Casters get spells.
Fighters do not.
If you want to give up your BAB, hit points, proficiencies, feats, and class abilities in exchange for spells you are free to do so.
You can even continue to call yourself a fighter, for roleplay purposes.
If you want to take control of the battlefield with a sword while being all but unhittable, and maintain that ability all day, you probably want to keep those options.
Cool! What class does that? Can't be the fighter, he doesn't actually get the most defenses from saves, concealment, mirror images, flight, or even AC. And swords actually aren't that great at controlling the battlefield like a dazing fireball or stoneshape.
Casters get spells.
Fighters do not.
If you want to give up your BAB, hit points, proficiencies, feats, and class abilities in exchange for spells you are free to do so.
You can even continue to call yourself a fighter, for roleplay purposes.
If you want to take control of the battlefield with a sword while being all but unhittable, and maintain that ability all day, you probably want to keep those options.
I've read up on enough of both subjects to see this argument is a bunch of crap.
I can be a Wizard and take a level 1 Fighter dip, get a little better BAB, a couple more HP, all the proficiencies I could possibly need, and an extra feat. Fighters don't have crap for class abilities, since Armor Training is silly when considering the optimal damage dealer, and when you aren't, you're just useless in combat. Armor Mastery is good, but that's not until 19th level, and is negated by a single Fighter-only feat (which should've been a Class Feature instead).
The worst I need to pay for it? A trait to maintain my CL (which I could then invest into something else, like leveling EK to maintain CL 20), a delay on progression (which isn't bad at all; look at Sorcerers, they still function well with delayed progression of spells), and a loss out on a 9th level spell slot at the end of the day (which is fixable with a fairly cheap but very useful magic item or 2).
The worst part is? I can still be Mr. Untouchable Awesomeman while still having access to the killer spells I need, have the same usefulness as a Fighter when I need it, and I didn't have to sacrifice much to do it!
Who needs BAB when you have Save or Die/Suck spells? Are they guaranteed? No, but neither is a full attack, especially against a target who has a lot of hit points. Those who don't have as much hit points? Invest in other defenses, or make sure they can't get hit through physical means. Which I can then throw Fireballs at and incinerate them to death.
Who needs hit points when I can't even be touched, and in the rare events that I do get touched, have contingencies and fail-safes to cover the openings? It's not hard as a Wizard to do that, even less so for a well-built EK.
Who needs proficiencies when spells can cover that too? And at best, I spend a 1 level dip to get them, which is actually a fairly smart investment later down the road.
Who needs feats when spells do all the work that feats do, except better? Need to avoid getting hit? Screw Dodge feat, put on some Mage Armor, Shield, a Stoneskin, and good luck with them hitting you, much less actually having a good chance to hurt you.
And class abilities? Spells cover that too. Everything a Fighter can do, a spell can do, with less effort, less time consumption, and a lesser chance to fail, too! Whodathunkit?
Even if we assume Artanthos is right and a Fighter with items is just as viable as anything else with items... How is that not still a failure with the class? If I'm playing a Fighter I want to show off my martial prowess and hit things with a big stick. I don't want to roleplay Harry Potter and solve all my problems by waving around a little stick.
Even if we assume Artanthos is right and a Fighter with items is just as viable as anything else with items... How is that not still a failure with the class? If I'm playing a Fighter I want to show off my martial prowess and hit things with a big stick. I don't want to roleplay Harry Potter and solve all my problems by waving around a little stick.
I have the answer in length and detail, hidden in a tiny box.
You're asking to be better than.And they should be. Being "balanced" with the fighter or rogue is a kiss of death.
Oh no no, not balanced with. We just don't want people who can fight better than the rogue or make the fighter look bad at fighting.
Well... crap.
It is a good time to ask for that high skilled vanilla fihter who can out DPR any barbarian, is not behind in HP and whose saving thorws are high enough,. Perhaps 20 PB, level 10, standard WBL, two traits.
It is a good time to ask for that high skilled vanilla fihter who can out DPR any barbarian, is not behind in HP and whose saving thorws are high enough,. Perhaps 20 PB, level 10, standard WBL, two traits.
Optimized barbar?
Not possible.
Although not even a ranger competes in those areas and the paladin would lose out too.
