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I'm not sure where you're getting this "Hyperoptimized one trick pony" thing from. No one has said that or brought up such a character anyways.
Honestly curious why you're bringing it up when it's not really within the scope of this thread (outside your posts on the subject). It just seems sort of random to throw that into the conversation when it doesn't really have much relevance.
Strawman, that's why.
The rules. What's the source for your interprestation?Source?@DrDeth
Duplicating the spell is not casting the spell.
You cast Miracle, X spell happens as though you had cast it.
Show me the rule that states what it means to duplicate a spell.
Martials in 3.5? Lets see:
Alex Stratos - Rogue 5/Combat Trapsmith 3 (This is the character that I had to reroll to a Druid.)
Sarion Eschel - Crusader 10/Warblade 5 (Taking advantage of the "other classes are 1/2 Initiator level", so the class levels are alternated. Thicket of Blades using, ally boosting, never dying, party face).
Noraus Darkdelve - Scout 3/Rogue 16/Shadowdancer 1 (King of Stealth, tons of Sneak Attack and Skirmish dice thanks to Swift Ambusher, was able to trigger Skirmish and full attack with a barrage of arrows. Face/Knowledges/Spot and Listen along with stealth made him a scary skill master.
If we add "Gishes", then I had several 16+ BAB / 9th level spell builds, including a Chrono Legionnaire Psion/Anarchic Initiate/Slayer and a Ruby Knight Vindicator Cleric/Church Inquisitor/Crusader/Ruby Knight Vindicator/Contemplative/Divine Oracle (So glad I have the sheet handy XD). I'm also rolling my Duskblades, Psychic Warriors and Factotums under this heading.
In my PF games, the closest thing to Martial that I have played thus far is my Vivisectionist Beastmorph Alchemist Isaiah, who is the leader of the group despite very Chaotic Neutral. (Which means loves to screw with people in this case.)
Casters in PF mostly. Conjurer Wizard, Lunar Oracle, and a Gravewalker Witch. Currently looking to play a Sadist Lifeleech Soulthief Vitalist as soon as one of the other GMs runs a campaign (presently I'm about to start an E6 Pathfinder, so this may be a bit.)
Great, I found that at the highest levels in 3.5 the martials, even a skill monkey was outmatched totally by the spellcasters. How did Noraus hold up when the spellcaster could cast Superior invis or Greater invis & Non-detection?
Of those spellcasters: Conjurer Wizard, Lunar Oracle, and a Gravewalker Witch. Are any of those the hyper optimized one trick pony spellcasters you show the builds of here? They don't seem to match??
In the games you DM, how many Martials are played? How about those...
Burning hands? Can't say I've ever brought up that one though I'm familiar with how to go about building one. Now Color Spray Oracles I've seen. But those are just Heaven Oracles that invest their traits into Magical Lineage and Wayang Spellhunter to get Persist on their Color Sprays out of a level 1 slot. And even then I wouldn't call them a one trick pony. They still had a decent number of skill points with being human and had a good selection of spells thanks to the Human Favored Class bonus. Once they hit 4th level slots, they always had the option of Quickened Persisted Color Sprays thanks to being spontaneous. The usual compliment of Summon Monster spells and stone shape along buffs like Shield of Faith and Magic Vestment made them quite versatile.
My Gravewalker Witch was an Elven Slumber Witch with a nice horde of Undead. Bonewhistle came in quite handy at early levels and got me a human skeleton pretty early on. Having Command Undead and Animate Dead on the same list was fantastic and Gravewalker's Possess Undead let me be in range to Hex enemies without actually risking anything. I got the summon line of feats and played Battlefield controller dropping Ear-Piercing Scream/Slumber at low levels and buffing with Heroism. Gloomblind Bolts is fantastic spell since I could hit enemies and Blind them or heal undead (or split them why not?). Honestly, between my Undead (which I made Bloody Skeletons) and Hexes I didn't really need to cast to many spells. Staff of the Master (Necromancy) let me drop my Summons as a swift or let me Hex an enemy with Misfortune and then get them with a Save or Die.
