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Ok, safe to assume then that you can not do it with a wizard?.
A proper optimizer wizard (void school) actually gets quite close if you dump Dex for Cha and use eldritch heritage and noble scion.
Level 20 relevant stats: Con 26, Int 40, Wis 11, Cha 24
6/6/12 base
8/-2/0 stats
1 competence (pale green ioun stone)
6 insight (void awareness class feature)
2 luck (stone of good luck + fate's favored)
6 morale (greater heroism, +4 courageous gauntlet)
8 resistance (cloak + protection from spells)
7 bestow grace of the champion
Ends up being Fort +44, Ref +34, Will +42. Again, underselling a bit.
Invisible Flying Wizard: Huh... I don't see anything here.And again, your statement shows that you do not have any understanding of the Tier system, at all. The Barbarian has one good option "hit things". That is not Tier 2. Tier 2 means you'd have to be able to effectively do a broad array of things other than hit things, like bypass encounters, disable magical traps, successfully maneuver social situations, etc.There you go again.
The barbar only has one option! Oh no!
Too bad that option can solve all of your problems with enough application.
Kingdom starving? Kill off the hungry people or kill the people of a nearby kingdom for their food.
Sauron about to take over the world? Either sunder the ring yourself or solo his army and tear down his tower.
Kyuss invading? Slay him yourself.
Hundreds of dragon attacking? Pull out your bow or wrestle one into submission and go fly swapping.
Rapture? Solo the dark horde and kill Lucifer before bro-Jesus can finish saying "kill steal"
Yeah that wizard who is dangerous to you! Pfff
Until the caster is in combat or speaking (-20 to stealth), moving (lose standing still bonus and even more penalties if more than 5ft). Oh and the barbar has pretty good perception too. Pinpoints your square and just shoots you to death with a bow (only a 50% miss chance)
Oh I could. I just don't have the numbers on hand for it. Mostly because my high level Wizard is Neutral. If I used a LG Wizard Bestow Grace (starting from a 10 CHA) would give only +9, which is a +8 difference from the above. That's manageable. Otherwordly Kimono with a trapped subject raises Resistance to +6, and Moment of Greatness can make the +6 Morale a +12. Comes to a total of +51. Still underselling a few things.
Invisible Flying Wizard: Huh... I don't see anything here.And again, your statement shows that you do not have any understanding of the Tier system, at all. The Barbarian has one good option "hit things". That is not Tier 2. Tier 2 means you'd have to be able to effectively do a broad array of things other than hit things, like bypass encounters, disable magical traps, successfully maneuver social situations, etc.There you go again.
The barbar only has one option! Oh no!
Too bad that option can solve all of your problems with enough application.
Kingdom starving? Kill off the hungry people or kill the people of a nearby kingdom for their food.
Sauron about to take over the world? Either sunder the ring yourself or solo his army and tear down his tower.
Kyuss invading? Slay him yourself.
Hundreds of dragon attacking? Pull out your bow or wrestle one into submission and go fly swapping.
Rapture? Solo the dark horde and kill Lucifer before bro-Jesus can finish saying "kill steal"
Yeah that wizard who is dangerous to you! Pfff
Until the caster is in combat or speaking (-20 to stealth), moving (lose standing still bonus and even more penalties if more than 5ft). Oh and the barbar has pretty good perception too. Pinpoints your square and just shoots you to death with a bow (only a 50% miss chance)
You mean 0% hit chance /Fickle Winds.
Pounce monster Barbarian causing problems? Drop him down a pit where his only way out is to jump 11 feet vertically and let him starve to death.
Rip apart his magic items with disjunction spells he can't do anything about and then pepper him with save-and-still-sucks until he's exhausted and debuffed to the point where he'll easily fail a nice save-or-die.
Stab/climb your way out of the pit.
Oh no disjunction! "An item in a creature's possession uses its own Will save bonus or its possessor's Will save bonus"
Hahaha yeah that will work. The items only get suppress for the duration too even if he did somehow manage to fail a save.
