And again, your statement shows that you do not have any understanding of the Tier system, at all. The Barbarian has one good option "hit things". That is not Tier 2. Tier 2 means you'd have to be able to effectively do a broad array of things other than hit things, like bypass encounters, disable magical traps, successfully maneuver social situations, etc.There you go again.
The barbar only has one option! Oh no!
Too bad that option can solve all of your problems with enough application.
Kingdom starving? Kill off the hungry people or kill the people of a nearby kingdom for their food.
Sauron about to take over the world? Either sunder the ring yourself or solo his army and tear down his tower.
Kyuss invading? Slay him yourself.
Hundreds of dragon attacking? Pull out your bow or wrestle one into submission and go fly swapping.
Rapture? Solo the dark horde and kill Lucifer before bro-Jesus can finish saying "kill steal"
Need to nafigate a social situation? Nope
Need to get around a wall of traps everywhere? Not disabling those...
Enemies can fly? Have fun poking them with a longbow with no feats...
Invisible enemies? Nope
Need to cross a 100 ft chasm? Sure wish you had fly...
need I mention anything else?
|
Need to nafigate a social situation? Nope
Need to get around a wall of traps everywhere? Not disabling those...
Enemies can fly? Have fun poking them with a longbow with no feats...
Invisible enemies? Nope
Need to cross a 100 ft chasm? Sure wish you had fly...
need I mention anything else?
In fairness to the invis/fly issues, I think most mid-high level barbs worth their salt would pack away a pair of winged boots and don a spectral shroud. Not full proof clearly, but definitely helps with the majority of problems arising from those two situations.
In fairness to the invis/fly issues, I think most mid-high level barbs worth their salt would pack away a pair of winged boots and don a spectral shroud. Not full proof clearly, but definitely helps with the majority of problems arising from those two situations.Need to nafigate a social situation? Nope
Need to get around a wall of traps everywhere? Not disabling those...
Enemies can fly? Have fun poking them with a longbow with no feats...
Invisible enemies? Nope
Need to cross a 100 ft chasm? Sure wish you had fly...
need I mention anything else?
True, but I am looking at what the BARBARIAN himself can do, by virtue of his class, not his money. Because if go down that path, a rogue with rediculous money could be tier 1...
For the purposes of this thread, I'd like people to just assume (or accept for the sake of the argument) that casters are "better" than martials rather than debating that point.
I wondered how that translates at the table for those groups who feel this way? Do you find that nobody plays rogues or fighters?
I ask because in the posts where people list their parties, there often seem to be martial classes around. I wondered whether people are houseruling those classes, whether the players of casters just "play nice" and dont tread on the toes of the martial players or what other solutions people have found.
They tend to be more common at lower levels, rarer at higher levels.
For example our Kingmaker party at start:
Summoner, life oracle, ranger, rogue, magus
Around level 10 or 11 when we stopped the AP:
Summoner, life oracle, Flame oracle, witch, barbarian
|
|
Blood money is always superior to spending actual gold, so that is not a concern.
How much of your WBL are you planning on spending on strength boosting items?
Zero. There are so many ways around that issue it's unreal.
Ring of Inner Fortitude.
Potion of Lesser Restoration.
Magic Jar a baddie and use his strength instead.
List goes on and on.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
-Track with survival! Or kill random people until he is dead!
Might work. Definitely won't work if the killer's flying. The latter decision will definitely change the game from a murder mystery to a prison escape or a fight against everyone, I guess, so I'll grant you that.
-Kill all the infected people, like you can fail a fort save?
And what happens when people run? You're going to kill all the infected people in the land? Alone?
-Kill BBEG. Then the King. Take crown. Use queen to make another princess.
I'm beginning to think your definition of "solving an encounter" is "ignoring the game and making your own path."
Which, I guess, is a valid way to play the game. It is not an argument for the barbarian not being T4. Solving the encounters you can solve with violence, then ignoring any encounter you can't is the definition of a one-trick pony.
-Why do I need to do that?
Pick a reason. It's the macguffin, which means you need it for the plotline.
-Again why?
See above.
-Sunder the disintegrating effect, sounds magical. Then kill BBEG, he probably caused the problem in the first place.