My Conjurer was a pretty straight Wizard with the Summon line + Acadamae Graduate. Mostly hung out Invisible and Flying after level 5 Well liked for providing Haste and flanking bonus (via Summons). Superior Summons is a hell of a drug. Once I got that at 7th, Summon Monster 4 to get Lantern Archons, because at-will Aid really helped out on the hit point front and with a touch attack that overcame DR they worked very well. And of course Aura of Menace with multiple Archons was a nice debuff.
My Lunar Oracle is a "I get CHA to Everything" powerhouse. Probably the strongest of the casters. This one was half-elf and made use of Paragon Surge and Improved Eldritch Heritage to have the perfect spell for the situation. Really could do just about everything. Didn't focus on any particular spell.
Now as to my 3.5 builds, Noraus had reusable magic items from Eberron, namely Eternal Wands and Schema's to handle his spellcasting and he could not be detected for the most part (a single feat Darkstalker allows you get around most ways of detecting you). Furthermore, he could take 10 on a number of skills (including Diplomacy) which made him a very good face for the party and he could also breeze through knowledges without any difficulty.
Why are you guys arguing with someone who doesn't know the rules. Ignore him and move on with the discussion.
Alternatively the mods can finally lock this derailed thread, please!
A floating clock is just part of the game. Effort matters more. No DM in their right mind would say "oh...no one has teleport? You can't get there today, you all lose, the world dies."I kind of do. In my game, characters with a 20-ft. speed actually get places in only 2/3 the time as people with a 30-ft. speed, which means they might miss some stuff. A timer means no 15-minute workdays sometimes (which you "casters aren't OP" people are always harping on about), and it also means that abilities like "swift tracker" actually have some purpose for existing other than pure flavor text.
Of course, in my game, there are houserules so that, if there's no wizard handy, the rogue or fighter can still influence results far away on a reasonably fast time scale. As a class feature, the fighter can get a super-fast hippogriff (or whatever) bonded mount that improves as he levels, for example. He might have military outposts on other continents. The rogue reaches the point where he has "friends of friends" all over the world he can call on for favors at a moment's notice.
I think I covered it in my response to Anzyr, but I was speaking more to the specificity of teleport, rather than the more general 'ability to cross vast distances quickly.' I employ travel times, and swift tracker wouldn't be flavor text. It seems like you would agree with me...having a flying mount, or friends to contact across the world are all alternate means of accomplishing functionally the same thing. So you don't tell the players that because they lack the ability to personally cast a single specific spell, the campaign is over.
And I don't believe in the 15 minute workday. Relatively recently, I had my players run roughly twenty-thirty encounters without resting that day. Midway through, they lost their gear and were imprisoned, requiring them to fight through the remainder of the encounters without it, gaining it back from NPCs who were employing it against them.
I'm still working on that talented fighter though. I managed to come up with a 'fief' talent that didn't grate on me.
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Why are you guys arguing with someone who doesn't know the rules. Ignore him and move on with the discussion.
Alternatively the mods can finally lock this derailed thread, please!
Interesting tactic. Find you're losing a debate, so resort to personal insults, hoping this will lead to thread locking. Which it often does, and in fact did so last time.
Altho the mods are very busy here, they are pretty darn smart and if they can get enough time to figure out your little game, it doesn't bode well for you.
It's also pretty intellectually dishonest as well as rude.
Burning hands? Can't say I've ever brought up that one though I'm familiar with how to go about building one. Now Color Spray Oracles I've seen. But those are just Heaven Oracles that invest their traits into Magical Lineage and Wayang Spellhunter to get Persist on their Color Sprays out of a level 1 slot. And even then I wouldn't call them a one trick pony. They still had a decent number of skill points with being human and had a good selection of spells thanks to the Human Favored Class bonus. Once they hit 4th level slots, they always had the option of Quickened Persisted Color Sprays thanks to being spontaneous. The usual compliment of Summon Monster spells and stone shape along buffs like Shield of Faith and Magic Vestment made them quite versatile.