EDIT: Targeting one item at a time at close range will still probably fail and you are dangerously close.
Ok, safe to assume then that you can not do it with a wizard?.A proper optimizer wizard (void school) actually gets quite close if you dump Dex for Cha and use eldritch heritage and noble scion.
Level 20 relevant stats: Con 26, Int 40, Wis 11, Cha 24
6/6/12 base
8/-2/0 stats
1 competence (pale green ioun stone)
6 insight (void awareness class feature)
2 luck (stone of good luck + fate's favored)
6 morale (greater heroism, +4 courageous gauntlet)
8 resistance (cloak + protection from spells)
7 bestow grace of the championEnds up being Fort +44, Ref +34, Will +42. Again, underselling a bit.
Pretty impresive.
You mean 0% hit chance /Fickle Winds.Invisible Flying Wizard: Huh... I don't see anything here.And again, your statement shows that you do not have any understanding of the Tier system, at all. The Barbarian has one good option "hit things". That is not Tier 2. Tier 2 means you'd have to be able to effectively do a broad array of things other than hit things, like bypass encounters, disable magical traps, successfully maneuver social situations, etc.There you go again.
The barbar only has one option! Oh no!
Too bad that option can solve all of your problems with enough application.
Kingdom starving? Kill off the hungry people or kill the people of a nearby kingdom for their food.
Sauron about to take over the world? Either sunder the ring yourself or solo his army and tear down his tower.
Kyuss invading? Slay him yourself.
Hundreds of dragon attacking? Pull out your bow or wrestle one into submission and go fly swapping.
Rapture? Solo the dark horde and kill Lucifer before bro-Jesus can finish saying "kill steal"
Yeah that wizard who is dangerous to you! Pfff
Until the caster is in combat or speaking (-20 to stealth), moving (lose standing still bonus and even more penalties if more than 5ft). Oh and the barbar has pretty good perception too. Pinpoints your square and just shoots you to death with a bow (only a 50% miss chance)
Damn, looks like he has to just throw boulders.
Pretty impresive.Ok, safe to assume then that you can not do it with a wizard?.A proper optimizer wizard (void school) actually gets quite close if you dump Dex for Cha and use eldritch heritage and noble scion.
Level 20 relevant stats: Con 26, Int 40, Wis 11, Cha 24
6/6/12 base
8/-2/0 stats
1 competence (pale green ioun stone)
6 insight (void awareness class feature)
2 luck (stone of good luck + fate's favored)
6 morale (greater heroism, +4 courageous gauntlet)
8 resistance (cloak + protection from spells)
7 bestow grace of the championEnds up being Fort +44, Ref +34, Will +42. Again, underselling a bit.
even more so when I can assure you Lormyr follows WBL.
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so what does this have to do with the original topic other than another x sucks thread ?
I wouldn't say its X sucks, but I would say that when there are three very similar topics its easy to forget which one we're in, and its not hard to go off course when people explain why they do something or someone talks about something unrelated.
As far as im concerned everyone should be it is a team game no one should be constantly trying to one man show (even if they can) and being a jerk about it.
Some people are better team players than others. Some classes are better team players than others also.
What does this have to do with whether people who say martials are underpowered or spellcasters overpowered play martials anyway?
Until the caster is in combat or speaking (-20 to stealth), moving (lose standing still bonus and even more penalties if more than 5ft). Oh and the barbar has pretty good perception too. Pinpoints your square and just shoots you to death with a bow (only a 50% miss chance)
Even by the most lenient of interpretations, the DC to pinpoint a stationary invisible creature is 60 + stealth. Barbar isn't finding him before he casts a spell.
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so what does this have to do with the original topic other than another x sucks thread ?I wouldn't say its X sucks, but I would say that when there are three very similar topics its easy to forget which one we're in, and its not hard to go off course when people explain why they do something or someone talks about something unrelated.