Might be able to sunder it, but it also might be an artifact, or it might be a natural occurrence, or it might be just impossible to sunder.
Violence is always an answer.
Only if you want to cause even more problems, and even then, it can't solve everything.
|
|
True, but I am looking at what the BARBARIAN himself can do, by virtue of his class, not his money. Because if go down that path, a rogue with rediculous money could be tier 1...
Well, pretty much every class except casters are highly dependent on magic items if we are just going to be blunt about it. While you can certainly make valid arguments of which classes are better stand alone, I tend to examine them from a complete picture view with items, because it really does change the outcome.
You know I love my monks. If I had to play them without magic items though, I would shudder.
|
Good luck hitting the wizard when he is :
1) Invisible
2) has his defenses up
3) you are not proficient with improvized weapons...
What is stopping the barbarian from flying up and attacking?
1) Barbarians can fly
2) Barbarians can use scent
3) Barbarians can take Blind Fighting
Even Mind Blank will not hide you from a barbarian.
True, but I am looking at what the BARBARIAN himself can do, by virtue of his class, not his money. Because if go down that path, a rogue with rediculous money could be tier 1...
Since you don't want any WBL used and I've demonstrated how a barbarian can find and reach your wizard using only class features, that wizard is going to die. Every single one of the barbarians attacks is going to hit your ungeared wizard on a 2+
|
|
1) Barbarians can fly
2) Barbarians can use scent
3) Barbarian can take blind fightingEven Mind Blank will not hide you from a barbarian.
The main problem with this approach is that the range of scent is nowhere near as long as the range of most spells. If the caster is using short range spells only, and the barbarian gets lucky as he blunders through the sky after his unseen attacker, then this could have a chance to work. I think it's pretty slim, though.
|
|
The main problem with this approach is that the range of scent is nowhere near as long as the range of most spells. If the caster is using short range spells only, and the barbarian gets lucky as he blunders through the sky after his unseen attacker, then this could have a chance to work. I think it's pretty slim, though.1) Barbarians can fly
2) Barbarians can use scent
3) Barbarian can take blind fightingEven Mind Blank will not hide you from a barbarian.
So your going to make the assumption all encounters take place at maximum range, with the caster fully buffed and carrying exactly the spells needed for the situation at hand?
We could make the equally valid assumption that the barbarian just walked around the corner and caught the wizard completely unprepared, indoors, in a 10x10x10 room.
The main problem with this approach is that the range of scent is nowhere near as long as the range of most spells. If the caster is using short range spells only, and the barbarian gets lucky as he blunders through the sky after his unseen attacker, then this could have a chance to work. I think it's pretty slim, though.1) Barbarians can fly
2) Barbarians can use scent
3) Barbarian can take blind fightingEven Mind Blank will not hide you from a barbarian.
There's also something to be said of the ease of the barbarian having all those powered prepared that day as opposed to a caster having them all known/prepared that day.
Personally I think this is a silly argument to begin with though. Barbarian am smash. He am good at smashing. He am good at making saves!
Full casters are something akin to a physical god though, because they can teleport, travel through planes, throw out AoE SoL spells, turn invisible, fly all day, create multiple images to avoid harm, cast resistance on them and their friends on a hot day or one where they fight a dragon in a volcanoe, cast protection from spells, steal the class features of other classes(temporarily, charm people in a single round making them their bestest buddy, dominate people's minds and make them robot-like slaves, turn into a dragon/ giant/ beast, control space and time, etc. They have a ton of options. Some good and powerful narrative that you may have to plan around, and others bad that really they should never use if their sane.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Full casters are something akin to a physical god though, because they can teleport, travel through planes, throw out AoE SoL spells, turn invisible, fly all day, create multiple images to avoid harm, cast resistance on them and their friends on a hot day or one where they fight a dragon in a volcanoe, cast protection from spells, steal the class features of other classes(temporarily, charm people in a single round making them their bestest buddy, dominate people's minds and make them robot-like slaves, turn into a dragon/ giant/ beast, control space and time, etc. They have a ton of options. Some good and powerful narrative that you may have to plan around, and others bad that really they should never use if their sane.
