I think this is a fantastic move (not quite as fantastic as declaring a licensing scheme that'll allow 3PPs to freely create 5e material, but still pretty fantastic.)
It looks like it'll (hopefully) be a fairly complete (as much as any other typical single-rulebook RPG is) game in itself, and can be used to play purchased modules. As someone that prefers a rules-light game, that sounds to me like a good move that allows both styles of play because you get to choose which rule system (Basic or the three $50 rulebooks) you plug those modules into (and I hope Paizo are watching as I'd love to see something similar done for Pathfinder - essentially a stripped-down simplified PRD)
Both the recent announcement that the beginner set isn't going to allow character creation, and the staggered release of the core books, now make sense as this fills the gaps (either temporarily or permanently as you see fit) in both cases.
I get the impression that the basic D&D pdf will contain an assortment of core monsters, but not as many as you get if you buy the monster manual, as well as some magic items and any important rules a DM needs to know. From the sounds of it you get pretty much everything you need to play a game of D&D, so it looks like a good option for anyone who wants to try out 5e but not commit to buying the core books.
Very commendable try before you buy
Well done
The title of this thread should reference that the basic rules are free. I think this is a pretty major point, and might get some people to join in who were on the fence previously.
I think this is great. I am guessing it would be pretty rules-light and deliver on the designers' promise of players being able to scale the system's complexity.
The Pathfinder Reference Document is also available online for free, but it's not in an easily-printable format and it's meant to be more of a reference and not an introduction to the game.
I'm glad to see D&D 5E taking steps that can expand the reach of the hobby and thus the player base for both D&D and PF.
I'm wonder how much art this pdf will have. I'm also hoping that it is well bookmarked. It it isn't it's utility we be vastly reduced.
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Hopefully this will be a good offering and a way to get people back to Basic D&D (if it really is Basic D&D).
I really do hope they push this tiered complexity and gameplay detail as part of 5e. I got tired of Wotc and Paizo's "one size fits all fantasy gaming" approach several years ago.
I'm curious to see what kind of support this gets and how they are going to market a multi-tiered system (if they really are going to go that route)?
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Maybe you and I read are reading a different article Jeff.
Basic D&D is a PDF that covers the core of the game. It’s the equivalent of the old D&D Rules Cyclopedia, though it doesn’t have quite the same scope (for example, it won’t go into detail on a setting). It runs from levels 1 to 20 and covers the cleric, fighter, rogue, and wizard, presenting what we view as the essential subclass for each. It also provides the dwarf, elf, halfling, and human as race options.
The Rule Cyclopedia was a complete game. Basic D&D = Rules Cyclopedia sans setting means that it should function as a complete game.
Basic, but on par with the original RC.Now of course what they actually release may end up being a very incomplete download, we won't know for sure till it comes out - but assuming he is telling the truth and based on his description it sounds like they are releasing D&D Basic for free next month.
I'm not sure what you mean by "not tiered" - as it's not part of their tier structure? Because at its roots, basic (or 0E - two slightly different approaches) are as bottom tier as you can get. You add layers of detail and complexity to get AD&D and then incorperate a d20 universal mechanic (and screw up a bunch of other things) to get 3rd ed.
Can't believe I'm actually defending Mearls or Wotc on this one, I should probably give my Dr. a call.
I feel sick.
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This'll be interesting to see. The basic rules are about the only thing I'm still interested in looking at out of 5th (the playtest quelled any desire I may have had for the full rules).
If they actually deliver complexity on par with the Rules Compendium, with some updates... I'd actually happily buy that. But I guess I won't have to in either case.
Cheers!
Landon
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I'm pretty geeked about this development. I love simple, rules light gaming so being able to get that for free AND as part of the currently supported system (retro-clone stuff is free but rather niche and hard to find games for) of one of the major players in TTRPG's is very exciting.
I just hope that the complexity is as low as the name "Basic D&D" conjures up in my mind. You young whippersnappers can keep your skills and feats, thank you very much.
I think this is a really good idea, especially since they plan to expand the scope to include more DM content and monsters.