As far as im concerned everyone should be it is a team game no one should be constantly trying to one man show (even if they can) and being a jerk about it.Some people are better team players than others. Some classes are better team players than others also.
What does this have to do with whether people who say martials are underpowered or spellcasters overpowered play martials anyway?
well considering the thread was asking how I feel about seeing a underpowered class I was just expressing my opinion
I don't always play casters, but when I do I pity the martials.
Yeah...
What I wouldn't kill for prestidigitation.
*I say that in all seriousness. Caster is next on my rotation. Past three PCs have been monk, rogue, fighter. Before monk going backwards was Master Summoner, Druid, Sorcerer, 3.5 Sorcerer.
Maxing out KS Religion is pretty much impossible for most Sorc, and difficult for wizards.
Unless of course you meta game like crazy.
You think it is difficult for a wizard to take one of the most important knowledge skills for identifying members of one of the most dangerous group of monsters in the game?
Clearly you play a very different version of the game from many.
Not difficult to TAkE, difficult to max out. Read carefully.
It's very difficult for a sorc to spend even one point.
Even by the most lenient of interpretations, the DC to pinpoint a stationary invisible creature is 60 + stealth. Barbar isn't finding him before he casts a spell.Until the caster is in combat or speaking (-20 to stealth), moving (lose standing still bonus and even more penalties if more than 5ft). Oh and the barbar has pretty good perception too. Pinpoints your square and just shoots you to death with a bow (only a 50% miss chance)
Most of us don't double stack the bonus...
Most of us don't double stack the bonus...Even by the most lenient of interpretations, the DC to pinpoint a stationary invisible creature is 60 + stealth. Barbar isn't finding him before he casts a spell.Until the caster is in combat or speaking (-20 to stealth), moving (lose standing still bonus and even more penalties if more than 5ft). Oh and the barbar has pretty good perception too. Pinpoints your square and just shoots you to death with a bow (only a 50% miss chance)
I don't know ANY one who double stacks the bonus.
Ok, safe to assume then that you can not do it with a wizard?.A proper optimizer wizard (void school) actually gets quite close if you dump Dex for Cha and use eldritch heritage and noble scion.
I think I missed something here; off the top of my head I can't think of any Bloodline that would help out here... but then again I'm not terribly familiar with most Bloodlines beyond their Arcana and low level abilities. Could you clarify to sate my curiosity?
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Invisible Flying Wizard: Huh... I don't see anything here.And again, your statement shows that you do not have any understanding of the Tier system, at all. The Barbarian has one good option "hit things". That is not Tier 2. Tier 2 means you'd have to be able to effectively do a broad array of things other than hit things, like bypass encounters, disable magical traps, successfully maneuver social situations, etc.There you go again.
The barbar only has one option! Oh no!
Too bad that option can solve all of your problems with enough application.
Kingdom starving? Kill off the hungry people or kill the people of a nearby kingdom for their food.
Sauron about to take over the world? Either sunder the ring yourself or solo his army and tear down his tower.
Kyuss invading? Slay him yourself.
Hundreds of dragon attacking? Pull out your bow or wrestle one into submission and go fly swapping.
Rapture? Solo the dark horde and kill Lucifer before bro-Jesus can finish saying "kill steal"
Archer fighter closes his eyes and only suffers a 50% miss chance.
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Ok, safe to assume then that you can not do it with a wizard?.A proper optimizer wizard (void school) actually gets quite close if you dump Dex for Cha and use eldritch heritage and noble scion.
Level 20 relevant stats: Con 26, Int 40, Wis 11, Cha 24
6/6/12 base
8/-2/0 stats
1 competence (pale green ioun stone)
6 insight (void awareness class feature)
2 luck (stone of good luck + fate's favored)
6 morale (greater heroism, +4 courageous gauntlet)
8 resistance (cloak + protection from spells)
7 bestow grace of the championEnds up being Fort +44, Ref +34, Will +42. Again, underselling a bit.
