Your role models of what high level Fighters should be like aren't very accurate. Heracles was awesome because his daddy was a god. Gilgamesh had two gods for parents. Cu Chulainn seems much more likely to be a Barbarian (or, now, a Bloodrager) than a Fighter with his warp-spasm, and Sir Roland would be more likely a Paladin and he cleaved the mountain due to the awesomeness of his sword Durendal not because he was that awesome. And THOR! HA! He is a god, and even his power is dependent on the use of magic items.
Fighters can do some of the examples people have used.
Punch through a Wall
Punch through an interior stone wall in 6 punches (1 round), an exterior stone wall in 36 punches (6 rounds-60 seconds)
Jump more than 3 feet high/30 feet long
that's a long jump of 44 feet and a high jump of 11 feet
Fighters can move faster and combine mobility with attacking
Mobile Fighter 20, full attack/Whirlwind Attack as a standard action
Mobile Fighter 15, increase speed by 10
Rogue can get so good at hiding they can do so right in from of people, Hide in Plain Sight is available as an Advanced Rogue Talent
Now I am not arguing high level Fighters are balanced with high level Wizards. I am simply saying, Yes, by objective measurement Fighters get Epic. Not as epic as other classes, but still epic all the same. If you knew a person who could jump 30 feet, fall off the highest cliff, take a lava bath, wrestle a Tyrannosaurus Rex, run 40 feet and out right kill 8 people all in 6 seconds; you would definitely consider that person epic.
Other classes just get more epic, and faster.
The 3.0 Epic Level Handbook had skill DCs to accomplish many tasks of this nature. Some of these skills don't exist in PF, so you would need to change it to an appropriate skill. Here are some examples.
Appraise DC 50, detect magic on item examined
Balance DC 60 walk on Hair thin surface, 90 liquid, 120 clound
Bluff DC 70 display different alignment, DC 100 conceal thoughts
Climb DC 70 perfectly smooth wall, DC 100 perfectly smooth ceiling
Lastly, 4E tried to do this. Make Fighters equally epic to casters. They gave them special powers fueled by martial skill. A lot of people didn't like the result......
The 3.0 Epic Level Handbook had skill DCs to accomplish many tasks of this nature. Some of these skills don't exist in PF, so you would need to change it to an appropriate skill. Here are some examples.
Appraise DC 50, detect magic on item examined
Balance DC 60 walk on Hair thin surface, 90 liquid, 120 clound
Bluff DC 70 display different alignment, DC 100 conceal thoughts
Climb DC 70 perfectly smooth wall, DC 100 perfectly smooth ceiling
Interesting. I think I like it because is not just "put skill ranks here" but need more investment.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Lastly, 4E tried to do this. Make Fighters equally epic to casters. They gave them special powers fueled by martial skill. A lot of people didn't like the result......
No, what 4E did was take all the classes and give them nearly identical mechanics but with a slightly different flavor and little variation in how they played. That plus cool downs. That's why people didn't like it, not because "martials were super kewl like wizards." In 4E everyone was bland.
20 ranks + 7 Str + 4 speed + 3 class + 10 (take 10) = 44
that's a long jump of 44 feet and a high jump of 11 feet
Fighters can move faster and combine mobility with attacking
How are they adding strength to a jump? Why is it a class skill? How do they have 40ft movement speed?
Lastly, 4E tried to do this. Make Fighters equally epic to casters. They gave them special powers fueled by martial skill. A lot of people didn't like the result......No, what 4E did was take all the classes and give them nearly identical mechanics but with a slightly different flavor and little variation in how they played. That plus cool downs. That's why people didn't like it, not because "martials were super kewl like wizards." In 4E everyone was bland.
4th ed has "encounter powers" I won't touch anything with meta-mechanics like that. (that includes inquisitor judgments and some cavalier orders)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Your role models of what high level Fighters should be like aren't very accurate. Heracles was awesome because his daddy was a god. Gilgamesh had two gods for parents. Cu Chulainn seems much more likely to be a Barbarian (or, now, a Bloodrager) than a Fighter with his warp-spasm, and Sir Roland would be more likely a Paladin and he cleaved the mountain due to the awesomeness of his sword Durendal not because he was that awesome. And THOR! HA! He is a god, and even his power is dependent on the use of magic items.