My Gravewalker Witch was an Elven Slumber Witch with a nice horde of Undead. Bonewhistle came in quite handy at early levels and got me a human skeleton pretty early on. Having Command Undead and Animate Dead on the same list was fantastic and Gravewalker's Possess Undead let me be in range to Hex enemies without actually risking anything. I got the summon line of feats and played Battlefield controller dropping Ear-Piercing Scream/Slumber at low levels and buffing with Heroism. Gloomblind Bolts is fantastic spell since I could hit enemies and Blind them or heal undead (or split them why not?). Honestly, between my Undead (which I made Bloody Skeletons) and Hexes I didn't really need to cast to many spells. Staff of the Master (Necromancy) let me drop my Summons as a swift or let me Hex an enemy with Misfortune and then get them with a Save or Die.
My Conjurer was a pretty straight Wizard with the Summon line + Acadamae Graduate. Mostly hung out Invisible and Flying after level 5 Well liked for providing Haste and flanking bonus (via Summons). Superior Summons is a hell of a drug. Once I got that at 7th, Summon Monster 4 to get Lantern Archons, because at-will Aid really helped out on the hit point front and with a touch attack that overcame DR they worked very well. And of course Aura of Menace with multiple Archons was a nice debuff.
My Lunar Oracle is a "I get CHA to Everything" powerhouse. Probably the strongest of the casters. This one was half-elf and made use of Paragon Surge and Improved Eldritch Heritage to have the perfect spell for the situation. Really could do just about everything. Didn't focus on any particular spell.
Now as to my 3.5 builds, Noraus had reusable magic items from Eberron, namely Eternal Wands and Schema's to handle his spellcasting and he could not be detected for the most part (a single feat Darkstalker allows you get around most ways of detecting you). Furthermore, he could take 10 on a number of skills (including Diplomacy) which made him a very good face for the party and he could also breeze through knowledges without any difficulty.
Thank you for your reply. Yeah, I am pretty sure you posted a burning hands build a couple times, but I could be misremembering.
Interesting builds, and none are quite what I'd call "hyperoptimized" (but yes, many are optimized, moreso than I might do)or "one trick ponies'.
And I don't believe in the 15 minute workday. Relatively recently, I had my players run roughly twenty-thirty encounters without resting that day. Midway through, they lost their gear and were imprisoned, requiring them to fight through the remainder of the encounters without it, gaining it back from NPCs who were employing it...
Yeah, the old 3round day. One guy had posted here his tactic was a Rod of Quicken and hope the day didn't go for more than three rounds!
My DM won;t have it, nor will I. Of course, sometimes on any given day there is only one encounter or even none, but counting on going Nova then resting will get you dead.
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It seems like you would agree with me...having a flying mount, or friends to contact across the world are all alternate means of accomplishing functionally the same thing.
Our difference, I think, is that I believe they should be guaranteed in the form of class features, not locked behind "DM largesse" because you bought him a case of Ommegang.
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Don't worry fellow forum troll! I see that you too are rusing it up for lolz! Thank you for your assistance in calling a mod for a thread lock!Why are you guys arguing with someone who doesn't know the rules. Ignore him and move on with the discussion.
Alternatively the mods can finally lock this derailed thread, please!
Interesting tactic. Find you're losing a debate, so resort to personal insults, hoping this will lead to thread locking. Which it often does, and in fact did so last time.
Altho the mods are very busy here, they are pretty darn smart and if they can get enough time to figure out your little game, it doesn't bode well for you.
It's also pretty intellectually dishonest as well as rude.
DrDeth is many things. A troll is not one of them.