Eldritch Heritage is at least as good for Barbarians as Wizards (Orc Bloodline leaps to mind). A Cha of 20 or so is quite reasonable, with a 24-26 easily possible (especially with a single level Oracle dip...great for Barbarians). And Bestow Grace (the cheaper, 2nd level, version of Paladin Save Enhancers) is available as potions pretty cheap.
In short, if your 'this is better than Barbarian Saves' build relies on a Paladin-only spell...well, Barbarians can take the Charisma to make use of that, too, and use it as easily as you.
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The barbar only has one option! Oh no!Too bad that option can solve all of your problems with enough application.
Well, you can't, really.
Kingdom starving? Kill off the hungry people or kill the people of a nearby kingdom for their food.
Which causes a whole slew of other issues. You haven't bypassed a problem by hitting something, you've punched it so hard it got worse.
Sauron about to take over the world? Either sunder the ring yourself or solo his army and tear down his tower.
Well, the ring is indestructible outside of the fires of Mount Doom. Can't sunder that, that's the point of major artifacts. Sauron can't be killed without doing so, and while you could probably solo his mooks, you'll eventually be taken down by weight of numbers (or a spellcaster).
Kyuss invading? Slay him yourself.
Possible. That is definitely something that could be solved by hitting something really hard.
Hundreds of dragon attacking? Pull out your bow or wrestle one into submission and go fly swapping.
These dragons are probably competent spellcasters if they're old enough, and if they're not, that's just a bunch of lower-CR fights, probably.
Rapture? Solo the dark horde and kill Lucifer before bro-Jesus can finish saying "kill steal"
Depends on the stats of Lucifer and the dark horde, but if it's, say, an army of high-level fiends and a well-played god/demigod? Probably not.
Here's another set of encounters that the barbarian might want to solve:
- Murder mystery, but the killer is long gone.
- Magical (or nonmagical) plague is ravaging the land.
- King's daughter is locked in a pocket dimension, and the BBEG is holding her hostage with a deadman switch or something.
- The macguffin is on another planet, you need to retrieve it.
- The macguffin is broken and needs to be fixed.
- The world is disintegrating, and the BBEG's diabolical plan will save parts of it, but at terrible cost. One might be able to come up with another plan, but it'd take, well, magic.
If you cannot solve encounters without relying on the DM to provide you with ones you can solve with your one trick, you're Tier 4, even if you can solve any encounter that can be solved with it.
I just don't see it. The barbarian only marginalizes other martials because he's the only one who's actually effective at his job and is allowed to get other tools, not because he breaks the system. He makes the fighter look bad because he's the fighter without the "But it's not realisitc enough!" rule imposed on every class feature he has.
I think if the barbar is the only one who is good enough, then he marginalizes martials better than casters.
The fighter thing annoys me too. A barbar without ranks in acrobatics should be able to jump 30ft in the air just with his strength score using basic physics equations.
A fighter with ranks in jump and a decent strength score should be able to jump just as high if not farther.
Yet both can barely jump 3ft off the ground... That may be realistic, but it doesn't make any sense.
Some of the barbar tools don't make sense which is an issue for me and I don't want to see similar things happen to other martials. (Ex. Spell sunder, disliking magic allows you to remove interrogate curses? Pounce allows you to swing your sword faster? On the other hand channeling the power of dragons to grow wings and fly does make sense.)
Likewise though, I want to see sensible extrapolation from what martials actually do applied to other things.
Here's another set of encounters that the barbarian might want to solve:
- Murder mystery, but the killer is long gone.
- Magical (or nonmagical) plague is ravaging the land.
- King's daughter is locked in a pocket dimension, and the BBEG is holding her hostage with a deadman switch or something.
- The macguffin is on another planet, you need to retrieve it.
- The macguffin is broken and needs to be fixed.