They only get to do all of that at any given time if your playing Schrodinger's wizard.
Full casters are something akin to a physical god though, because they can teleport, travel through planes, throw out AoE SoL spells, turn invisible, fly all day, create multiple images to avoid harm, cast resistance on them and their friends on a hot day or one where they fight a dragon in a volcanoe, cast protection from spells, steal the class features of other classes(temporarily, charm people in a single round making them their bestest buddy, dominate people's minds and make them robot-like slaves, turn into a dragon/ giant/ beast, control space and time, etc. They have a ton of options. Some good and powerful narrative that you may have to plan around, and others bad that really they should never use if their sane.They only get to do all of that at any given time if your playing Schrodinger's wizard.
Did I say they do it all the time? Can you point to me where I said they do that so I can see how that relates to what I said?
I didn't say they could do it all of the time at any given time. I said they can, as in they have the potential too. They have options. A lot of options. That's the point. Barbarians smash, but they only really smash. They don't do much a wizard can't do out of combat if anything, meanwhile, magic can do darn near anything and likely does do everything else.
Full casters are something akin to a physical god though, because they can teleport, travel through planes, throw out AoE SoL spells, turn invisible, fly all day, create multiple images to avoid harm, cast resistance on them and their friends on a hot day or one where they fight a dragon in a volcanoe, cast protection from spells, steal the class features of other classes(temporarily, charm people in a single round making them their bestest buddy, dominate people's minds and make them robot-like slaves, turn into a dragon/ giant/ beast, control space and time, etc. They have a ton of options. Some good and powerful narrative that you may have to plan around, and others bad that really they should never use if their sane.
Teleport = move, travel
Travel through planes = move, travelAoE = hit lots of foes
SoL = inflict status on foe
Invisible = use stealth
Fly = move
Images = avoid attacks
Resistance = negate energy harm
protection from spells = resistance bonus to saves
charm = make friend
dominate = make good friend
polymorph = fight in a different form
Control space/time = ??? No?
Most of this is just a difference of scale, not really a difference of type.
The main problem with this approach is that the range of scent is nowhere near as long as the range of most spells. If the caster is using short range spells only, and the barbarian gets lucky as he blunders through the sky after his unseen attacker, then this could have a chance to work. I think it's pretty slim, though.1) Barbarians can fly
2) Barbarians can use scent
3) Barbarian can take blind fightingEven Mind Blank will not hide you from a barbarian.
So your going to make the assumption all encounters take place at maximum range, with the caster fully buffed and carrying exactly the spells needed for the situation at hand?
We could make the equally valid assumption that the barbarian just walked around the corner and caught the wizard completely unprepared, indoors, in a 10x10x10 room.
Except you know what the problem with that scenerio is? The wizard HAS methods to prepare. The wizard wouldn't be caught off guard. The wizard has access to divination magic, which allows him to know everything about your barbarian before the fight even begins, teleportation magic to pop up right when he deems it most beneficial for him to, and terrain alterning magic that can change the very landscape to fit his needs best. The barbarian is only catching the wizard by suprise if the plot deems it so...
Full casters are something akin to a physical god though, because they can teleport, travel through planes, throw out AoE SoL spells, turn invisible, fly all day, create multiple images to avoid harm, cast resistance on them and their friends on a hot day or one where they fight a dragon in a volcanoe, cast protection from spells, steal the class features of other classes(temporarily, charm people in a single round making them their bestest buddy, dominate people's minds and make them robot-like slaves, turn into a dragon/ giant/ beast, control space and time, etc. They have a ton of options. Some good and powerful narrative that you may have to plan around, and others bad that really they should never use if their sane.Teleport = move, travel
Travel through planes = move, travel
AoE = hit lots of foes
SoL = inflict status on foe
Invisible = use stealth
Fly = move
Images = avoid attacks
Resistance = negate energy harm
protection from spells = resistance bonus to saves
charm = make friend
dominate = make good friend
polymorph = fight in a different form
Control space/time = ??? No?Most of this is just a difference of scale, not really a difference of type.
Yes, if turning into a dragon is the same as fighting in a different form(whatever that is), and teleporting 100 miles per caster level in a single round is the same as a single move action, then its only a slightly different scale. Summon monster is the same as getting on your horse, riding to heaven, and picking up an angel to come hang with you for a bit.