Your naming calling is getting old...
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He's just trying to make these boards like Enworld and Wizards. Over at those two, it's a well known tactic to flame a thread enough until it gets locked. They do this to threads in which they disagree with instead of coming up with a legitimate argument.
I'm sure the mods around here won't fall for that tactic.
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Never been to either of those boards and I'm only tangentially related to the, very off topic I might add, arguments happening in these threads.
It's just a few people arguing the same exact thing over and over. I'd rather see the thread locked than another page of you guys arguing Miracle and Geas, I don't care who wins or loses or if it's never even resolved.
Never been to either of those boards and I'm only tangentially related to the, very off topic I might add, arguments happening in these threads.
It's just a few people arguing the same exact thing over and over. I'd rather see the thread locked than another page of you guys arguing Miracle and Geas, I don't care who wins or loses or if it's never even resolved.
No one is forcing you to read it...
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S; see text
EFFECTRange see text
Target, Effect, or Area see text
Duration see text
Saving Throw see text; Spell Resistance yes
Getting back to the Miracle/Geas debate.
If Miracle's casting time was extended by casting a spell that had a longer casting time, it would say so.
There are Core Rulebook spells that denote otherwise when such is appropriate like Contingency. Miracle lacks that qualifier in both it's Casting section and description.
It is fairly common however to see people who view Casters as not OP to make interpretations that don't follow the text of spells which in turn makes Casters not as powerful as they truly are.
A game run by the book instead of on the DM's whim is a much different game.
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Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S; see text
EFFECTRange see text
Target, Effect, or Area see text
Duration see text
Saving Throw see text; Spell Resistance yes
Getting back to the Miracle/Geas debate.
If Miracle's casting time was extended by casting a spell that had a longer casting time, it would say so.
There are Core Rulebook spells that denote otherwise when such is appropriate like Contingency. Miracle lacks that qualifier in both it's Casting section and description.
It is fairly common however to see people who view Casters as not OP to make interpretations that don't follow the text of spells which in turn makes Casters not as powerful as they truly are.
A game run by the book instead of on the DM's whim is a much different game.
And you have yet to verify what you claim is "by the book".
All it says in the description is duplicate the spell. It says nothing about duplicate the spells effect. Duplicating the spell means that everything else comes with it. If the spell comes with a material component over 100gp then it must be paid as well.
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If the spell comes with a material component over 100gp then it must be paid as well.I actually think that's a point against you. Miracle specifically says that SR, saves (but not save DC) and material components of the original spell stay but says nothing about casting time.
Compound this with Miracle already having a stated casting time with no indication of variability and no mention of you casting the duplicated spell and I think you have a pretty compelling argument in favor of no change in cast time.
The fluff of the spell doesn't line up either: You call upon some greater power to lend its aid and intercede, whether through a number of pre-determined effects or through a "more powerful request" that has an additional GP cost.. or through an undefined alternate effect under DM fiat.
If it's your deity interceding and performing the action itself you wouldn't need to be casting the spell yourself.
Normally I don't like "fluff as rules" in arguments but it was brought up earlier in the thread on other occasions so I figure it can't be had both ways.
And because it mentions nothing about casting time, then it's a clear indication that it remains the same since you are duplicating a spell and not a spell effect.
Takes you a standard action to request a Geas using Miracle.
10 minutes later, Geas is cast.
You still can't cast Geas. OK you spent the standard action to request Geas, but you still can't cast it because it's not on your spell list.
Also, you are trying to stat that miracle is a two round spell.
NO. Not at all.
You know that wish has the same working? Are you trying to say that you request a wish to duplicate the spell and then cast it?
This argument doesn't make sense.
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S; see text
EFFECTRange see text
Target, Effect, or Area see text
Duration see text
Saving Throw see text; Spell Resistance yes
Getting back to the Miracle/Geas debate.
If Miracle's casting time was extended by casting a spell that had a longer casting time, it would say so.
