Well ideally the fact that people with skill ranks are skilled at all times would make it better than a spell. In reality the limited time in an adventuring day make that a non-issue and spellcasters are better. Long adventuring days (achieved by buffing group hit points and healing) combined with no magic items that give more spells might make rogues seem better in comparison.
In a party however having a rouge means that the caster does not need to prepare those spells and is therefore more effective.
Also for really high DC checks like sneaking past a dragon ranks are helpful.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
To my mind, no magic should give you +20 or +infinity to a skill.
As a quick fix, I limit the stealth bonus from inviso to +1/CL (max +5). Better yet, though, the spell effects would be dependent on the recipient's skill ranks or something -- so that only people with lots of Stealth ranks would actually be invisible, and others might only be dim.
|
Invis has many limits but your argument is two pointed. Against monsters the pc always have an advantage. In comparison to other player classes casters are a benefit and have other liabilities.
The last pfs game I played in had 6/6 casters. Two were a hair breadth from coffins due to low hitpoints. It would have gone much easier with 2 melees.
|
Uh...invisibility doesn't replace Stealth. Trust me. When you have a character with no ranks in Stealth by even mid-levels (something like level 7 or so) you're odds of getting noticed are actually quite quite good even with Invisibility. If, on the other hand, you have Invisibility and maxed Stealth you pretty much don't get noticed.
Indeed, since it's cumulative with Stealth it actually makes Stealth more useful, since the two in combination (unlike Stealth or Invisibility alone) are actually pretty reliable.
Additionally, almost all such skill enhancing spells are of limited duration, which makes their use likewise limited in a variety of ways.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's important to not only notice that invisibility may increase your stealth check, but that you can ignore that modifier in situations where other senses may be particularly important. If the observer doesn't actually have direct line of sight on the invisible sneaker, just roll against his normal check to hear him - he can't see him anyway.
I think it's fine for invisibility to include a steep bonus for stealth. We're extremely visual creatures. Information enters the brain and is processed 30x faster via sight than via hearing so situations in which the eyes should be engaged but are fooled by the spell should be extremely confounding. But situations in which that is not the case (out of sight anyway, creatures that are arguably more attuned to sound or vibration or even scent), shouldn't include that modifier.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
So page 563 of the CRB deserves a read. Invisible creatures take special penalties for being noisy.
So no the spell doesn't make you quieter once ALL of the bonuses and penalties are taken into account.
Uh...invisibility doesn't replace Stealth. Trust me. When you have a character with no ranks in Stealth by even mid-levels (something like level 7 or so) you're odds of getting noticed are actually quite quite good even with Invisibility. If, on the other hand, you have Invisibility and maxed Stealth you pretty much don't get noticed.
Indeed, since it's cumulative with Stealth it actually makes Stealth more useful, since the two in combination (unlike Stealth or Invisibility alone) are actually pretty reliable.
Additionally, almost all such skill enhancing spells are of limited duration, which makes their use likewise limited in a variety of ways.
Perception DC to become aware of an invisible character's mere presence within 30 feet of you is 20, if the character is using stealth it becomes 20 + Stealth Check+20, assuming the inviso-wizard has a dex of 10 and no ranks in stealth and takes ten on his check, that's a DC 50 perception check.
Even if your 7th level character hits 50 on his perception, he must beat the result by another 20 to figure out which square the invisible enemy is in. So, uh, good luck finding many 7th level characters hitting 70 on their perception checks.
So page 563 of the CRB deserves a read. Invisible creatures take special penalties for being noisy.
So no the spell doesn't make you quieter once ALL of the bonuses and penalties are taken into account.
The perception DC to become aware of an invisible character who is standing still and speaking is 20 (Base DC 20 + 20 for standing still - 20 for speaking). An invisible character can literally stand next to you saying, "I'm here! I'm here!" in a loud clear voice and there's a decent chance that you will not be aware of them by the rules.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think it would have been better if Move Silent and Hide had remained two separate skills in PF.
I think it would have been best if it was one skill, but with two sub-skills. IE, you put one rank into Stealth, and it affects both; but some modifiers only affect either Stealth (Concealment) or Stealth (Silence). A successful use of Stealth requires you to beat the potential observer's Perception for both sub-skills (single roll, but first apply Concealment bonus and compare, then apply the Silence bonus and compare).