I think dominated people make horrible friends personally, mind you.
Full casters are something akin to a physical god though, because they can teleport, travel through planes, throw out AoE SoL spells, turn invisible, fly all day, create multiple images to avoid harm, cast resistance on them and their friends on a hot day or one where they fight a dragon in a volcanoe, cast protection from spells, steal the class features of other classes(temporarily, charm people in a single round making them their bestest buddy, dominate people's minds and make them robot-like slaves, turn into a dragon/ giant/ beast, control space and time, etc. They have a ton of options. Some good and powerful narrative that you may have to plan around, and others bad that really they should never use if their sane.They only get to do all of that at any given time if your playing Schrodinger's wizard.
See, you are pulling out arguments that never happened... Reading comprehension is tech you know?
Oh! And actually, with the Arcanist, you really can play Schrodinger's wizard. They spoiled a new exploit for the Arcanist that allows to them change one of their prepared spells for a different spell as a full round action.
|
|
So your going to make the assumption all encounters take place at maximum range, with the caster fully buffed and carrying exactly the spells needed for the situation at hand?
We could make the equally valid assumption that the barbarian just walked around the corner and caught the wizard completely unprepared, indoors, in a 10x10x10 room.
Let's be fair here. At no point in time did I say that all encounters take place at maximum range. Or that the caster is always fully buffed. Or that he will always have exactly the spells needed.
1). The range of scent is what it is. I do not mean to disrespect the ability, it's a very handy utility, but it is very short range. Those are just the facts.
2). Casters of that level are typically at least partially buffed with 10 min/level and hour/level buffs. If I was a 20th level Wizard, when I woke up in the morning the very first thing I would do is cast foresight to get a good impression of if I should be concerned today. If yes, I would cast limited wish to duplicate arcane concordance, and then go through all my 10 min/level and longer duration buffs. I personally memorize a lot of buffs, but not all players do. So this routine will vary greatly.
3). Very often when it comes to a fight situation, the caster will always have the spell needed, because the best save or suck casters build around 1-3 options that are almost always universally effective.
Will every caster have every answer at his finger tips on call? No. But honestly, especially when it comes to Oracles with paragon surge and eldritch heritage, they do in fact have every answer at their finger tip.
I do agree with you that I prefer a pvp situation to be no surprise, no bull, you have your very long duration buffs up, roll initiative and go. Unfortunately, most casters will do much better than most barbs in that arena as well though, and the outcome is likely to be similar. In that situation though, there would have to be some occasions when the barb just went first and got in that hideous rage/pounce and mauls the occasional caster's face. I don't think anyone means to say otherwise. All I am saying is that the odds are very much not in the barbs favor, when speaking in general in optimized vs. optimized capacity.
More on topic, I don't think everyone who plays the game puts heavy thought into how a class plays. Some people just take the fighter as the mundane martial concept and have fun with it without taking into consideration whether the full attack mechanic that every martial has and uses is really fun or not in gameplay. That's not inherently a bad thing mind you, but it does suck if its used as a defense for something mechanical, and in pathfinder it is really your only option to play someone martially inclined. Even battle clerics and druids tend to buff up and then full attack spam.
1) Barbarians can fly
I would say most barbarian opt for pounce.
|
|
Full casters are something akin to a physical god though, because they can teleport, travel through planes, throw out AoE SoL spells, turn invisible, fly all day, create multiple images to avoid harm, cast resistance on them and their friends on a hot day or one where they fight a dragon in a volcanoe, cast protection from spells, steal the class features of other classes(temporarily, charm people in a single round making them their bestest buddy, dominate people's minds and make them robot-like slaves, turn into a dragon/ giant/ beast, control space and time, etc. They have a ton of options. Some good and powerful narrative that you may have to plan around, and others bad that really they should never use if their sane.They only get to do all of that at any given time if your playing Schrodinger's wizard.
