PFO.
I think you all give Ryan far too little credit.
In one single thread he has managed to stir up enough animosity to fuel a good lot of "content" for the game.
Perhaps enough so no one will notice its shortcomings until far enough into EE that Ryan & co will have had the time they need to address those shortcomings and flesh out the game.
What some of you see as incompetence I see as sheer brilliance.
Or dumb luck.. :=)
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First off, the thread was pretty mild compared to many I've seen on other MMO forums. However, I can understand the level of angst some in the PAX community. Feeling like you are being attacked by others as a player and having uncertainty about whether your are going to have something you are emotionaly invested in taken away from you is not fun.
Secondly, I also think the communication from GW on the issue was not as good as it should have been. One thing I've learned over the years is that no matter how clear you think you are being, if the people who are your customers still don't understand you....you are not being clear enough.
I read everything in that thread including all the communication from GW and there definately was a significant period of time when I thought GW was looking at the opinions posted in the thread with the consideration of having them influence a decision by GW as to whether it would remove Golgotha from the leaderboard. Clearly that was an unfounded assumption and misunderstanding on my part.... but I was also clearly far from being the only one. As someone who wasn't part of PAX, it wasn't a big deal to me....but I'm sure it was very uncomfortable for the folks with something actualy at stake. What was needed was a very quick response to definitively clear that misunderstanding up, letting people now that they could voice thier opinions but it wouldn't have any effect on what GW would do in this case. Ryan, you did that...but IMO, it was too late in coming.
Ryan, I respect you greatly but I also think you guys haven't been as clear at communication as you seem to think you have on quite a few issues, including this one. Consider that a form of constructive crowd-forging from a player and a customer... not an attack on you are GW. I certainly appreciate the hard work that you all do and the difficulty of running an enterprise like this. Thanks!
First off, the thread was pretty mild compared to many I've seen on other MMO forums. However, I can understand the level of angst some in the PAX community. Feeling like you are being attacked by others as a player and having uncertainty about whether your are going to have something you are emotionaly invested in taken away from you is not fun.
Secondly, I also think the communication from GW on the issue was not as good as it should have been. One thing I've learned over the years is that no matter how clear you think you are being, if the people who are your customers still don't understand you....you are not being clear enough.
I read everything in that thread including all the communication from GW and there definately was a significant period of time when I thought GW was looking at the opinions posted in the thread with the consideration of having them influence a decision by GW as to whether it would remove Golgotha from the leaderboard. Clearly that was an unfounded assumption and misunderstanding on my part.... but I was also clearly far from being the only one. As someone who wasn't part of PAX, it wasn't a big deal to me....but I'm sure it was very uncomfortable for the folks with something actualy at stake. What was needed was a very quick response to definitively clear that misunderstanding up, letting people now that they could voice thier opinions but it wouldn't have any effect on what GW would do in this case. Ryan, you did that...but IMO, it was too late in coming.
Ryan, I respect you greatly but I also think you guys haven't been as clear at communication as you seem to think you have on quite a few issues, including this one. Consider that a form of constructive crowd-forging from a player and a customer... not an attack on you are GW. I certainly appreciate the hard work that you all do and the difficulty of running an enterprise like this. Thanks!
If nearly everyone made the same conclusion then it wasn't a misunderstanding. It was a miscommunication.
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The pve content will be limited in EE.
Competing with each other will be the main source of content in PFO.
I think you all give Ryan far too little credit.
In one single thread he has managed to stir up enough animosity to fuel a good lot of "content" for the game.
Perhaps enough so no one will notice its shortcomings until far enough into EE that Ryan & co will have had the time they need to address those shortcomings and flesh out the game.
What some of you see as incompetence I see as sheer brilliance.
Or dumb luck.. :=)
If that were true, it would be the worst way imaginable of stirring up "content". I'm perfectly content playing a game where I get killed every 20 seconds and had my stuff taken....it's only pixels and it's a game. However I would have no interest in playing a game where people were acting out of a sense of personal animosity of me as a human being for something that happaned out of game. That's no fun....and if PFO became that I wouldn't be hanging around for long. Who wants to sit down and play a game with someone that hates your guts? Even if you win, it's just a game but you've wasted an hour being around someone that's unpleasant and unfreindly.
I really don't think that is what Ryan was doing here, at least not if he's serious about making sure PFO isn't a toxic community. Out of game conflict tends to breed toxicity.
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I don't understand what this thread is trying to accomplish. I am not being dismissive, I am genuinely unsure what Hobs wants Ryan to do.
Do you not want Ryan to talk to us anymore, or do you want him to hire a lawyer to proof read any statement he makes to ensure that it can't be misinterpreted? Do you just want him to be nicer, to baby your feelings?
Yes, we all gave GW money. So what? I have given plenty of money to other companies to play their games and I never felt entitled enough to address the CEO personally.
Be thankful that Ryan cares so much about this game that he is engaged in the community. I am not saying that you shouldn't voice concerns, just make sure that they are valid ones.