I'd argue that a level 20 Fighter should be at god-like levels. A level 20 wizard is already making Yahweh look like a chump.
4th ed has "encounter powers" I won't touch anything with meta-mechanics like that. (that includes inquisitor judgments and some cavalier orders)Lastly, 4E tried to do this. Make Fighters equally epic to casters. They gave them special powers fueled by martial skill. A lot of people didn't like the result......No, what 4E did was take all the classes and give them nearly identical mechanics but with a slightly different flavor and little variation in how they played. That plus cool downs. That's why people didn't like it, not because "martials were super kewl like wizards." In 4E everyone was bland.
Well, PF have 1+1/every 5 levels per day mundane rogue talents.
Your role models of what high level Fighters should be like aren't very accurate. Heracles was awesome because his daddy was a god. Gilgamesh had two gods for parents. Cu Chulainn seems much more likely to be a Barbarian (or, now, a Bloodrager) than a Fighter with his warp-spasm, and Sir Roland would be more likely a Paladin and he cleaved the mountain due to the awesomeness of his sword Durendal not because he was that awesome. And THOR! HA! He is a god, and even his power is dependent on the use of magic items.I'd argue that a level 20 Fighter should be at god-like levels. A level 20 wizard is already making Yahweh look like a chump.
Yahweh is the GM. Wizards are strong, but not GM level.
|
20 ranks + 7 Str + 4 speed + 3 class + 10 (take 10) = 44
that's a long jump of 44 feet and a high jump of 11 feet
Except a Fighter, with the exception of 1 core and 1 non-core archetype, can't jump that actual 44 feet long because he's bounded by his base speed. So in most instances you're back to that issue of the numbers supporting something that the game doesn't back.
If you knew a person who could jump 30 feet, fall off the highest cliff, take a lava bath, wrestle a Tyrannosaurus Rex, run 40 feet and out right kill 8 people all in 6 seconds; you would definitely consider that person epic.
He could do one or two of those things in 6 seconds, not all of them in 6 seconds. I think that's what you meant but just wanted to be clear.
That's exactly the problem with those checks Alexandros. Those DCs are impossible at the levels of gameplay we partake in without copious use of magic.
This DC where made taking into account levels beyond 20, clearly they need some tweak for levels 10-20.
Well, PF have 1+1/every 5 levels per day mundane rogue talents.4th ed has "encounter powers" I won't touch anything with meta-mechanics like that. (that includes inquisitor judgments and some cavalier orders)Lastly, 4E tried to do this. Make Fighters equally epic to casters. They gave them special powers fueled by martial skill. A lot of people didn't like the result......No, what 4E did was take all the classes and give them nearly identical mechanics but with a slightly different flavor and little variation in how they played. That plus cool downs. That's why people didn't like it, not because "martials were super kewl like wizards." In 4E everyone was bland.
Most of those are crap too. At least a day though is something that isn't subjective and my character understands.
My character doesn't know what per encounter means, and the inquisitor may occasionally want to fight invisible enemies to keep his healing judgment going. Because really what is combat?
Yahweh is the GM. Wizards are strong, but not GM level.Your role models of what high level Fighters should be like aren't very accurate. Heracles was awesome because his daddy was a god. Gilgamesh had two gods for parents. Cu Chulainn seems much more likely to be a Barbarian (or, now, a Bloodrager) than a Fighter with his warp-spasm, and Sir Roland would be more likely a Paladin and he cleaved the mountain due to the awesomeness of his sword Durendal not because he was that awesome. And THOR! HA! He is a god, and even his power is dependent on the use of magic items.I'd argue that a level 20 Fighter should be at god-like levels. A level 20 wizard is already making Yahweh look like a chump.
I'd think the GM is more like the Christian God but we're kinda splitting hairs at this point and it's not a debate worth getting into.