Actually, by higher levels, one single wizard can have all of the listed options in his prepared repertoire. That isn't Schroedinger's Wizard, that's a wizard at 18th level.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Actually, by higher levels, one single wizard can have all of the listed options in his prepared repertoire. That isn't Schroedinger's Wizard, that's a wizard at 18th level.Full casters are something akin to a physical god though, because they can teleport, travel through planes, throw out AoE SoL spells, turn invisible, fly all day, create multiple images to avoid harm, cast resistance on them and their friends on a hot day or one where they fight a dragon in a volcanoe, cast protection from spells, steal the class features of other classes(temporarily, charm people in a single round making them their bestest buddy, dominate people's minds and make them robot-like slaves, turn into a dragon/ giant/ beast, control space and time, etc. They have a ton of options. Some good and powerful narrative that you may have to plan around, and others bad that really they should never use if their sane.They only get to do all of that at any given time if your playing Schrodinger's wizard.
A wizard at 18th level is likely far worse. That's only 16 spells.
|
|
I know I do.I would say most barbarian opt for pounce.
1) Barbarians can fly
Which also plays into looking at not just what your class is capable of, but how much one individual character is capable of. By the time you've hit the last few levels of play, 1 wizard can (to borrow from MrSin) teleport, travel through planes, throw out AoE SoL spells, turn invisible, fly all day, create multiple images to avoid harm, cast resistance on them and their friends on a hot day or one where they fight a dragon in a volcanoe, cast protection from spells, steal the class features of other classes(temporarily, charm people in a single round making them their bestest buddy, dominate people's minds and make them robot-like slaves, turn into a dragon/ giant/ beast, control space and time, etc., not just within the same build, but in one batch of prepared spells. Line up the spells per day and the listed abilities and start tallying them up, it's not even hard.
Meanwhile, the same barbarian can't take both dragon totem and beast totem, so no built in pounce and fly on the same build.|
|
A wizard at 18th level is likely far worse. That's only 16 spells.Actually, by higher levels, one single wizard can have all of the listed options in his prepared repertoire. That isn't Schroedinger's Wizard, that's a wizard at 18th level.Full casters are something akin to a physical god though, because they can teleport, travel through planes, throw out AoE SoL spells, turn invisible, fly all day, create multiple images to avoid harm, cast resistance on them and their friends on a hot day or one where they fight a dragon in a volcanoe, cast protection from spells, steal the class features of other classes(temporarily, charm people in a single round making them their bestest buddy, dominate people's minds and make them robot-like slaves, turn into a dragon/ giant/ beast, control space and time, etc. They have a ton of options. Some good and powerful narrative that you may have to plan around, and others bad that really they should never use if their sane.They only get to do all of that at any given time if your playing Schrodinger's wizard.
I picked 18 to accomodate for the fact that a couple of the best examples for the listed abilities fall into the 9th level spell slot, so I went with the level at which every wizard has at least 2 9th level spells. To be fair though, "control space and time" doesn't have to be time stop and create demiplane, so there's probably a lot of ways you could meet all of those criteria at lower levels.
None of which changes the fact that a single 18th level Wizard could do every listed option, plus like 20 - 30 other things, or several of the listed things 2 or 3 times, depending on what he felt like.|
|
Which also plays into looking at not just what your class is capable of, but how much one individual character is capable of. By the time you've hit the last few levels of play, 1 wizard can (to borrow from MrSin) teleport, travel through planes, throw out AoE SoL spells, turn invisible, fly all day, create multiple images to avoid harm, cast resistance on them and their friends on a hot day or one where they fight a dragon in a volcanoe, cast protection from spells, steal the class features of other classes(temporarily, charm people in a single round making them their bestest buddy, dominate people's minds and make them robot-like slaves, turn into a dragon/ giant/ beast, control space and time, etc., not just within the same build, but in one batch of prepared spells. Line up the spells per day and the listed abilities and start tallying them up, it's not even hard.
Meanwhile, the same barbarian can't take both dragon totem and beast totem, so no built in pounce and fly on the same build.
I agree completely.
To be fair though, "control space and time" doesn't have to be time stop and create demiplane, so there's probably a lot of ways you could meet all of those criteria at lower levels.
Actually I was thinking create pit and haste/slow.
