[PFS] First character...any build advice?

[Takhisis]

Anyway...since I love the fluff of the Cheliax Faction, I wanted to make my first PFS character who was one that was...well...blatantly chelish. Well I played with the idea of both Hellknight Signifier Oracle and Infernal Bloodline Sorcerer, something I found changed my direction completely. To my surprise, the Egoran Infernal Binder sub-school was..PFS LEGAL! Seeing as an Egoran Infernal Binder wizard is likely the most chelish base class possible, it seemed like a perfect fit! Thus, I crafted the fluff of Caius Thrune, a very distant cousin of Queen Abogail and proud representative of Cheliax in the pathfinder society! Anyway, while his character's fluff is pretty well-defined(I even have a character voice I can do for him!) I want some advice and tips for his -crunch-. Being an infernal binder wizard, he's going to be focused on abusing the -summon monster- spells, while also having other powerful battlefield control, buff and utility options at his command. Outside of combat he is a bit of textbook with his three knowledge skills + spellcraft and can also pull some face duty via a high diplomacy skill(thanks to his traits) and the(ab)use of enchantment spells.

Anyway, since PSF caps at about 15, I've got a rough 15 level build planned out for him. However, I know it's probably not perfect so I'd like some advice on how to make it better! Anyway...the rough 15 level build is below..

Caius Thrune
Race: Human(Non-negotiable, this guy is a member of House Thrune..though he's VERY -far removed- in blood from Abagail herself.)
Class(es): Wizard/Diabolist
Faction: Cheliax
Alignment: LN(If only PFS allowed LE characters. Oh well. XD)

Starting Abilities:
Strength: 7 (Can be swapped with Wis if that would be better?)
Dexterity: 14
Constitution: 14
Intelligence: 18(16+2)
Wisdom: 9
Charisma: 14(For RP purposes, please do not tell me to dump this because I won't no matter what you say.)

All Leveling Bonuses to Int
Favored Class Bonus to HP

Traits:
Student of Philosophy
Cheliax Faction Trait for Diplomacy

Maxed Skills:
Craft(For a day job...haven't decided which but due to his personality I considering making him either a writer(craft: Books) or artist(craft: Paintings) to fit with his cultured aristocratic side or perhaps a potions brewer(Craft: Alchemy) to fit his knowledge-seeking side)
Diplomacy
Knowledge(Arcana)
Knowledge(Religion)
Knowledge(The Planes)
Perception
Spellcraft

Other Skills(Post Headband/Int increase):
Fly
???

1st: Wizard 1: Cantrips, Arcane School(Conjuration[infernal Binder]: Summoner's Charm, Assume Control, Planar Knowledge) Prohibited Schools: Evocation, Necromancy, Arcane Bond (Familiar[Compsognathus]) Bonus Feat(Wizard): Spell Focus(Conjuration), Bonus Feat(Human): Augment Summoning, Feat: Academe Graduate
2nd: Wizard 2: N/A
3rd: Wizard 3: Feat: Superior Summoning
4th: Wizard 4: N/A
5th: Wizard 5: Bonus Feat(Wizard): Persistent Spell, Feat: Spell Specialization(Summon Monster[Highest level])
6th: Wizard 6: N/A
7th: Wizard 7: Bonus Feat(Infernal Binder): Improved Familiar(Imp), Feat: Improved Initiative
8th: Wizard 8: N/A
9th: Wizard 9: Feat: Spell Penetration
10th: Diabolist 1: Imp Companion, Infernal Charisma +2, Dammed
11th: Wizard 10: Bonus Feat(Wizard): Quicken Spell, Feat: Heighten Spell
12th: Wizard 11: N/A
13th: Wizard 12: Feat: Greater Spell Penetration
14th: Wizard 13: N/A
15th: Wizard 14: Feat: Spell Perfection(Plane Shift)

Anyway...One thing I am wondering about is whether or not I should take more levels of diabolist or not take it at all. Right now I only dip the class, because I like the idea of having two imps, one of which is MUCH stronger then the other. However, I can see the logic behind either taking more or not taking any levels, so any opnions on how much...if any..diabolist to take would be great!

Anyway, if anybody has any ideas for tweaks, or general comments and build advice I'd be grateful!