My impression is this book is the complete core "basic" rules of the game and is a complete system you can play with. It obviously won't have a lot of the character options. I suspect it won't have a lot of the background material for example. But, if I'm starting a game, I can certainly tell all of my prospective players who might not have the PHB to just go there and read the basic book for free and they'll know the mechanics of the game.
It would be nice if they had an option for a cheap, soft cover print on demand version of this book once it reaches steady state but I'm guessing that is unlikely.
I'm hoping now that the core of the game is finalized that we'll also see a free PDF on dndclassics that gives conversion guidelines to using all of the older edition products out there.
I wonder if when the PHB, DMG and MM release whether there will be PDFs for purchase of those books on dndclassics and if so how much they'll charge.
I wonder if we'll see a new SRD to assist play as well, even if locked behind the DDI wall - and/or an app to provide similar support.
Can't believe I'm actually defending Mearls or Wotc on this one, I should probably give my Dr. a call.
I feel sick.
Nah, you're defending the truth as you see it...no reason to feel sick.
He does compare with the old Rules Cyclopedia, but I didn't take the same thing from it you did. I don't think for example, that this "Basic" will get its own setting, adventures and supplement support. It's just a stripped down version of the real game, given away to hook you.
It'll be playable on its own, if that's what you mean by "complete game".
To me, it sounds more like the PF Beginner Box than like Basic. Except that it apparently will have all levels, but even less classes and races. Differently limited.
I believe their plan is to release a PDF with each adventure giving ou what you need to add to the basic rules in order to play it. (Given their recent setting books, I suspect those will be usable without any accompanying PDF).
That's a nice solution to providing support to those who like a simple game. As I understand it, you'll be able to play all their adventures without paying anything for the rules part.
It's definitely limited in number of options, but my reading of it was that it will be a complete, supported game.
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Except you don't really add to Basic to get AD&D. You change a bunch of rules. Take some stuff away. Add some other stuff in. Basic was a different game. It wasn't a cut down version of AD&D. They were both different evolutions of the original.
At the time that was the common perception because gamers are fanatics. In truth, Basic is a stripped down version of AD&D (with some minor differences). These differences are so minor that you could run a basic mod using AD&D/2nd AD&D rules and vice versa - you can't do that with 3rd and any of these earlier editions without some major revisions to your module. Yes, elves were a class and shadows were not undead, I got it - same with level 1 clerics not being able to cast spells - I did that in '80. Basic is truly Basic in that you have a core game (and mechanic) that is what AD&D is based off of (actually 0E), I don't care about the minor race/class nonsense between versions - these are trivial differences. It's nothing compared to gulf that exists between 0E/Basic/Advanced/Advanced 2nd as a group vs. 3rd/d20 gaming.
He does compare with the old Rules Cyclopedia, but I didn't take the same thing from it you did. I don't think for example, that this "Basic" will get its own setting, adventures and supplement support. It's just a stripped down version of the real game, given away to hook you.
I'm not getting this: you need someone else to write a setting for you so you can run a game or for you to define it as "complete"? Or is it the issue of support?
When the first big 3 books came out, even the Blue Box basic (Erol Otus cover) there were no established settings - at least nothing that was substantial. There were references to Greyhawk in the original DMG and some detail to Mystara (before it was Mystara) in the Isle of Dread (Expert). I ran my game for at least a year before I got the Greyhawk folio (with two maps) in 1982 (yeah, it came out in '80 - I bought what the local hobby stores carried - took me 2 years after release for it to get into my hands - had the maps laminated).
Same goes for supplement support for both - Basic got it in the form of Expert while AD&D got it via Dragon mag articles - or books released at a snails pace. None of which hurt the game.
What would hurt this as a standalone game would be the module support (or lack therof), that is where I can see their being a problem for people jumping on this and going "all in" on a true Basic set.
It'll be playable on its own, if that's what you mean by "complete game".
Yes, that's what I mean by "complete game".
To me, it sounds more like the PF Beginner Box than like Basic. Except that it apparently will have all levels, but even less classes and races. Differently limited.