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The perception DC to become aware of an invisible character who is standing still and speaking is 20 (Base DC 20 + 20 for standing still - 20 for speaking). An invisible character can literally stand next to you saying, "I'm here! I'm here!" in a loud clear voice and there's a decent chance that you will not be aware of them by the rules.So page 563 of the CRB deserves a read. Invisible creatures take special penalties for being noisy.
So no the spell doesn't make you quieter once ALL of the bonuses and penalties are taken into account.
Er, if you are doing that, you're obviously no longer using Stealth. Thus, you WILL be heard, no matter what your Stealth bonus is.
|
|
Perception DC to become aware of an invisible character's mere presence within 30 feet of you is 20, if the character is using stealth it becomes 20 + Stealth Check+20, assuming the inviso-wizard has a dex of 10 and no ranks in stealth and takes ten on his check, that's a DC 50 perception check.
Even if your 7th level character hits 50 on his perception, he must beat the result by another 20 to figure out which square the invisible enemy is in. So, uh, good luck finding many 7th level characters hitting 70 on their perception checks.
That's pretty clearly not the intent. Skill Checks universally replace static DCs, rather than adding to them. So...by all the rules I've ever seen used, that's be DC 30, not 50.
The perception DC to become aware of an invisible character who is standing still and speaking is 20 (Base DC 20 + 20 for standing still - 20 for speaking). An invisible character can literally stand next to you saying, "I'm here! I'm here!" in a loud clear voice and there's a decent chance that you will not be aware of them by the rules.So page 563 of the CRB deserves a read. Invisible creatures take special penalties for being noisy.
So no the spell doesn't make you quieter once ALL of the bonuses and penalties are taken into account.
The sound you made has a DC of 0 to listen to.
The NPC inferring the existence of a source for the sound is RP dependent.
That's pretty clearly not the intent. Skill Checks universally replace static DCs, rather than adding to them. So...by all the rules I've ever seen used, that's be DC 30, not 50.Perception DC to become aware of an invisible character's mere presence within 30 feet of you is 20, if the character is using stealth it becomes 20 + Stealth Check+20, assuming the inviso-wizard has a dex of 10 and no ranks in stealth and takes ten on his check, that's a DC 50 perception check.
Even if your 7th level character hits 50 on his perception, he must beat the result by another 20 to figure out which square the invisible enemy is in. So, uh, good luck finding many 7th level characters hitting 70 on their perception checks.
Also can't take 10 on stealth.
It's important to not only notice that invisibility may increase your stealth check, but that you can ignore that modifier in situations where other senses may be particularly important. If the observer doesn't actually have direct line of sight on the invisible sneaker, just roll against his normal check to hear him - he can't see him anyway.
This leads to situations where an invisible guy walking behind a curtain is much, much easier to notice than an invisible guy walking right next to you.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Also can't take 10 on stealth.That's pretty clearly not the intent. Skill Checks universally replace static DCs, rather than adding to them. So...by all the rules I've ever seen used, that's be DC 30, not 50.Perception DC to become aware of an invisible character's mere presence within 30 feet of you is 20, if the character is using stealth it becomes 20 + Stealth Check+20, assuming the inviso-wizard has a dex of 10 and no ranks in stealth and takes ten on his check, that's a DC 50 perception check.
Even if your 7th level character hits 50 on his perception, he must beat the result by another 20 to figure out which square the invisible enemy is in. So, uh, good luck finding many 7th level characters hitting 70 on their perception checks.
Why not?
Ever?Or just go to anyone of a dozen Take 10 discussions. It's certainly not as simple as "You can't Take 10 on Stealth". If so it would be in the skill description.
You never use it in a situation that qualifies for taking 10.
It's like how you can't take 10 on the disable device check to disarm traps.
Er, if you are doing that, you're obviously no longer using Stealth. Thus, you WILL be heard, no matter what your Stealth bonus is.The perception DC to become aware of an invisible character who is standing still and speaking is 20 (Base DC 20 + 20 for standing still - 20 for speaking). An invisible character can literally stand next to you saying, "I'm here! I'm here!" in a loud clear voice and there's a decent chance that you will not be aware of them by the rules.So page 563 of the CRB deserves a read. Invisible creatures take special penalties for being noisy.
So no the spell doesn't make you quieter once ALL of the bonuses and penalties are taken into account.