If the only thing you guys are complaining about is that the CEO of the company, making a game that you really really want to play is not being as clear or as nice as you want him to be when he regularly communicates with you...
You need to go take a walk in a park and reflect about life.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If the only thing you guys are complaining about is that the CEO of the company, making a game that you really really want to play is not being as clear or as nice as you want him to be when he regularly communicates with you...You need to go take a walk in a park and reflect about life.
I think you're understating the importance of clarity in the company/customer relationship. Especially since we've had a long wait to get our hands on product that we've already paid for.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I think you're understating the importance of clarity in the company/customer relationship. Especially since we've had a long wait to get our hands on product that we've already paid for.
If the only thing you guys are complaining about is that the CEO of the company, making a game that you really really want to play is not being as clear or as nice as you want him to be when he regularly communicates with you...You need to go take a walk in a park and reflect about life.
Except for the fact that by utilizing Kickstarter you were not directly pre-ordering a game. You were showing your support for a product you wanted to see come into existance and are getting rewards for your support that Kickstarter does not guarantee you will recieve. Now if you purchased things via the Paizo pledge manager that could be an entirely different story.
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Absolutely not.
People on both sides interpreted that wrongly, not Ryans fault. I saw and still see it very clearly as Ryan trying to push the debate into relevance. As long as we are debating relevant topics, they are going to let us have at it.
I agree that people interpreted Ryan's statement wrongly.
But doesn't the fact that so many on both sides were confused kind of indicate that a more definitive statement should have been issued?
It reminds me of what a friend of mine used to say. "I'm not bad at communicating—people are bad at listening." I don't think she knows what communication means.
Personally, I misinterpreted his statement as saying, "I'm not gonna make a verdict, but we might consider taking action if there's a clear consensus."
Herdy dur mur flipty floopin. Yer der shmer dor her foomty, der shoopin flerpty dur.
Well? How else didja think we were gonna get him in this movie?
You lie in the bed you make, Xeen.
And you lie in yours
Is this flirting? Is this some sort of strange goblin/dwarf flirtation ritual?
I think you all give Ryan far too little credit.
In one single thread he has managed to stir up enough animosity to fuel a good lot of "content" for the game.
Wait, are we getting credit for trolling now?
...my time has come.
ROGUES AREN'T UNDERPOWERED
CRANE WING HAD IT COMING
FOURTH EDITION IS WAAAY BETTER (than AD&D)
KETCHUP IS A VEGETABLE
Where's my paycheck, Goblinworks?!
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On the Ryan subject, there was continued misunderstanding on what was happening by myself, and apparently quite a few others. Statements to the effect of "GW will do nothing" were followed by statements like "The discussion is whether Pax is one guild, and if it is Golgotha shouldn't be on the leader board."
Since the only people besides Golgotha who can take Golgotha off the leaderboard is GW, this leaves things confusing by implicating GW considers that an option. Otherwise, they simply wouldn't have posted, or would have posted saying what Ryan finally said, GW will never remove GW off the leaderboard regardless of how loud people whine. (approximation, not exact quote obviously.)
Add to that statements like, "there will be consequences" implies GW is in fact prepared to do something about it after-the-fact. Otherwise, consequences should never have been mentioned. After all, if they were referring to other guilds doing something, that's not consequences, that's content, so is obviously not what he was referring to.
It's all over and done, all I would ask going forward is that any GW statement be clear on if community input will cause action by GW in any given subject GW posts in.
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Add to that statements like, "there will be consequences" implies GW is in fact prepared to do something about it after-the-fact. Otherwise, consequences should never have been mentioned.
I think you nailed it right there. Not just in these posts but in blogs as well, when detrimental effects are mentioned it might sound at first like these will occur through game mechanics or GW taking action when in fact they are referring to the reaction of other players. It's a different train of thought than many are used to.
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the Kickstarter included copies of the game and in-game subscriptions. Those are what are required to even participate in the land rush. While it might not have been labeled as a 'pre-order' that's precisely what it was.
The nature of Kickstarters is that you are not guaranteed anything. The digital copies and in-game subscriptions were perks to get the Kickstarter to succeed.
Fortunately I doubt it would happen at this stage, but if GW was suddenly go belly up and PFO was cancelled it would just mean that all of us Kickstarter supporters will be out of money. That is the risk we take by supporting a Kickstarter.
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On the Ryan subject, there was continued misunderstanding on what was happening by myself, and apparently quite a few others. Statements to the effect of "GW will do nothing" were followed by statements like "The discussion is whether Pax is one guild, and if it is Golgotha shouldn't be on the leader board."
This is basically how I saw things, too. I felt like Ryan kept directing the conversation down specific paths and was soliciting particular opinions...for a reason.