No, PFs beginner box was fixed/limited use product - similar to the original Basic in scope (less so really) but lacking modules and an Expert set (something TSR did with Basic). So you are left with nowhere to go but to transition to PF Core. With the original Basic ed, you had modules, an Expert set and then some serious support as it developed a fan base that was separate from AD&D. Not as much as AD&D, but nothing compared to the PF basic box. What are we getting from Paizo soon - a guidebook book to help transition Beginner Box players to Core PF and a guide for new players (Core). Paizo's endeavors on this matter were just to draw in people to their Core game. I'm assuming they would have figured there would be an outpouring of people who wanted more from the Beginner Box (mod, support) style of play, but I haven’t seen any signs that its going to happen.
I can't comment on how "differently limited" this is going to be until I see it.
If there are chunks of data missing (only a few magic items, spells and creatures) they yes, I would say it is limited in use. If they have content for all 20 levels of play - spells, items, monsters then it might be the kind of "limited" that people are looking for.
Less classes and races was what Basic was partially about - I mean if you stuck with it instead of going with AD&D it was an experience that you as the DM or player were looking for. My group alternated between systems and we frequently ran Basic/Expert modules under the AD&D system with Zero revisions or changes (Master of the Desert Nomands - epic).
I am hopeful but ready to be dissapointed. Let's wait and see.
I hope this is useful and really a "complete basic set". I can recall a few instances of Wizards leaving out really obvious and popular options from initial products apparently solely to require the purchase of the next set of products. I'm looking at you 4e. So unless it is full of obvious holes I will be happy for the free pdf to get a taste of 5e.
I hope this is useful and really a "complete basic set". I can recall a few instances of Wizards leaving out really obvious and popular options from initial products apparently solely to require the purchase of the next set of products. I'm looking at you 4e. So unless it is full of obvious holes I will be happy for the free pdf to get a taste of 5e.
I think it will be complete for the parts that are included and in particular it will have all of the core mechanics.
So, it'll have the complete version of the fighter say, but only for the one subclass or couple subclasses they include in the basic book. The PHB will have extra subclasses.
It will have a complete version of the elf, but maybe not all subraces (high elf yes, wood elf maybe, drow probably not).
PHB will have more races (gnomes and half-orcs), more subraces (three types of halflings), more classes (rangers, druids, etc.), more subclasses, more equipment, more spells, etc. Optional mechanical subsystems will be here or in the DMG that aren't in the basic book. The MM will have many more monsters and possibly flavors of monsters versus the basic book, but most likely the entries in the basic book will exactly (or nearly so) match the MM version. They won't be nerfed or limited.
At least this is all my hope based on what I read in Mearl's article.
I hope this is useful and really a "complete basic set". I can recall a few instances of Wizards leaving out really obvious and popular options from initial products apparently solely to require the purchase of the next set of products. I'm looking at you 4e. So unless it is full of obvious holes I will be happy for the free pdf to get a taste of 5e.
One of my bigger gripes with the actual rules of 4E was that the PHB 1 was a little thin. Though I appreciated some of the additions (especially the Warlord), Druids and Gnomes really, really needed to be in there. And that's all I'll say about that. ;-)
If the heroes are fighting goblins in that picture, I approve. I do like the new art style we have seen thus far
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I think it's a brilliant move.
I wasn't even going to look at 5E ($50 for each of the 3 core books - are you kidding me!?!?!?), but for free, well, why not?
I wasn't even going to look at 5E ($50 for each of the 3 core books - are you kidding me!?!?!?), but for free, well, why not?
Oddly enough, the $50 price tag doesn't phase me, though I still think giving away the basic rules is a smart move.
I agree with Legendarius in terms of what the "basic" version will offer. It won't be a different version of the game, it will just have less options- ie a more limited list of feats, spells, classes, races, magic items, monsters etc... The core books will have all of the same stuff plus a bunch more content. Therefore there won't be any compatibility issues with the basic pdf and the core books, just fewer choices.