Stealth has nothing to do with it. The DC to become aware of an invisible character is 20 +20 if the character is standing still, you have to beat the DC by another 20 to pinpoint their square.
| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
That's pretty clearly not the intent. Skill Checks universally replace static DCs, rather than adding to them. So...by all the rules I've ever seen used, that's be DC 30, not 50.Perception DC to become aware of an invisible character's mere presence within 30 feet of you is 20, if the character is using stealth it becomes 20 + Stealth Check+20, assuming the inviso-wizard has a dex of 10 and no ranks in stealth and takes ten on his check, that's a DC 50 perception check.
Even if your 7th level character hits 50 on his perception, he must beat the result by another 20 to figure out which square the invisible enemy is in. So, uh, good luck finding many 7th level characters hitting 70 on their perception checks.
I would like that to be the case and argued strongly that it was the intent, but the chart of page 563 of the CRB indicates otherwise. Stealth Check + 20 is clearly listed as a modifier to the original DC 20 perception DC not as a replacement for the original DC.
The issue was FAQ'd in a rather IMO poorly representative of the argument way, a "no reply required" response was given and SKR came in to the thread and said they were abusing the FAQ system (because of the original wording) and didn't provide any answer on insight when someone tried to clarify the question for him. Other attempts to get a clearer question for the FAQ team were never answered by the developers that I am aware of.
The perception DC to become aware of an invisible character who is standing still and speaking is 20 (Base DC 20 + 20 for standing still - 20 for speaking). An invisible character can literally stand next to you saying, "I'm here! I'm here!" in a loud clear voice and there's a decent chance that you will not be aware of them by the rules.So page 563 of the CRB deserves a read. Invisible creatures take special penalties for being noisy.
So no the spell doesn't make you quieter once ALL of the bonuses and penalties are taken into account.
The sound you made has a DC of 0 to listen to.
The NPC inferring the existence of a source for the sound is RP dependent.
Under the Perception Skill the DC is listed as 0 with a modifier of +20 if the creature is invisible.
By the rules your wizard friend can cast invisibility on herself while standing right next to you, and then try to speak to you and you will either not hear her or not be able to understand what she is saying unless you get a result of 20 or higher on your perception check.
This is the sort of oddity that happens when you roll separate skills together and then largely just copy/paste the stuff from Spot and Hide over in to the new skill while paying little attention to the Listen/Move Silently side of things.
Personally, in my games I use the rules for blinded condition rather than the ones listed under invisibility, as they tend to make a lot more sense when it comes to the combined skills.
The perception DC to become aware of an invisible character who is standing still and speaking is 20 (Base DC 20 + 20 for standing still - 20 for speaking). An invisible character can literally stand next to you saying, "I'm here! I'm here!" in a loud clear voice and there's a decent chance that you will not be aware of them by the rules.So page 563 of the CRB deserves a read. Invisible creatures take special penalties for being noisy.
So no the spell doesn't make you quieter once ALL of the bonuses and penalties are taken into account.
The sound you made has a DC of 0 to listen to.
The NPC inferring the existence of a source for the sound is RP dependent.
Under the Perception Skill the DC is listed as 0 with a modifier of +20 if the creature is invisible.
By the rules your wizard friend can cast invisibility on herself while standing right next to you, and then try to speak to you and you will either not hear her or not be able to understand what she is saying unless you get a result of 20 or higher on your perception check.
This is the sort of oddity that happens when you roll separate skills together and then largely just copy/paste the stuff from Spot and Hide over in to the new skill while paying little attention to the Listen/Move Silently side of things.
Personally, in my games I use the rules for blinded condition rather than the ones listed under invisibility, as they tend to make a lot more sense when it comes to the combined skills.
If you want to be pedantic, you have to move to speak, so you don't gain the +20 bonus.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
People seem to forget that when comparing skills to spells, that in full games, players are not always fighting and then not using resources. If the caster has 20 spells per day and you get into 4 combats and cast three spells per fight, you're down 12. You have eight remaining spells and use one to cover sneaking past some situation, another two or three on utility buffs (like water breathing) and you still had to cast your core 'always up' spells like mage armor and overland flight. That's five spells leaving you with three remaining for the day.
Maybe you have a couple of more but what happens in town when you also want to sneak past some guards? What about getting into a fortified location after the fact? Then you may need to travel (probably through magic) when it is all over so you still need teleport. Never mind that you'll have to sneak the item you do get back into your quest givers chambers.