Time and space are apparently not that hard to mess with.
|
|
To be fair though, "control space and time" doesn't have to be time stop and create demiplane, so there's probably a lot of ways you could meet all of those criteria at lower levels.Actually I was thinking create pit and haste/slow.
Time and space are apparently not that hard to mess with.
That statement also points to a large portion of the issue. When discussing a caster manipulating time and space, we first have to distinguish if we are referencing that manipulation on either a local or cosmic scale.
Yes, if turning into a dragon is the same as fighting in a different form(whatever that is), and teleporting 100 miles per caster level in a single round is the same as a single move action, then its only a slightly different scale. Summon monster is the same as getting on your horse, riding to heaven, and picking up an angel to come hang with you for a bit.
I think dominated people make horrible friends personally, mind you.
Fighting in a different form like that of a beast, a dragon, a giant? That's what fighting in a different form is. Shape, if you prefer the language of the polymorph spells. That's actually the one that I think most non-lycanthropes lack as far as options, sans magical gear.
Teleporting to point X is literally moving to point X.
Summon Monster is the same as bringing an ally onto the battlefield. If you can get on your horse and ride to heaven to pick up an angel to come hang a bit, I suppose that functions similarly to planar ally, yes.
It seems fairly easy to pace an adventure to accommodate teleport or horseback travel, in the situations where they are functionally identical. In the situations where they are not, such as not having a clear destination to teleport to, it seems it would be simpler to obtain horses than to obtain teleport.
|
|
That statement also points to a large portion of the issue. When discussing a caster manipulating time and space, we first have to distinguish if we are referencing that manipulation on either a local or cosmic scale.To be fair though, "control space and time" doesn't have to be time stop and create demiplane, so there's probably a lot of ways you could meet all of those criteria at lower levels.Actually I was thinking create pit and haste/slow.
Time and space are apparently not that hard to mess with.
True dat. Really, a single casting of Summon Monster I covers "control space and time" (you are plucking a creature from another plane and instantaneously transporting them to your location after all), and later iterations of the ability can cover most of the other abilities as well.
Addressing that point though, it's definitely not Schroedinger's wizard when literally any wizard in the game has the capability to meet those criteria.
[rerail]
And, uh.... Yes, we still have Fighters at our table, because sometimes you like a challenge and you're tired of lugging around the mantle of great responsibility that comes with great power, and other times you know the adventure is never going to get past 6th level anyways and you'd rather not waste the time putting together a spell list and getting all strategic for a 3 session dungeon crawl. [/rerail]
That statement also points to a large portion of the issue. When discussing a caster manipulating time and space, we first have to distinguish if we are referencing that manipulation on either a local or cosmic scale.To be fair though, "control space and time" doesn't have to be time stop and create demiplane, so there's probably a lot of ways you could meet all of those criteria at lower levels.Actually I was thinking create pit and haste/slow.
Time and space are apparently not that hard to mess with.
I don't know if its an issue, I think the fact you have multiple ways to make it your plaything is pretty nifty and makes it hard to be wrong about the fact you can do it. I mean, what I named is the tip of the iceberg with spells. No illusion spells in it, fabrication makes mundane crafting look like a joke, I didn't mention summoning either. Lots and lots of options. Meanwhile, the playstyle of martials is to... hit things, and not in too many, if any, different ways.
That said, I've never seen a real lack of martials. I'd wager I see more martially inclined characters than not. My current group is Beastmorph/vivisectionist alchemist, battle cleric, barbarian, and magus/zen archer/whateverhechosetoplaytoday. I do think they could be more fun though, the current group would probably prefer Legend to Pathfinder, but I'm not running the show.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
And, uh.... Yes, we still have Fighters at our table
That said, I've never seen a real lack of martials.
And rightly so. All talk of power and mechanical imbalance aside, who really wants to keep playing the same character over and over again? Sometimes you want omniscient cosmic power. Sometimes you just want to be the best damn swordsman in the land.
I can't speak for anyone else, but while I personally love my casters and do genuinely believe they are hands down without equal mechanically strong, I would get bored of role-playing very quickly if that was all I ever chose to play.