It looks good. The Basic D&D PDF will have the core features of the game for zip. Anything necessary to play their adventures gets added as free PDFs. The ensuing 3 core books will add more options. If you hadn't noticed earlier information the Gamemaster's Handbook includes options like a spell point system to replace the regular magic system, a tactical combat module etc. Pretty much what they said they would do in terms of options and free at the basic end.
Overall I like the whole idea for a couple of reasons:
1) It gets people interested in the game and they can try it out for free. This, to me, is a big reason why I think they're doing this. If people like the basic game with genre-centric elements there's a good chance they'll buy into MORE options and adventures.
2) It's not the OGL. While it doesn't mean that there won't be an OGL in the future, I can only hope that they pass on that overall. I'm not opposed to free stuff and Get a TON of uses out of things like the SRD, Pathfinder's SRD, and D&D Tools but to be perfectly fair, it gives me ZERO incentive to buy their products. I've YET to purchase a Paizo product and I have many Pathfinder Characters and have played in many games that do NOT use any of their actual books. Maybe that's fine for Paizo, but I don't think it would be fine for D&D.
3) Their selection of races and classes falls in line to what I feel is the core part of the game since it's inception. And because of that, people will instantly relate to these options "as D&D" or " Feels like D&D" rather than shadow-jaunting Assassins or Warforged Druids who can turn into Animals ala Transformers: Beast Wars (which, honestly is freakin' awesome and something I'd totally do in a D&D game). Not only that but they're options that represent a HUGE portion of the genre overall. Someone can look at ANY of the options provided in the Basic set and say "Hey, we could do a fun Lord of the Rings game with this!!"
4) It easily ties into the Advanced game. From playing multiple packets and the last one the longest, I think that a focused Warrior Fighter who might not even grab feats is perfectly in-line with a possible Battle Master Fighter or a Fighter who grabs ALL the feats or multiclasses. Mainly because a Basic Fighter is still a viable option at an Advanced game's table. They've made it abundantly clear from the packets and info that ALL the parts of the game are compatible with the overall focus of the system. And in this instance, Basic just means a limited focus on what's achievable via character options and expected monsters. I doubt the basic game will host a plethora of magical weapons and armor either. More likely you'll get some +1's or +2's of generic items and maybe even a way for the DM to create his own (or maybe even use the Playtest Packet's info for that) and a few well-known items like Flametongue or a Dwarven Thrower.
and last...
5) I think this will keep a LOT of the older edition holdouts happy. I'm speaking about the ones who don't like a TON of rules or systems or classes to exist at their table. Some have a really strong opinion about things like Maneuvers and DS mechanics being options in the books and I think the Basic game is going to weed most of those options out for their convenience. That way a person who prefers a Basic game doesn't have to worry about himself or his players buying the PHB and he can still get the Monster Manual and DMG and buy adventures if they want. And I think, because the conversion to older modules is relatively simple, they can continue to play with those adventures quite easily with minimal time invested in making it work mechanically.
A great way to tide me over until I can grab the core set! This is a gutsy move on Wizards' behalf, and I approve wholeheartedly.
I'm very gratified to see Basic as a free pdf. I still plan on buying the 3 core books, but now I'm curious as to whether Advanced material will be compatible with the Basic pdf without the core (sorry, Standard) set.
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I wasn't even going to look at 5E ($50 for each of the 3 core books - are you kidding me!?!?!?), but for free, well, why not?Oddly enough, the $50 price tag doesn't phase me, though I still think giving away the basic rules is a smart move.
$50 would not bother me if I was interested in the game. However, since I'm not particularly interested, I would not shell out $50.
$50/book would have kept me from even checking it out. Free does not prevent me from checking it out. :)
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One thing that I like about feats for 5e is that you can choose between taking a feat or doing an attribute boost. Thus, you can have one player at the table who has no interest in the added complexity of feats taking attribute boosts, while another player who enjoys the extra tinkering can take feats (and of course you can mix it up). I also get the sense that some sub classes will be more complex than others. All this suggests that players will have some freedom to decide individually how complex a game they want to play depending on the choices they make when they are levelling up.