- The world is disintegrating, and the BBEG's diabolical plan will save parts of it, but at terrible cost. One might be able to come up with another plan, but it'd take, well, magic.If you cannot solve encounters without relying on the DM to provide you with ones you can solve with your one trick, you're Tier 4, even if you can solve any encounter that can be solved with it.
-Track with survival! Or kill random people until he is dead!
-Kill all the infected people, like you can fail a fort save?-Kill BBEG. Then the King. Take crown. Use queen to make another princess.
-Why do I need to do that?
-Again why?
-Sunder the disintegrating effect, sounds magical. Then kill BBEG, he probably caused the problem in the first place.
Violence is always an answer.
Here's another set of encounters that the barbarian might want to solve:
- Murder mystery, but the killer is long gone.
- Magical (or nonmagical) plague is ravaging the land.
- King's daughter is locked in a pocket dimension, and the BBEG is holding her hostage with a deadman switch or something.
- The macguffin is on another planet, you need to retrieve it.
- The macguffin is broken and needs to be fixed.
- The world is disintegrating, and the BBEG's diabolical plan will save parts of it, but at terrible cost. One might be able to come up with another plan, but it'd take, well, magic.If you cannot solve encounters without relying on the DM to provide you with ones you can solve with your one trick, you're Tier 4, even if you can solve any encounter that can be solved with it.
-Track with survival! Or kill random people until he is dead!
-Kill all the infected people, like you can fail a fort save?
-Kill BBEG. Then the King. Take crown. Use queen to make another princess.
-Why do I need to do that?
-Again why?
-Sunder the disintegrating effect, sounds magical. Then kill BBEG, he probably caused the problem in the first place.Violence is always an answer.
How about less morally dubious or downright not good options hm?
Violence is sometimes not an answer. Do you really think it is?
Here's another set of encounters that the barbarian might want to solve:
- Murder mystery, but the killer is long gone.
- Magical (or nonmagical) plague is ravaging the land.
- King's daughter is locked in a pocket dimension, and the BBEG is holding her hostage with a deadman switch or something.
- The macguffin is on another planet, you need to retrieve it.
- The macguffin is broken and needs to be fixed.
- The world is disintegrating, and the BBEG's diabolical plan will save parts of it, but at terrible cost. One might be able to come up with another plan, but it'd take, well, magic.If you cannot solve encounters without relying on the DM to provide you with ones you can solve with your one trick, you're Tier 4, even if you can solve any encounter that can be solved with it.
-Track with survival! Or kill random people until he is dead!
-Kill all the infected people, like you can fail a fort save?
-Kill BBEG. Then the King. Take crown. Use queen to make another princess.
-Why do I need to do that?
-Again why?
-Sunder the disintegrating effect, sounds magical. Then kill BBEG, he probably caused the problem in the first place.Violence is always an answer.
How about less morally dubious or downright not good options hm?
Violence is sometimes not an answer. Do you really think it is?
Oh it's always an answer. That doesn't means it can't be worse than doing nothing, but enough violence solves all problems.
Here's another set of encounters that the barbarian might want to solve:
- Murder mystery, but the killer is long gone.
- Magical (or nonmagical) plague is ravaging the land.
- King's daughter is locked in a pocket dimension, and the BBEG is holding her hostage with a deadman switch or something.
- The macguffin is on another planet, you need to retrieve it.
- The macguffin is broken and needs to be fixed.
- The world is disintegrating, and the BBEG's diabolical plan will save parts of it, but at terrible cost. One might be able to come up with another plan, but it'd take, well, magic.If you cannot solve encounters without relying on the DM to provide you with ones you can solve with your one trick, you're Tier 4, even if you can solve any encounter that can be solved with it.
-Track with survival! Or kill random people until he is dead!
-Kill all the infected people, like you can fail a fort save?
-Kill BBEG. Then the King. Take crown. Use queen to make another princess.