To date my total Pathfinder experience has been (3 years in - what can I say, I was a hard sell away from 3.5?):
PFS - Monk [Qinggong] 19.1
PFS - Void Elementalist 6/Magaambyan Arcanist 10/Loremaster 3
PFS - Magus [Bladebound, Fiend Flayer, Kensai] 16
PFS - Ranger [Spirit Ranger] 8/Fighter [Weapon Master] 4
PFS - Alchemist [Mindchemist] 4 (our current set of play characters)
Non PFS - Summoner [Synthesist] 2
We decided for our next round of PFS characters to all run characters with no magic whatsoever for some added challenge. Probably going to roll up a some sort of Fighter [Aldori Swordlord]/Aldori Swordlord/Duelist. Had a fun idea for a Chelaxian who had ranks of Profession (lawyer), and worked as a professional duelist in lands where legal disputes could be settled through a duel. Sounds fun to me.
It seems fairly easy to pace an adventure to accommodate teleport or horseback travel, in the situations where they are functionally identical. In the situations where they are not, such as not having a clear destination to teleport to, it seems it would be simpler to obtain horses than to obtain teleport.
The time I most see teleport mess with the design is when it directly affects the encounter. Your conjurer/summoner decides to DD most of the party past your battalion of soldiers, right next to the BBEG, then do some serious damage. Extra points if its built on your BBEG not being hit. Having narrative isn't necessarily a bad thing though.
Oh! And one time I had a GM that may not have been a fan of me for my ability to teleport, because we had to have no roll mishaps occur to force me onto the railroad. I think he may have been adjusting the clock on our mission every time I skipped past the walking through the forest for weeks gig too, but that's another story.
Yes, we still have Fighters at our table, because sometimes you like a challenge(...)and other times you know the adventure is never going to get past 6th level anyways and you'd rather not waste the time putting together a spell list and getting all strategic for a 3 session dungeon crawl. [/rerail]
That part is rather telling.
And it's what I see, too.For low level play martials are fine. Sometimes they are played at higher levels, too but not because they are that strong.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
|
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
And, uh.... Yes, we still have Fighters at our tableThat said, I've never seen a real lack of martials.And rightly so. All talk of power and mechanical imbalance aside, who really wants to keep playing the same character over and over again? Sometimes you want omniscient cosmic power. Sometimes you just want to be the best damn swordsman in the land.
I can't speak for anyone else, but while I personally love my casters and do genuinely believe they are hands down without equal mechanically strong, I would get bored of role-playing very quickly if that was all I ever chose to play.
Word. Just because A is demonstrably more potent than B, doesn't mean that I won't find reasons to play B.
One of my favorite characters is Istaak Windbrother, my Shoanti Fighter/Barbarian (Mad Dog). TWF with a klar and Earthbreaker at 2nd level is just good fun, as is playing "fastball special" with my pet panda.
"Casters can be OP" =/= "I think Fighters are stupid dumbheads and would never play one and people who do are also stupid dumbheads".
I think most people who are upset by the imbalances between casters and non-casters aren't trying to say that they think no one should ever play a non-caster, but rather that it's incredibly frustrating that the game has given casters this toolbox full of goodies that basically tells the martial "I can do anything you can do better". It would be nice if martials had more things that were unique to them, or abilities whose effectiveness, painstakingly built up over the course of 13 levels, wasn't emulatable at 9th level by a 1st level buff that is actually more versatile.
|
|
And, uh.... Yes, we still have Fighters at our tableThat said, I've never seen a real lack of martials.And rightly so. All talk of power and mechanical imbalance aside, who really wants to keep playing the same character over and over again? Sometimes you want omniscient cosmic power. Sometimes you just want to be the best damn swordsman in the land.
I can't speak for anyone else, but while I personally love my casters and do genuinely believe they are hands down without equal mechanically strong, I would get bored of role-playing very quickly if that was all I ever chose to play.
Word. Just because A is demonstrably more potent than B, doesn't mean that I won't find reasons to play B.
One of my favorite characters is Istaak Windbrother, my Shoanti Fighter/Barbarian (Mad Dog). TWF with a klar and Earthbreaker at 2nd level is just good fun, as is playing "fastball special" with my pet panda.
"Casters can be OP" =/= "I think Fighters are stupid dumbheads and would never play one and people who do are also stupid dumbheads".