I wasn't even going to look at 5E ($50 for each of the 3 core books - are you kidding me!?!?!?), but for free, well, why not?Oddly enough, the $50 price tag doesn't phase me, though I still think giving away the basic rules is a smart move.$50 would not bother me if I was interested in the game. However, since I'm not particularly interested, I would not shell out $50.
$50/book would have kept me from even checking it out. Free does not prevent me from checking it out. :)
I'm kind of in the same boat. Except that if I were still a fan of D&D I would have very little issue with the $50 price tag because bottom line it would be something that I wanted so I'd find a way to save/budget so that I could get it.
I'll check out the free rules with the intention of perusing them but I still pretty much have no interest in switching over. If I were going to switch over to another RPG it would be something else DIFFERENT. Like DCC or Savage Worlds or FATE or Dungeon World.
For those how aren't sure.
5e D&D will be split into 3 artificial tiers, I say artificial because there aren't realy any firm lines between them.
Basic D&D - This is going to be the most basic version of the game, the simplest character creation rule, only fighter, cleric, wizard and rogue and only humans, elves, dwarves and halfings. No feats, each class will have predetermined subclasses (all rogues will be thieves etc) and probably predetermined backgrounds. On the DM side you will have the most basic rules for exploration, combat and interaction with some magic items and some iconic monsters (orcs, a giant, a huge dragon etc).
All of this will be available for FREE on WotC site.
I'm not really sure where you heard there wouldn't be feats or predetermined backgrounds? From the Legends and Lore threat...
"Basic D&D is a PDF that covers the core of the game. It’s the equivalent of the old D&D Rules Cyclopedia, though it doesn’t have quite the same scope (for example, it won’t go into detail on a setting). It runs from levels 1 to 20 and covers the cleric, fighter, rogue, and wizard, presenting what we view as the essential subclass for each. It also provides the dwarf, elf, halfling, and human as race options."
It later goes to mention....
"If Basic D&D is the equivalent of the classic Rules Cyclopedia, then the three core rulebooks are analogous to Advanced Dungeons & Dragons. Want more character options? Pick up a Player’s Handbook. Looking for more critters for your campaign? The Monster Manual has you covered. Want to sculpt a unique campaign? Pick up the Dungeon Master’s Guide. Still, Basic D&D is the true heart of the game and could easily provide a lifetime of gaming.
At the launch of the D&D Starter Set, Basic D&D will include the material needed to create characters and advance to 20th level. In August, with the release of the Player’s Handbook, Basic D&D will expand to include the essential monsters, magic items, and DM rules needed to run the game, along with the rules for wilderness, dungeon, and urban adventuring. (The Starter Set already covers the aspects of these rules that you need to run the included campaign.)"
So there will be Basic D&D which will evolve as more products come out. It won't move away from Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, Rogue or the 4 races mentioned, but it'll expand on other levels as well.
Standard D&D - This is going to grow directly from the basic game, it will basicaly allow you to add to the basic game as much as you would like, it will include 11 classes and 7 races, with full subclass, feat support and background support on the character sides, on the DM side it will include the entire section of Combat, Exploration and Interaction rules plus the full gamut of monsters for the game. It will come out in stages with the PHB, MM and DMG coming out two months apart in order to give enough time to make sure editing is done right.
Once the MM is out the free Basic D&D PDF will be updated with a Beastiary and once the DMG is out it will be updated with a DM section. (I think that we will end up with 3 different PDF and not one big file).Advance D&D - This is the D&D bonanza, it's for the DM and groups that want to change their games in a serious way, while the standard game will have dials for lots of stuff, the advance game will be about complete rules modules that either expand or replace existing systems, some of this modules will be in the DMG (we know that the DMG have a section for point based magic system and a section on henchmen and followers) I'd imagine that the DMG will include things like aerial combat and downtime mechanics and we will probably see other things down the road.