The Pathfinder wizard certainly outranks many gods that are part of a pantheon, though. There isn't anything a Greek god is reported as doing that a Pathfinder wizard can't do as well or better.
|
Well, PF have 1+1/every 5 levels per day mundane rogue talents.4th ed has "encounter powers" I won't touch anything with meta-mechanics like that. (that includes inquisitor judgments and some cavalier orders)Lastly, 4E tried to do this. Make Fighters equally epic to casters. They gave them special powers fueled by martial skill. A lot of people didn't like the result......No, what 4E did was take all the classes and give them nearly identical mechanics but with a slightly different flavor and little variation in how they played. That plus cool downs. That's why people didn't like it, not because "martials were super kewl like wizards." In 4E everyone was bland.Most of those are crap too. At least a day though is something that isn't subjective and my character understands.
My character doesn't know what per encounter means, and the inquisitor may occasionally want to fight invisible enemies to keep his healing judgment going. Because really what is combat?
My favorite example of this was an Inquisitor who tried convince the GM that his character had deep levels of internal conflict and that he should be able to judge himself with healing.
Well, PF have 1+1/every 5 levels per day mundane rogue talents.4th ed has "encounter powers" I won't touch anything with meta-mechanics like that. (that includes inquisitor judgments and some cavalier orders)Lastly, 4E tried to do this. Make Fighters equally epic to casters. They gave them special powers fueled by martial skill. A lot of people didn't like the result......No, what 4E did was take all the classes and give them nearly identical mechanics but with a slightly different flavor and little variation in how they played. That plus cool downs. That's why people didn't like it, not because "martials were super kewl like wizards." In 4E everyone was bland.Most of those are crap too. At least a day though is something that isn't subjective and my character understands.
My character doesn't know what per encounter means, and the inquisitor may occasionally want to fight invisible enemies to keep his healing judgment going. Because really what is combat?
You're talking about two different things here. 'Per encounter' could be an ability which requires rest to recover. Something that takes a certain amount of chi/life force/mojo out of a character and must be restored through rest. There are some abilities which make sense here, and others which do not.
The other thing, regarding the inquisitor's healing judgement, is 'during combat' stuff, which I agree is pretty stupid.
Oh if you dig for enough into 4ed the encounter power make sense, but that is the thing. You have to dig. The meta is on the face while the flavor is in the crunch.
Completely backwards for a roleplaying game.
Oh if you dig for enough into 4ed the encounter power make sense, but that is the thing. You have to dig. The meta is on the face while the flavor is in the crunch.
Completely backwards for a roleplaying game.
So you'd prefer if rather than listed as 'encounter' powers they were noted as 'Moves which must be recovered during a brief respite not less than 5 minutes' or similar?
I don't actually play 4E, so I haven't bothered reading the books beyond the few times I made a character to try it out during the first year it was available, but they probably have the 'encounter' term defined somewhere use 'encounter' as a simple single word term for sake of simplicity?
If the correct definition looks stupid then the mechanic is probably stupid too.
By "making sense" I meant if you dig far enough into the crunch a character could understand it.
Having an ability be it's own resource is silly though. They would have been better off with a stamina pool and the abilities costing stamina to use.
Which may be why all the comparisons to WoW are drawn.
My character doesn't know what per encounter meansTo be fair, 4e encounter mechanics reset upon a short rest, which isn't necessarily meta or nebulous.
And hell, if it was just meta-mechanics it wouldn't have been that bad, ToB doesn't get that much flak and its rules are gamey as hell. Dubious advertising, crippling execution and the absolute worst management of a product I've seen in a long time have much more to do with 4e's failure (though a Pathfinder forum really isn't the place to try to talk objectively about the edition of D&D d20 players almost universally despise).
Plus if you wanna complain about anything being too game-y healing surges are the better thing to hate, because they don't even attempt to justify them ever.