There are Core Rulebook spells that denote otherwise when such is appropriate like Contingency. Miracle lacks that qualifier in both it's Casting section and description.
It is fairly common however to see people who view Casters as not OP to make interpretations that don't follow the text of spells which in turn makes Casters not as powerful as they truly are.
A game run by the book instead of on the DM's whim is a much different game.
Some of us do know the rules and don't think casters are OP.
This debate though is boggling my mind. Miracle and wish don't grant SLAs, they can duplicate spells. Idk what the problem is...
I agree, using Miracle to cast Geas is ambiguous. I am pretty sure I am right as far as RAI goes, but I have doubts are to RAW. I can see it either way.
But in any case, claiming that "casters are overpowered" due to corner cases, odd and strained interpretations, and dubious readings of RAW doesn't really help the argument at all. Bring up the extremely dubious "sno-cone wish machine" doesn't prove that casters are overpowered, it just proves that Paizo needs to clean up some legacy wordings from 3.5- something I have been saying for a while now and even started a Rules Questions thread to try and get a FAQ.
Does the DM need to put some sort of limit on what's available? Sure- the same as for 3.5, and even AD&D.
Don't get me wrong- once casters can cast 9th level spells, balance does largely fly out the window. So, yes, a disparity exists, but it's rarely significant in IRL table-top gaming.
And you have yet to verify what you claim is "by the book".All it says in the description is duplicate the spell. It says nothing about duplicate the spells effect. Duplicating the spell means that everything else comes with it. If the spell comes with a material component over 100gp then it must be paid as well.
Miracle states what it changes. It does not say to extend the casting time unlike Contingency. That omission is very important.
I have a precedent, you do not.
The burden of proof is on you. Until you show proof, your argument has no grounds except "I don't want to be wrong." Which is extremely petty since you lose nothing.
I will reiterate, but considering your history of failing to read posts but replying to them regardless it is likely to go wasted.
Miracle includes the following phrase "A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal, but the save DCs are as for a 9th-level spell. When a miracle spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 100 gp, you must provide that component." It however lacks any phrase that suggests an increased Casting Time. Spells do and don't do only what they are described as doing or not doing. There is no DM Fiat unless theres a line like "At the GM’s discretion."
Though I'm sure that someone will mention something about Rule 0 or whatever like that proves anything since Rule 0 is essentially "I can houserule if I want if I don't like something!"
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And you have yet to verify what you claim is "by the book".All it says in the description is duplicate the spell. It says nothing about duplicate the spells effect. Duplicating the spell means that everything else comes with it. If the spell comes with a material component over 100gp then it must be paid as well.
Miracle states what it changes. It does not say to extend the casting time unlike Contingency. That omission is very important.
I have a precedent, you do not.
The burden of proof is on you. Until you show proof, your argument has no grounds except "I don't want to be wrong." Which is extremely petty since you lose nothing.
I will reiterate, but considering your history of failing to read posts but replying to them regardless it is likely to go wasted.
Miracle includes the following phrase "A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal, but the save DCs are as for a 9th-level spell. When a miracle spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 100 gp, you must provide that component." It however lacks any phrase that suggests an increased Casting Time. Spells do and don't do only what they are described as doing or not doing. There is no DM Fiat unless theres a line like "At the GM’s discretion."
Though I'm sure that someone will mention something about Rule 0 or whatever like that proves anything since Rule 0 is essentially "I can houserule if I want if I don't like something!"
Look, you can think you are right all you want, and you can be right at "your" table all you want, but this isn't the first time this conversation has come up. I have looked at other threads and it has the same thing. The devs have not popped in to clarify it so it can go either way.
The burden is on you to prove me wrong and the burden is on me to prove you wrong. Seeing as it "could" go either way, the whole thing becomes invalid and reserved for individual tables.
The spell list a casting time.
That's the casting time.