-Why do I need to do that?
-Again why?
-Sunder the disintegrating effect, sounds magical. Then kill BBEG, he probably caused the problem in the first place.Violence is always an answer.
HAHAHAHA, I love the seriousness in Marthkus's tone
HAHAHAHA, I love the seriousness in Marthkus's toneHere's another set of encounters that the barbarian might want to solve:
- Murder mystery, but the killer is long gone.
- Magical (or nonmagical) plague is ravaging the land.
- King's daughter is locked in a pocket dimension, and the BBEG is holding her hostage with a deadman switch or something.
- The macguffin is on another planet, you need to retrieve it.
- The macguffin is broken and needs to be fixed.
- The world is disintegrating, and the BBEG's diabolical plan will save parts of it, but at terrible cost. One might be able to come up with another plan, but it'd take, well, magic.If you cannot solve encounters without relying on the DM to provide you with ones you can solve with your one trick, you're Tier 4, even if you can solve any encounter that can be solved with it.
-Track with survival! Or kill random people until he is dead!
-Kill all the infected people, like you can fail a fort save?
-Kill BBEG. Then the King. Take crown. Use queen to make another princess.
-Why do I need to do that?
-Again why?
-Sunder the disintegrating effect, sounds magical. Then kill BBEG, he probably caused the problem in the first place.Violence is always an answer.
The killing random people thing was actual done by drug cartels when anonymous tried messing with them.
It worked... they forgave and forgot...
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I think I missed something here; off the top of my head I can't think of any Bloodline that would help out here... but then again I'm not terribly familiar with most Bloodlines beyond their Arcana and low level abilities. Could you clarify to sate my curiosity?Ok, safe to assume then that you can not do it with a wizard?.A proper optimizer wizard (void school) actually gets quite close if you dump Dex for Cha and use eldritch heritage and noble scion.
Oh, that's my fault for being poorly worded. The eldritch heritage selection is for spell DC in the arcane line, not to help with saves. You just need some Cha to go that route, so I was suggesting it is not a terrible idea to dump Dex and invest in Cha instead if you were already planning to take a heritage.
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Eldritch Heritage is at least as good for Barbarians as Wizards (Orc Bloodline leaps to mind). A Cha of 20 or so is quite reasonable, with a 24-26 easily possible (especially with a single level Oracle dip...great for Barbarians). And Bestow Grace (the cheaper, 2nd level, version of Paladin Save Enhancers) is available as potions pretty cheap.
In short, if your 'this is better than Barbarian Saves' build relies on a Paladin-only spell...well, Barbarians can take the Charisma to make use of that, too, and use it as easily as you.
No arguments there my friend. The barbarian using that spell, and going with a tertiary Cha priority, can pretty simply reach or surpass the wizard's saves.
The Sorcerer and Oracle are still several points higher, however.
For the purposes of this thread, I'd like people to just assume (or accept for the sake of the argument) that casters are "better" than martials rather than debating that point.
I wondered how that translates at the table for those groups who feel this way? Do you find that nobody plays rogues or fighters?
I ask because in the posts where people list their parties, there often seem to be martial classes around. I wondered whether people are houseruling those classes, whether the players of casters just "play nice" and dont tread on the toes of the martial players or what other solutions people have found.
I don't think casters are automatically better than martials, but at least two of my players do. Also, given some of the latest round of errata and published options (check out the witch ability for deadly dealer and the rogue talent for it in the Harrow Handbook), I'm moderate enough to concede that martials seem to have several hurdles to clear to equal ease of play.
That said, the two players who believe casters are superior both play martials (fighter and fighter/barb) who routinely take apart my encounters, while the person who plays a wizard has repeatedly stated they feel the shoe is on the other foot. (Either the game itself or the DM style favors martials over casters.)
I do have a few houserules. At BaB +11, you can either make your +11 attack as a standard action or your +6/+1 attacks as a standard action. I've been considering replacing that with just automatically providing Vital Strike and friends at the appropriate level.