I don't actually play 4E, so I haven't bothered reading the books beyond the few times I made a character to try it out during the first year it was available, but they probably have the 'encounter' term defined somewhere use 'encounter' as a simple single word term for sake of simplicity?]/quote]
Yeah, "encounter power" is defined as a power that requires a short rest (which in turn is defined as a 5 minute break) to recover. In turn, daily powers require an extended rest (which in turn is defined as 8 hours of relative nonactivity) to recover.It is a bit silly and arbitrary, but we've been playing with Vance for decades and ToB for years and it's not much weirder than any of those.
ToB does get a lot of hate.
Healing surges made sense to me because I watch shounen anime, where the main character will just keep getting back up via "surging" essentially.
Although this also why 4th ed gets a lot of flack. I don't have that same aversion though. Still don't want to see the fighter reworked as a ki character though. I like things to make sens and the only way for a fighter to be wuxia and make sense is for the fighter to stop being a fighter. So me not wanting to see the fighter go weeaboo has nothing to do with an aversion to weeaboo things.
Having an ability be it's own resource is silly though.You mean like all the X per day abilities in Pathfinder?
I don't like those, but per day is more acceptable than per "time I can take a breather"
Sleeping is significant enough to recharge spell casting.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Having an ability be it's own resource is silly though.You mean like all the X per day abilities in Pathfinder?
If they are mundane in nature there is a good chance they are silly.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Having an ability be it's own resource is silly though.You mean like all the X per day abilities in Pathfinder?I don't like those, but per day is more acceptable than per "time I can take a breather"
Sleeping is significant enough to recharge spell casting.
I don't see anything wrong with an ability needing minor rest before it can be used again, but I hate the ambiguity of "once per encounter." If it said something like "you may use this ability any number of times, but require a x minute period of rest where you are not actively engaged in combat in between uses" it wouldn't bother me at all.
Silly Rogue, tricks are for casters.
Would be a valid critique if those rogue talents were good.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Silly Rogue, tricks are for casters.
Yeah, those rogue talents are silly, why exactly underhanded is limited to cha/per day?
I don't see anything wrong with an ability needing minor rest before it can be used again, but I hate the ambiguity of "once per encounter." If it said something like "you may use this ability any number of times, but require a x minute period of rest where you are not actively engaged in combat in between uses" it wouldn't bother me at all.Having an ability be it's own resource is silly though.You mean like all the X per day abilities in Pathfinder?I don't like those, but per day is more acceptable than per "time I can take a breather"
Sleeping is significant enough to recharge spell casting.
Yes I agree. But I think since that definition would be to clunky they went with "encounter power" which was an awful decision.
The per short-rest powers are a lot more palatable than encounter powers.
He could do one or two of those things in 6 seconds, not all of them in 6 seconds. I think that's what you meant but just wanted to be clear.
I actually only meant the "run 40 feet and out right kill 8 people" in 6 seconds.
But yeah, actually he could probably do more than one in 6 secs depending on which ones
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I find it funny that people claim a Fighter with Charles Atlas superpowers would be ridiculous but are perfectly fine with them doing all sorts of impossible stuff through the use of magic gear...
Personally, I never saw Green Lantern as any less cartoony or absurd than Batman or Superman.
And saying "Oh, but those characters are demi-gods" just doesn't cut, IMO. That might as well be simple fluff from the character's background.... Or something like the Eldritch Heritage feat. Hell, even just being an Aasimar or Tielfing means you're directly related to supernatural creatures, and yet, no matter their bloodline, Fighters are still limited to what a real person could reasonably do... Except when they aren't, but the "martials should be realistic" crowd conveniently ignores those situations... ("It's okay when Fighters slays dragons in less than 6 seconds using just their fists, but if they jump 10ft in the air, that's obviously too unrealistic!")
BTW, count me among those who don't like "Per Encounter" abilities, although I'm okay with stuff like "every 1d4 rounds" or "once per target per [arbitrary length of time]", etc. Yeah... Every now and then I agree with Marthkus. :/
Maybe some magical abilities could use "per encounter" mechanics (e.g.: A Cleric of a god of War may receive one blessing "per battle") but even that is pushing it, IMO. "Per Encounter" abilities tend to be clunky and have ill-defined limits.