If it's purely a community issue, let the community decide what the issue is, whether there's an issue at all, and if we want to talk about it. I felt the continued promptings by Ryan were adding fuel to the fire.That said, I'm not getting on any anti-Ryan trains as I think he does a very good job and his level of interaction with the community is far, far beyond what I've ever seen in an MMO, which is tremendously appreciated and a strength of PFO right now.
I voice my opinion here because if we're crowdforging this game, I figure community management is part of it.
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the Kickstarter included copies of the game and in-game subscriptions. Those are what are required to even participate in the land rush. While it might not have been labeled as a 'pre-order' that's precisely what it was.The nature of Kickstarters is that you are not guaranteed anything. The digital copies and in-game subscriptions were perks to get the Kickstarter to succeed.
Fortunately I doubt it would happen at this stage, but if GW was suddenly go belly up and PFO was cancelled it would just mean that all of us Kickstarter supporters will be out of money. That is the risk we take by supporting a Kickstarter.
That can happen to any pre-order as well though, anything can detonate before launch, it's not a kickstarter-only fear. I do recognize that Kickstarter would have a much higher possibility of this happening, though, and your point's well taken.
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Goblin Squad Member
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the Kickstarter included copies of the game and in-game subscriptions. Those are what are required to even participate in the land rush. While it might not have been labeled as a 'pre-order' that's precisely what it was.The nature of Kickstarters is that you are not guaranteed anything. The digital copies and in-game subscriptions were perks to get the Kickstarter to succeed.
Fortunately I doubt it would happen at this stage, but if GW was suddenly go belly up and PFO was cancelled it would just mean that all of us Kickstarter supporters will be out of money. That is the risk we take by supporting a Kickstarter.
In the FAQ for Kickstarter, it states that the company that starts the Kickstarter is legally obligated to fulfill any promised rewards, or provide a refund. Failure to do so is grounds for legal action. And everyone who starts a kickstarter has to agree to those terms.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We can all be the arm chair quarterback. I think GW sees that "part" of what happened was due to ambiguity. Personally, I don't think they could have been any clearer. Golgotha is still on the leader board because we followed the rules.
Things got hazy when comments like "we want to hear from other people".
Had Ryan said Golgotha could decide if it was in or out of the land rush? Yep. Does that mean he doesn't ever change his mind or the stance on GW? Nope.
Landrush 1 is a great example. It was flawed, they admitted it, but three groups out shined all the rest and got rewarded.
So there is a very real and pertinant precident for Ryan changing his mind about something that affects the whole community.
So what I think Ryan could have done in his "context" post was reaffirm that GW wouldn't keep Golgotha from participating, but it was important to have this conversation continue and do so in a civil manner. He basically said, here's the whole post, you kinda pissed me off because of x y and z. Will he take stuff like that into account next time? Who knows.
The take away is... Toxicity could have been curbed by one sentance that Ryan thought was understood. For us, the possibility for GW to change their minds was always there because of a precident.
Ryan, in the Army we have a phrase, "Double tap it to be sure" putting two rounds in the same target even if you think the first one did the job, so there is no doubt. Your last statement answering Xeen was that much needed second round. Pull the trigger a little sooner next time is all we ask.
And if no one has told you and GW recently, thank you for making the game we are all dying to play.
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Goblin Squad Member
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his level of interaction with the community is far, far beyond what I've ever seen in an MMO, which is tremendously appreciated and a strength of PFO right now.
This.
If you want our opinion on something, be clear about it, from the outset.
"Community, what is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? No, I will not throw anyone off a bridge as the result of this thread."
Then avoid rephrasing the question in such a way that implies the matter of bridge throwing may still up for debate after all.You want to get the lay of the land before making a ruling? Fine.
You are just curious about something and want our thoughts with no further ramifications whatsoever? Great!
You have a mechanic you want our input on? Even better!You want the community to tell someone 'no' when you have already given them tacit permission to ignore your preferences? Why in seven hels is the CEO of the game even asking the community to express their opinion for or against a player entity when they are not going to do a damned thing about it one way or the other?
This.
So, here's my advice to Ryan (and I hope he's still listening): If you want a community to discuss something this...tricky, be prepared to fire the Invisibility Gun at will at the more hostile posts. Especially the sock puppets.
And totally this. (taken from the "PAX <insert much whining here> thread")
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The point I was trying to make was that IMO we are showing our support for a project with the understanding that there is a lengthy wait to recieve rewards. Not to say that it wouldn't be harmful if GW just ignored us completely but I don't think we are 'entitled' to special considerations just because we showed our support for something early.
I think it is great that we are getting some of those special considerations like direct interaction with the developers and having some amount of say in the way things are built out but it isn't a 'right' that we have obtained just because we gave them money before a product is real. This was in relation to your reply of:
Especially since we've had a long wait to get our hands on product that we've already paid for.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Its true about thr money.
If some small guild comes in and have only spend 1000 dollars, and Gol have spend 5000, then i think Gol deserves 5 settlements.
And if a single player spent the same $5k they deserve 5 settlements too? Some individuals have spent more than some collective guilds.