I allow fighters to choose entire weapon groups for their weapon specific feats, and allow anyone to take fighter specific weapon feats like weapon spec, assuming their BaB = the fighter level required. So a paladin 12 can take GWS (longsword) and a fighter 12 can take GWS (heavy blades). And a wizard 8 can take WS (quarterstaff) but that doesn't seem to crop up too often.
Monks use full attack bonus for fighting unarmed or with monk weapons, including their CMB. Unarmed damage for non-monks with IUS increases with BaB, thought at a slower rate.
Enhancement bonuses don't penetrate any DR other than /magic (+1), /greater magic (+3) and /high magic (+5)
I'm also trying to get a talented fighter up and running to make them a bit more interesting.
Previous martial players have included a rogue, monk, paladin, ranger, barbarian, cleric/rogue and bard/rogue.
Current party is Wizard (with 1 rogue level dip), Fighter, Fighter/Barbarian, Cleric.
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How is the sorcerer or wizard getting the "give me that martials class features please!" spell?Absolute worse case "holy crap, I need this now" situation? Limited wish to duplicate Bestow Grace of the Champion.
Aside from the 1.5k diamond, which would have to be purchased in advance, Bestow Grace of the Champion requires a Lawful Good alignment.
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Aside from the 1.5k diamond, which would have to be purchased in advance, Bestow Grace of the Champion requires a Lawful Good alignment.How is the sorcerer or wizard getting the "give me that martials class features please!" spell?Absolute worse case "holy crap, I need this now" situation? Limited wish to duplicate Bestow Grace of the Champion.
Blood money is always superior to spending actual gold, so that is not a concern.
You could also always use Bestow Grace instead as well. I actually prefer that one personally because it has a 1 min/level duration, and requires any good alignment vs. lawful good.
That aside, using limited wish is an extremely inefficient means of getting it. A simple wand and UMD is the best course, and should be readily accessible for a default Pathfinder game.
So a Wand of Bestow Grace of the Champion is actually +75k to its cost? Or is the diamond not consumed?
As for 880k of items...I agree that's a lot of MINOR items. Unfortunately, the big 6 tend to eat up most of that.
+10 Weapon - 200k
+5 Backup weapon (missile for melee guys, or vice versa) - 50k
+10 armor - 100k
+10 Shield - 100k
Stat booster/3 attributes - 144k
+5 Cloak/Res - 25k (cheap!)
+5 Ring of Prot - 50k
+5 Inherent to ONE stat - 125k
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800k.
As you can see, not a lot of wiggle room. 80k of minor items isn't going to break anything at 20th.
==Aelryinth
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So a Wand of Bestow Grace of the Champion is actually +75k to its cost? Or is the diamond not consumed?
As for 880k of items...I agree that's a lot of MINOR items. Unfortunately, the big 6 tend to eat up most of that.
+10 Weapon - 200k
+5 Backup weapon (missile for melee guys, or vice versa) - 50k
+10 armor - 100k
+10 Shield - 100k
Stat booster/3 attributes - 144k
+5 Cloak/Res - 25k (cheap!)
+5 Ring of Prot - 50k
+5 Inherent to ONE stat - 125k
-------------------------------
800k.As you can see, not a lot of wiggle room. 80k of minor items isn't going to break anything at 20th.
==Aelryinth
Wand of bestow grace - not wand of bestow grace of the champion. These are two different spells if you are not aware. 6,000 gp for 150 mins of Cha to saving throws.
Your cost list is true for folks who build that way. I have yet to have a 20th level character in Pathfinder that wasn't built for simple theorycraft, but I have never purchased (nor needed to purchase) a +10 weapon, +10 armor, +10 shield, or a triple +6 stat boost item. So I tend to spend a significant amount of gold elsewhere.
+5 tome is also 137,500 - not 125,000.