I'd love to see level 10 versions. By posting level 20 characters, all you've shown is how powerful Wealth is.
** spoiler omitted **...
Don't forget about Cinbaa! The guy who proves that Warrior is a solid class.
Male Human (Azlanti) Warrior 10
LN Medium humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +14
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 25, touch 14, flat-footed 23 (+9 armor, +2 Dex, +2 natural, +1 deflection)
hp 99 (10d10+40)
Fort +15, Ref +10, Will +10
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft.
Melee 50% free (+4 greatsword) +21/+16 (2d6+16/17-20)
Ranged +1 adaptive composite longbow +15/+10 (1d8+10/19-20/×3)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 10th; concentration +8)
. . 1/day—detect magic, feather fall (DC 9), levitate
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 22, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +10; CMB +18; CMD 30
Feats Arcane Strike, Craft Magic Arms & Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, Dark Adept, Improved Critical (greatsword), Power Attack
Traits classically schooled, indomitable faith
Skills Climb +10, Intimidate +11, Perception +14, Sense Motive +9, Spellcraft +15, Swim +10
Languages Azlanti, Common, Draconic
Combat Gear jingasa of the fortunate soldier; Other Gear +3 breastplate, 50% free (+4 greatsword), +1 adaptive composite longbow, amulet of natural armor +2, bane baldric, belt of physical might (str & con +2), boots of speed, bracers of falcon's aim, cloak of resistance +4, ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, attack), ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, saves), ring of protection +1, 950 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Arcane Strike As a swift action, add +1 damage, +1 per 5 caster levels and your weapons are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Boots of speed (10 rounds/day) Affected by haste
Dark Adept Gain detect magic, feather fall, and levitate as spell-like abilities.
Jingasa of the fortunate soldier (1/day) Activate to negate a critical hit or sneak attack as an immediate action.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
DPR vs AC 24:
Normal (Including Arcane Strike): 49.91
Power Attack: 56.00
Power Attack + Haste: 96.32
Power Attack + Haste + Bane: 140.63
Now stop saying Warrior is a NPC class, you damn haters! It's obviously a completely viable front-liner!
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Now stop saying Warrior is a NPC class, you damn haters! It's obviously a completely viable front-liner!
140 DPR? Warrior is straight up OP! NERF NOW!
At least he uses his amazing warrior talents to wear shoes and take race-specific feat to cast 3 spell like abilities and haste so he doesn't have to full attack every round, then he uses his amazing warrior talent to use spell like abilities to qualify for and use arcane strike.
Now stop saying Warrior is a NPC class, you damn haters! It's obviously a completely viable front-liner!140 DPR? Warrior is straight up OP! NERF NOW!
Pfff... That's nothing! Did you see what a 1st level Commoner can do?
At least he uses his amazing warrior talents to wear shoes and take race-specific feat to cast 3 spell like abilities and haste so he doesn't have to full attack every round, then he uses his amazing warrior talent to use spell like abilities to qualify for and use arcane strike.
Race is part of the character, so that means everything a race can do should be considered merit of the character's class, right? Look at my amazing Commoner build back in page 2! He obviously proves Commoners to be insanely overpowered!
I'd love to see level 10 versions. By posting level 20 characters, all you've shown is how powerful Wealth is.
** spoiler omitted **...
Don't forget about Cinbaa! The guy who proves that Warrior is a solid class.
** spoiler omitted **...
I guess he's cool.
I guess a fighter would have: Combat reflexes, Blind-Fight, Lunge, Intimidating Prowess, Iron Will(put power attack in a bonus feat slot), and Quick Draw
And slightly bigger numbers.
Seriously dude don't knock commoner. My level 20 commoner with full PC WBL will rock the hell out of your low level PCs.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'd love to see level 10 versions. By posting level 20 characters, all you've shown is how powerful Wealth is.
** spoiler omitted **...
Don't forget about Cinbaa! The guy who proves that Warrior is a solid class.
** spoiler omitted **...
I guess he's cool.