The spell doesn't grant SLAs
/debate
The spell list a casting time.
That's the casting time.
The spell doesn't grant SLAs
/debate
The spell also says you don't cast it, you actually request it.
Also, it specifically says it duplicates the spell, not the spell effect and last time I checked, the casting time was a part of the spell.
Source?
Is this really something important to talk about? What does this have to do with whether people have martials at their table. Make another thread maybe, but I don't see what this has to do with the OP's question.
Miracle includes the following phrase "A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal, but the save DCs are as for a 9th-level spell. When a miracle spell duplicates a spell with a material component that costs more than 100 gp, you must provide that component." It however lacks any phrase that suggests an increased Casting Time. Spells do and don't do only what they are described as doing or not doing. There is no DM Fiat unless theres a line like "At the GM’s discretion.""
Indeed, it does include the line "A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal"- but why? According to you that would be unnecessary. I think that the fact they felt they needed to say what was unchanged indicates strongly that the writers were indicating that the duration remained the same. In other words, the spell specifically calls out what is unchanged and what is changed- but they forgot duration. If they only spelled out what was changed- yes, you'd be correct. But they also spent time stating what was UNchanged.
But in fact the Miracle spell does include no less that two lines like "At the DM's discretion":
" You don't so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede.
....
In any event, a request that is out of line with the deity's (or alignment's) nature is refused."
But in any case, claiming that "casters are overpowered" due to corner cases, odd and strained interpretations, and dubious readings of RAW doesn't really help the argument at all. Bring up the extremely dubious "sno-cone wish machine" doesn't prove that casters are overpowered, it just proves that Paizo needs to clean up some legacy wordings from 3.5- something I have been saying for a while now and even started a Rules Questions thread to try and get a FAQ.
Oh no I definitely agree. Corner Cases and dubious readings help no one.
Noticing how Divine Favor is better than Weapon Training at all levels but the highest is a point to make though.
Bestow Grace and Bestow Grace of the Champion is a thing.
Druids making a mockery of what is acceptable for casters to be able to accomplish in melee is something to look at, especially when they're still 9th level Casters.
How Simulacrum of even just yourself is world changing.
How some spells completely trivialize skill checks. Besides the usual Spider Climb/Flight/Invisibility, I'll add the swift action spell Grace to the list for completely avoiding Attacks of Opportunity which is normally accomplished through Acrobatics. I don't remember a day where my Cleric didn't prepare Grace as soon as he had it. Inquisitors get Litany of Sloth which is essentially Grace on speed for the whole party, I mean how many times do you need to reposition entirely in 1 fight?
The spell list a casting time.
That's the casting time.
The spell doesn't grant SLAs
/debate
The spell also says you don't cast it, you actually request it.
Also, it specifically says it duplicates the spell, not the spell effect and last time I checked, the casting time was a part of the spell.
Source?
The PRD:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/miracle.html#_miracleYou don't so much cast a miracle as request one. You state what you would like to have happen and request that your deity (or the power you pray to for spells) intercede.
A miracle can do any of the following things.
Duplicate any cleric spell of 8th level or lower.
Duplicate any other spell of 7th level or lower.
Undo the harmful effects of certain spells, such as feeblemind or insanity.
Have any effect whose power level is in line with the above effects.
Alternatively, a cleric can make a very powerful request. Casting such a miracle costs the cleric 25,000 gp in powdered diamond because of the powerful divine energies involved. Examples of especially powerful miracles of this sort could include the following:
Swinging the tide of a battle in your favor by raising fallen allies to continue fighting.
Moving you and your allies, with all your and their gear, from one plane to a specific locale through planar barriers with no chance of error.
Protecting a city from an earthquake, volcanic eruption, flood, or other major natural disaster.
In any event, a request that is out of line with the deity's (or alignment's) nature is refused.
What does it have with the discussion you ask? Anztr's claim that such a spell combo would stop any character 100% of the time with one swift action, no save, no nothing.