I believe these two are one and the same. Except there will be no "standard". You can download the Basics and play and you can also buy the Starter Set, which comes with pre-gen characters and an adventure plus dice and stuff. If you want to delve further into the game, you pick up the PHB, Monster Manual, and DMG for an Advanced experience.
The time line for the release of Basic D&D is the PHB parts in July for use with the starter set (the starter set got everything the DM need to know and do to run it, the PHB stuff is for players who want to use their own characters instead of the pregens).
Rest of the stuff will be out when the next books will be out.
Correct
This approach got several great things going for it:
A. First it gives a potential consumer several entry points: free, $20 starter set, $29 adventures, $50 PHB, and so on.
B. It clearly allow different groups AND different players to play the same game only with different level of complexity (between players) and gamestyles (between tables) while essentially playing the same game.
C. I might be wrong here but it seems like they are moving the focus from lots of splat books to adventures and maybe module books, this approach will promote a horizontal growth instead of a vertical one.
Yes, the initial cost should be free or quite low, depending on how much a group wants to initially invest. Which I feel is very good for people who are more gun-shy about WotC's products.
As for different game-styles, I'm not sure I follow. A group using "Advanced rules" (ie. Options from the Player's Handbook) isn't going to be any different than someone coming to the table with a Pre-Gen or a Basic Character. The game is designed to be as streamlined as possible, allowing for a no-feats character to work and play alongside a character with multiple feats, multiclass, and maneuvers.
Attribute boosts in lieu of feats are in theory designed to be pretty equal in terms of power, and the less complex subclasses have benefits that are also intended to be similar in terms of power to the more complex ones. For instance, the warrior fighter build is the "basic" fighter class, and with that you get increased critical hit threat ranges and other benefits that are easy to track and manage, as opposed to combat maneuver type stuff.
Remember in 5e you choose to take a feat or take an attribute boost.
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As for the last point, they will have pulled off a minor miracle if Basic Characters can really function alongside Advanced ones. Options are power.
Maybe. Options are power if you add more powerful options. If the options are on par with each other, it doesn't mean "more powerful", just different. I do admit the tendency for power creep though, but I can hope that they see it as a problem as well...
*edit* yeah, kind of what P.H. Dungeon said... it's embarrassing when you're ninja'd by hours :)
I believe these two are one and the same. Except there will be no "standard". You can download the Basics and play and you can also buy the Starter Set, which comes with pre-gen characters and an adventure plus dice and stuff. If you want to delve further into the game, you pick up the PHB, Monster Manual, and DMG for an Advanced experience.
As for different game-styles, I'm not sure I follow. A group using "Advanced rules" (ie. Options from the Player's Handbook) isn't going to be any different than someone coming to the table with a Pre-Gen or a Basic Character. The game is designed to be as streamlined as possible, allowing for a no-feats character to work and play alongside a character with multiple feats, multiclass, and maneuvers.
I think he's expecting Basic, probably without the feats and options. Standard being essentially Core (PHB and most of the DMG) and then Advanced being optional rules from the Core books and more from later expansions.
As for the last point, they will have pulled off a minor miracle if Basic Characters can really function alongside Advanced ones. Options are power. That's even assuming the Basic version contains all the subsystems necessary. It's possible, but I didn't really see any sign of it in the playtest so I'll believe it when I see it.
You can build any basic character using the regular character creation rules in the PHB, for example, the basic fighter is the simple fighter subclass who took only ability bonuses instead of feats and probably got the soldier background.
And I got the thing about not having feats in the Basic game from comments like "Feats are optional" on twitter.
Warder
Ah, I see. Still I think Mearls is referring to Feats in general and not specifically the Basic rule set. I'd like to see at least a few feats thrown in there.
Any idea if the free PDF will be available as a pay print version?
Sure, Kinkos is still around to print things off...... :-P
But I'm thinking probably not. I could be wrong but its probably cheaper to just print it off yourself.
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Same here. ;-PI saw Basic D&D, and wondered "Hmmmm...Moldvay or Mentzer?".
Ain't I the old fart?
LOL
That makes three of us - I had visions of the old blue book online as a PDF...
Reggie