You don't have enough spells to cover all of these things, all the time. Skills have a place. It is just that when magic is used, it is easier because it requires little investment to work well beyond knowledge of the spell/preparation and casting. Skills take time to develop and are more variable in outcome.
You absolutely can take 10 on stealth checks. SKR already qualified this:
"Let your players Take 10 unless they're in combat or they're distracted by something other than the task at hand" (emphasis mine)
It's also totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
And the DC check for a stealthing, invisible wizard with no ranks is extremely high: actually a lot higher than you calculated, ninja, due to the extra bonus the spell gives. If he isn't moving, the perception DC is 20 base + 20 (not moving) + 20+10+40 (stealth base, plus the spell's bonus to stealth for not moving) = DC 110. Simply not achievable.
As an aside, it is worth pointing out that RAW being out-of-sight behind a door or wall makes it more difficult to detect an invisible creature. You don't get bonuses because the invisible creature is out of sight: you actually get penalties in these cases.
You absolutely can take 10 on stealth checks. SKR already qualified this:
"Let your players Take 10 unless they're in combat or they're distracted by something other than the task at hand" (emphasis mine)
SKR is not a paizo dev. His words are not the rules.
You absolutely can take 10 on stealth checks. SKR already qualified this:
"Let your players Take 10 unless they're in combat or they're distracted by something other than the task at hand" (emphasis mine)
It's also totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
And the DC check for a stealthing, invisible wizard with no ranks is extremely high: actually a lot higher than you calculated, ninja, due to the extra bonus the spell gives. If he isn't moving, the perception DC is 20 base + 20 (not moving) + 20+10+40 (stealth base, plus the spell's bonus to stealth for not moving) = DC 110. Simply not achievable.
As an aside, it is worth pointing out that RAW being out-of-sight behind a door or wall makes it more difficult to detect an invisible creature. You don't get bonuses because the invisible creature is out of sight: you actually get penalties in these cases.
What?
0 Base DC to notice a creature.+40 for being invisible and not moving.
+stealth check.
So should be around 52 or so for a hypothetical wizard at level one casting from a scroll.
|
SKR is not a paizo dev. His words are not the rules.You absolutely can take 10 on stealth checks. SKR already qualified this:
"Let your players Take 10 unless they're in combat or they're distracted by something other than the task at hand" (emphasis mine)
They were when he said them.
Or, are all SKR comments void now?
Immediate Danger, is not the same as potential danger.
Sneaking past a chicken, guard, or dragon, is treated all the same.
Fire, combat, or even loud alarms can stop the ability to Take 10.
The threat of failure does not.
You absolutely can take 10 on stealth checks. SKR already qualified this:
"Let your players Take 10 unless they're in combat or they're distracted by something other than the task at hand" (emphasis mine)
It's also totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
And the DC check for a stealthing, invisible wizard with no ranks is extremely high: actually a lot higher than you calculated, ninja, due to the extra bonus the spell gives. If he isn't moving, the perception DC is 20 base + 20 (not moving) + 20+10+40 (stealth base, plus the spell's bonus to stealth for not moving) = DC 110. Simply not achievable.
As an aside, it is worth pointing out that RAW being out-of-sight behind a door or wall makes it more difficult to detect an invisible creature. You don't get bonuses because the invisible creature is out of sight: you actually get penalties in these cases.
What?
0 Base DC to notice a creature.
+40 for being invisible and not moving.
+stealth check.
So should be around 52 or so for a hypothetical wizard at level one casting from a scroll.
He's adding the modifier from everywhere that it is listed instead of just once.
SKR is not a paizo dev. His words are not the rules.You absolutely can take 10 on stealth checks. SKR already qualified this:
"Let your players Take 10 unless they're in combat or they're distracted by something other than the task at hand" (emphasis mine)
They were when he said them.
Or, are all SKR comments void now?
Immediate Danger, is not the same as potential danger.
Sneaking past a chicken, guard, or dragon, is treated all the same.
Fire, combat, or even loud alarms can stop the ability to Take 10.
The threat of failure does not.
Since there is no longer any indication on these forums that his post are from a Paizo dev and thus new people that come along will have no indication that they were except through word of mouth, I no longer consider his post as anything more than insightful opinion. His reasoning still has weight, but short quotes from him are not "word of God".
Before we dig farther do we agree that you can't take 10 when bluffing people and disarming traps?