Indeed, it does include the line "A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal"- but why?
Because the spell in it's effects section says "See Text" beside Saving Throws.
What does it have with the discussion you ask? Anztr's claim that such a spell combo would stop any character 100% of the time with one swift action, no save, no nothing.
What does this have to do with whether people have martials at their table
Different question. The point was to throw things back on the rails.
I do really agree that Paizo should go back and clean up a lot of the wording left over from 3.5. They should also probably clean up a lot of the abilities themselves that have legacy requirements or mechanics that don't make a huge amount of sense. Too many instances of feats/spells/abilities that are only really justifiable as "Well it was like that in 3.5", IMO of course.
Well, even their newer stuff a lot of times takes on the flaws of the old things. That's usually a sign that there aren't any changes in the works or on the drawing boards. Monstrous mount is a good example of adding in prereqs and splitting up feats to make a chain, and some abilities are still pretty poor in the newer books such as acrobatic stunt.
There definitely isn't any change with the full attack and vancian casting only idealism, unless there's something hidden in the new ACG coming out, because even the new classes use the old systems.
But in any case, claiming that "casters are overpowered" due to corner cases, odd and strained interpretations, and dubious readings of RAW doesn't really help the argument at all. Bring up the extremely dubious "sno-cone wish machine" doesn't prove that casters are overpowered, it just proves that Paizo needs to clean up some legacy wordings from 3.5- something I have been saying for a while now and even started a Rules Questions thread to try and get a FAQ.
Oh no I definitely agree. Corner Cases and dubious readings help no one.
Noticing how Divine Favor is better than Weapon Training at all levels but the highest is a point to make though.
Bestow Grace and Bestow Grace of the Champion is a thing.
Druids making a mockery of what is acceptable for casters to be able to accomplish in melee is something to look at, especially when they're still 9th level Casters.
How Simulacrum of even just yourself is world changing.
How some spells completely trivialize skill checks. Besides the usual Spider Climb/Flight/Invisibility, I'll add the swift action spell Grace to the list for completely avoiding Attacks of Opportunity which is normally accomplished through Acrobatics. I don't remember a day where my Cleric didn't prepare Grace as soon as he had it. Inquisitors get Litany of Sloth which is essentially Grace on speed for the whole party, I mean how many times do you need to reposition entirely in 1 fight?
Don't mind my Huge, narrow framed, smiting,Greater Magic fanged, pouncing, strong Jawed, barkskninned (to save WBL),bloody clawed, stoneskinned and, Celestial/Fiendish Allosaurus making a mockery of almost every martial....
Of course most of the time he's just huge, Narrow framed, pouncing, barkskinned, and stoneskinned, and celestial/Fiendish. Not as impressive for sure, but still a very scary combatant.
In areas where it's too crowded I can instead be a Large, Narrow framed..... Dire Tiger!
And have my 9 levels of casting and a domain or animal companion to boot!
Because the spell in it's effects section says "See Text" beside Saving Throws.
Indeed, it does include the line "A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal"- but why?
But according to you it doesn't need to.
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Well, even their newer stuff a lot of times takes on the flaws of the old things. That's usually a sign that there aren't any changes in the works or on the drawing boards. Monstrous mount is a good example of adding in prereqs and splitting up feats to make a chain, and some abilities are still pretty poor in the newer books such as acrobatic stunt.Yeah. I understand that part of the goal with Pathfinder was to recreate a 3.5ish game but the whole "nothing that deviates from the core mentality" rule they seem to have kinda bums me out.
Its actually one of the large complaints outside of the community here is that pathfinder isn't actively innovative and that its unhealthy. Little biased though, since the people here are the ones that chose to stick with it for whatever reason and people who left probably wanted other things. YMMV. One of the things I enjoyed about 3.5 was getting books with totally new systems like psionics, binding, and martial adepts. Those sourcebooks are what kept martials at the table in 3.5 for some of my friends! If only for things like tactical feats changing the core.