I guess a fighter would have: Combat reflexes, Blind-Fight, Lunge, Intimidating Prowess, Iron Will(put power attack in a bonus feat slot), and Quick Draw
And slightly bigger numbers.
I'd make a joke about Fighters being obviously OP, given that they overshadow Warriors (who are apparently a completely solid and not-at-all-underpowered class), but since they are not casters, I'm afraid Paizo might take it seriously and actually nerf Fighters.
To be fair any two handed fighter only needs Power Attack to function and how fair is that? Scaling feats should be broken into individual feats that you need to take every few levels so that fighter has the edge over other martials. Unless we're talking magic related feats. Metamagic costs really need to come down, like why should I need to be level 13 to Quicken a Fireball or Haste? Ridiculous.
To be fair any two handed fighter only needs Power Attack to function and how fair is that? Scaling feats should be broken into individual feats that you need to take every few levels so that fighter has the edge over other martials. Unless we're talking magic related feats. Metamagic costs really need to come down, like why should I need to be level 13 to Quicken a Fireball or Haste? Ridiculous.
"Power Attack OP" was the only thread I've been in that was deleted.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ah, indeed. You make a great point, Chaoseffect!
Let's split Power Attack into PA, Improved PA and Greater PA! Hell, add Combat Expertise and Int 13 as prerequisites too!
That way Fighters would have a real advantage (because that's what feat chains do, right? They certainly don't cripple every martial class in the game and cheat Fighters out of their one class feature. No, sir. that would be silly. They surely make Fighters a better class).
The sad thing is you very well may be right on that Lemmy. They even used 'errata' to nerf something when that isn't even a legitimate use of erratum.
Frequently Asked Questions is an acronym for Errata isn't it?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The sad thing is you very well may be right on that Lemmy. They even used 'errata' to nerf something when that isn't even a legitimate use of erratum.Frequently Asked Questions is an acronym for Errata isn't it?
Only if it's being used to nerf martial classes.
Ah, indeed. You make a great point, Chaoseffect!
Let's split Power Attack into PA, Improved PA and Greater PA! Hell, add Combat Expertise and Int 13 as prerequisites too!
That way Fighters would have a real advantage (because that's what feat chains do, right? They certainly don't cripple every martial class in the game and cheat Fighters out of their one class feature. No, sir. that would be silly. They surely make Fighters a better class).
Still seems a bit too good. Let's make Skill Focus (Profession: Fighter) a requirement too to be safe.
Still seems a bit too good. Let's make Skill Focus (Profession: Fighter) a requirement too to be safe.Ah, indeed. You make a great point, Chaoseffect!
Let's split Power Attack into PA, Improved PA and Greater PA! Hell, add Combat Expertise and Int 13 as prerequisites too!
That way Fighters would have a real advantage (because that's what feat chains do, right? They certainly don't cripple every martial class in the game and cheat Fighters out of their one class feature. No, sir. that would be silly. They surely make Fighters a better class).
Better make it have a prerequisite of BAB +11 for the 1st feat... We don't want Fighters to be too unrealistic, so let's make PA only available by the time casters have 6th level spells... I mean, you obviously have to be some sort of demi-god to be able to deal extra damage in exchange for a penalty to accuracy.
Better make it have a prerequisite of BAB +11 for the 1st feat... We don't want Fighters to be too unrealistic, so let's make PA only available by the time casters have 6th level spells... I mean, you obviously have to be some sort of demi-god to be able to deal extra damage in exchange for a penalty to accuracy.Still seems a bit too good. Let's make Skill Focus (Profession: Fighter) a requirement too to be safe.Ah, indeed. You make a great point, Chaoseffect!
Let's split Power Attack into PA, Improved PA and Greater PA! Hell, add Combat Expertise and Int 13 as prerequisites too!
That way Fighters would have a real advantage (because that's what feat chains do, right? They certainly don't cripple every martial class in the game and cheat Fighters out of their one class feature. No, sir. that would be silly. They surely make Fighters a better class).
I think last time we talked about giving power attack more effects we talked about giving it a chance to fly out of your hands because your just swinging it that hard. Better make it a reflex save.