It is a good time to ask for that high skilled vanilla fihter who can out DPR any barbarian, is not behind in HP and whose saving thorws are high enough,. Perhaps 20 PB, level 10, standard WBL, two traits.I'd settle at this point for the stat array for that 5 skill Fighter and how he plans to get UMD high enough to be reliable.
human
17 14 14 14 10 8 would be my guess
Magical aptitude, skill focus, dangerously curious
that's all a +14 by level 10, so a +24 by level 10. +27 with a circlet. Your other trait goes to +1 will saves.
It is a good time to ask for that high skilled vanilla fihter who can out DPR any barbarian, is not behind in HP and whose saving thorws are high enough,. Perhaps 20 PB, level 10, standard WBL, two traits.I'd settle at this point for the stat array for that 5 skill Fighter and how he plans to get UMD high enough to be reliable.
By spending all of his non-combat feats on Skill Focus and patching up his other weaknesses through things like Iron Will of course! And that's why Fighter is so good. If you want you can squander the one advantage you have in order to be okay-ish at other things that other classes that still fight well take for granted. Also don't forget to make sure you have your handpicked and optimized WBL thrown in.
It is a good time to ask for that high skilled vanilla fihter who can out DPR any barbarian, is not behind in HP and whose saving thorws are high enough,. Perhaps 20 PB, level 10, standard WBL, two traits.Optimized barbar?
Not possible.
Although not even a ranger competes in those areas and the paladin would lose out too.
Meh, the Paladin and Ranger both get more varied utility options in the form of spells. The fact that they can't out-AM SMASH a Barbarian in addition to all the other stuff they're capable of is a good thing.
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I think I actually have a Paladin build that can out damage the barbar... but of course only when smite is applicable (possibly double), only a few times/day, and needs to be at least lvl 13 for that even.
Looking through build threads it always my general impression that a well built Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, and Ranger can do comparable damage to the point to where each is about as good as the other when it comes to full attack damage. The real difference is the tricks they bring beyond that. Paladin has greats saves, healing, immunities, and can bypass any DR with smite; Barbarian has pounce, anti-magic, and DR; Ranger has pseudo-smite with instant enemy, skills, hide in the plain sight/evasion, favored terrain, and animal companion; Fighter has feats...
Even a commoner can kill a wizard.
The situation is crucial.
My favorite trick for wizard slaying is using a rogue with rumormonger to make the who world want the wizard dead.
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Uh, how do you do that
Careful with bait.
You make up a rumor that leads to the wizard being killed, how else? You could also charm person someone into doing the rumormongering for you, or just to spread the rumor, because your their friend there's a good chance they'll believe you to begin with and do you a favor.
Best rumor is probably something along the lines of "Slay 1 wizard" for a monetary reward. Be sure to put an exclamation mark over your head so they know you mean business.
Uh, how do you do thatCareful with bait.
You make up a rumor that leads to the wizard being killed, how else? You could also charm person someone into doing the rumormongering for you, or just to spread the rumor, because your their friend there's a good chance they'll believe you to begin with and do you a favor.
rumormonger doesn't spread rumors it spreads facts.
It doesn't take a lot to convince every town everywhere that the wizard is their enemy. For extra cheese grab a scroll of plane shift and go to a city with a deity in it. Then implant "facts" into the deity that would make it kill the wizard.
Now if the wizard knows about the rogue then the rogue has to spend some money on scrolls of mind-blank. Regardless the wizard dies or has to remain secluded on their demiplane.
Uh, how do you do thatAs a Wizard, if I had found out there was a Rogue who actually took Rumormonger, I'd assume the world was over and just end the multiverse.
So there's that.
It's in my build plan (at 20).
Unappreciated talent. Also misnamed, since it doesn't spread rumors. It spreads "facts"
We're playing Pathfinder, Marthkus. Not Persona.
Though admittedly if Rumormonger worked like it does in Innocent Sin that would be pretty awesome. But that's giving a supernatural ability to a mundane, which is of course a greater threat than Rovagug.
We're playing Pathfinder, Marthkus. Not Persona.
Though admittedly if Rumormonger worked like it does in Innocent Sin that would be pretty awesome. But that's giving a supernatural ability to a mundane, which is of course a greater threat than Rovagug.
It's kind'of what the talent says, and for an advance talent I would expect no less (since you can spread rumors without it).