I think most people who are upset by the imbalances between casters and non-casters aren't trying to say that they think no one should ever play a non-caster, but rather that it's incredibly frustrating that the game has given casters this toolbox full of goodies that basically tells the martial "I can do anything you can do better". It would be nice if martials had more things that were unique to them, or abilities whose effectiveness, painstakingly built up over the course of 13 levels, wasn't emulatable at 9th level by a 1st level buff that is actually more versatile.
I find I can't even really bother myself to consider that far ahead (in terms of balancing martial vs. caster). I'd settle just to have martials balanced against each other. I am still pretty sore about the Crane Wing "fix".
It seems fairly easy to pace an adventure to accommodate teleport or horseback travel, in the situations where they are functionally identical. In the situations where they are not, such as not having a clear destination to teleport to, it seems it would be simpler to obtain horses than to obtain teleport.The time I most see teleport mess with the design is when it directly affects the encounter. Your conjurer/summoner decides to DD most of the party past your battalion of soldiers, right next to the BBEG, then do some serious damage. Extra points if its built on your BBEG not being hit. Having narrative isn't necessarily a bad thing though.
Oh! And one time I had a GM that may not have been a fan of me for my ability to teleport, because we had to have no roll mishaps occur to force me onto the railroad. I think he may have been adjusting the clock on our mission every time I skipped past the walking through the forest for weeks gig too, but that's another story.
A floating clock is just part of the game. Effort matters more. No DM in their right mind would say "oh...no one has teleport? You can't get there today, you all lose, the world dies." So why would they say "Oh, you have teleport? Campaign over, you win."
I guess I've never had an issue with teleport or DD ruining an encounter though. There's been some good use of it in my games, but it generally involves moving a fighter into full attack position, or getting the entire party into the crimelord's mansion for some murderizing. But then, I expect to both challenge and provide 'time to shine' for every player, regardless of their abilities. Sometimes that means your teleportation is the only thing that saves the day. Sometimes that means the bad guy doesn't care about the long term health hazards of lead paint, and you can't port in.
And, uh.... Yes, we still have Fighters at our tableThat said, I've never seen a real lack of martials.And rightly so. All talk of power and mechanical imbalance aside, who really wants to keep playing the same character over and over again? Sometimes you want omniscient cosmic power. Sometimes you just want to be the best damn swordsman in the land.
I can't speak for anyone else, but while I personally love my casters and do genuinely believe they are hands down without equal mechanically strong, I would get bored of role-playing very quickly if that was all I ever chose to play.
Word. Just because A is demonstrably more potent than B, doesn't mean that I won't find reasons to play B.
One of my favorite characters is Istaak Windbrother, my Shoanti Fighter/Barbarian (Mad Dog). TWF with a klar and Earthbreaker at 2nd level is just good fun, as is playing "fastball special" with my pet panda.
"Casters can be OP" =/= "I think Fighters are stupid dumbheads and would never play one and people who do are also stupid dumbheads".
I think most people who are upset by the imbalances between casters and non-casters aren't trying to say that they think no one should ever play a non-caster, but rather that it's incredibly frustrating that the game has given casters this toolbox full of goodies that basically tells the martial "I can do anything you can do better". It would be nice if martials had more things that were unique to them, or abilities whose effectiveness, painstakingly built up over the course of 13 levels, wasn't emulatable at 9th level by a 1st level buff that is actually more versatile.
Pretty much this. Ruby from RWBY is not a high level martial. She's like level 10-12, tops. And there is absolutely no way to come even close to the kind of things she can do with any current martial class. The problem with martial classes as I see it is mostly a "high level" problem, though what that level is exactly is fuzzy. I've had a monk realize he was useless at level 13 and I've had a samurai who didn't realize for the entire campaign how limited his abilities were. Either way, once stuff like 5th level spells come online, the martials weaknesses really start to show, because they change the narrative of the story. It's not longer the low fantasy paradigm around which martials seem to be designed.
It's not that I don't play martials, I do (admittedly mostly 3.5) its that I want martials to have the tools to fulfill high level martial concepts. The problem is to many people think high level martials are "to anime" when what they really mean is "to celtic mythology".