But according to you it doesn't need to.Because the spell in it's effects section says "See Text" beside Saving Throws.
Indeed, it does include the line "A duplicated spell allows saving throws and spell resistance as normal"- but why?
It does actually.
Some spells don't allow saving throws or Spell Resistance Thus you need a qualifying phrase that says duplicated spells have saving throws as normal so that they normally still don't get Saving Throws or Spell Resistance.
For the purposes of this thread, I'd like people to just assume (or accept for the sake of the argument) that casters are "better" than martials rather than debating that point.
I wondered how that translates at the table for those groups who feel this way? Do you find that nobody plays rogues or fighters?
I ask because in the posts where people list their parties, there often seem to be martial classes around. I wondered whether people are houseruling those classes, whether the players of casters just "play nice" and dont tread on the toes of the martial players or what other solutions people have found.
I doubt we have a rogue in the party ever again. Even out GM have given up on the rogue. We had a rogue/shadow dancer in our Curse of the Crimson throne. It wasn’t until he got skill focus stealth, ring of Ring of Chameleon Power and got his first level shadow dancer that he actually became good at something. It was handy to have a scout, but any dex based character could have done that job.
We also had a fighter in that campaign. Even though the fighter wasn’t “optimized” he rocked. I pretty sure we see more fighters in our group again. In our current campaign we have a Druid (Caster druid with Tiger), alchemist, Samurai and Oracle. The Samurai is Awesome.I play the Druid and it is not as good as I had expect. If he always could have the right spell prepared, sure then the druid would be great, but you can’t always have the right spells prepared. In the end I prepare some utility spells, but mostly rely on Ice Spear and flame strike and buffing my pet. One or two SNA, wall of thorns and airwalk. BTW, all these DPR threads are not accurate. The pet have serious problems every time we run into tougher enemies.
Conclusion. Full BAB classes are underrated and full prepared casters, at least druids, are over rated. ....and rogue are not good.
Don't get me wrong- once casters can cast 4th level spells, balance does largely fly out the window.
I really wish you said 3rd so I could make a joke about it literally flying out the window. I'd say they can do plenty before that.
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I doubt we have a rogue in the party ever again. Even out GM have given up on the rogue. We had a rogue/shadow dancer in our Curse of the Crimson throne. It wasn’t until he got skill focus stealth, ring of Ring of Chameleon Power and got his first level shadow dancer that he actually became good at something. It was handy to have a scout, but any dex based character could have done that job.
We also had a fighter in that campaign. Even though the fighter wasn’t “optimized” he rocked. I pretty sure we see more fighters in our group again. In our current campaign we have a Druid (Caster druid with Tiger), alchemist, Samurai and Oracle. The Samurai is Awesome.
I play the Druid and it is not as good as I had expect. If he always could have the right spell prepared, sure then the druid would be great, but you can’t always have the right spells prepared. In the end I prepare some utility spells, but mostly rely on Ice Spear and flame strike and buffing my pet. One or two SNA, wall of thorns and airwalk. BTW, all these DPR threads are not accurate. The pet have serious problems every time we run into tougher enemies.Conclusion. Full BAB classes are underrated and full prepared casters, at least druids, are over rated. ....and rogue are not good.
Ah. The biggest thing to learn with Druids is that you really shouldn't define yourself as a Caster Druid unless you're very prepared for that role. Going all in on Wildshape works since you have strong buffs to back it up and utility spells, essentially a martial but with 9th level spells.
As a Full Caster the Druid leaves a bit to be desired as it's spells are rather niche. The Blasting spells aren't fantastic(Though Ice Spear is quite solid since it's Battlefield Control as well). Summoning Druids work extremely well since it's essentially a swiss army knife to most issues.
Just my 2cp, sorry you had a bad experience with the Druid.