[andreww]

I wouldn't bother with Heighten Spell unless you really want to work towards Preferred Spell. Persistent will do far more for you in terms of making spells stick. For your third metamagic feat I would pick up dazing spell. No SR conjuration damage spells are generally a bit weak but make them dazing and they become great against all sorts of enemies.

I am not sure I would bother with spell specialisation on a summon monster. +2 caster level is basically an extra 2 rounds of duration which at level 5 is unlikely to be an issue. I would definitely replace it with Improved Initiative. Likewise I would be uncertain how much you need greater spell penetration. Summons don't care about SR and neither do most of the strong conjuration spells.

In terms of other feats I would want to look at Greater Spell Focus. Most of your best battlefield control provides some form of save and you want to maximise the chance of them failing.

Finally in terms of stats you don't want to dump Charisma but a 10 will work just as well for you as 14. With Student of Philosophy you gain basically nothing from 14 charisma. If you don't care about Bluff then you could take Clever Wordplay instead and use your Int for all aspects of Diplomacy. A pre racial stat array of:

Str 7, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 17, Wis 10, Cha 11

Would work just as well and give you the bump at level 4. I wouldn't dump Wisdom, having a good Will save is a decent start but will saves are too critical to risk dumping it.

[My PFS Lavode De'Morcaine]

I would be very careful dropping both strength and wisdom that low. I've recently seen several people almost lose their characters to both wisdom and strength attacks. Plus will saves are becoming pretty common.

I've actually seen Craft Alchemy checks in a couple of scenarios. But for the most part they don't make much difference. Your spellcraft should be high enough to identify any potions anyway.

I don't think you can get a second familiar in PFS. But I won't swear to that.

I've never been a big fan of Heighten Spell for a wizard. You almost always have something of that level in your book that is better than just a high DC low level spell. For sorc or oracle it can be good since you might not yet have anything applicable at the higher level.

I think it looks like a pretty good build.

[Takhisis]

Cha 14 is MANDATORY for RP. This guy is meant to be somewhat charismatic, and that should be reflected in his stats. He's -too blatantly arrogant- to be an 18 cha sorc, but not uncharismatic enough to be a 10-7 cha jerk that everybody hates, either, so the cha dumb is not happening, period. Sorry, but I am role player before roll player and I like my stats to be reflective of my character's personality....so the cha is staying.

The other advice, however, is valid, and I will keep it in mind....and Greater Spell Focus(Conjuration) is actually worth it? I didn't know that, as most people said spell focus(conjuration) is a wasted feat, but looking through some spells it may just be worth it....also, I already take improved initiative, if you didn't notice. It is my 7th level feat. I gain it when I lose my +4 initiative familiar and gain my imp. However, if you think it's worth taking earlier I'll consider it, but would like to know what to use my empty feat for? Maybe another metamagic feat such as Extend spell for my summons?

Also, as for the strength/wis issue, an alternative version of this build goes down to 12 con to pump str to 8 and wis to 10. However, doing that hurts my fort save some, and makes acadame graduate practically useless. Do you think going down to 12 con to get 8 str and 12 wis would be advisable provided I take a fort-save boosting feat with my now free feat slot?

[Fruian Thistlefoot]

First you don't need the Cheliax Faction Trait for Diplomacy to be tied to that faction. Just choose the faction and your part of it permanently.

So if there is a better diplomacy Trait then I suggest picking it up. But wouldn't Cheliax love intimidate? Tho Diplomacy gets the better result to try make people friendly and helpful. Its up to you but Like I said if there is a better one out there I recommend grabbing it.

2ndly don't plan for beyond level 12. You retire your character at 12 and rarely do you use it beyond that. There are certain events you can but those come around very rarely.

As a wizard I love necromancy as a school it offers several No save F- You spells. Like enervation. Ray of Enfeeblement is 1/2 on a Passed save. It can still inflict a good bit of trouble to someone as long as you roll well for a 1st level spell. I'm also a fan of Blindness against casters. That is just my play style. But thinking about a Diabolist I can see a necro twist to there spell list. I personally would give up enchantment.

[Deadmanwalking]

I must agree that with Student of Philosophy you're not getting a lot out of Charisma. At a minimum I'd drop it to 12, which would allow for either Wis 12 or Int 19 (I'd go Wis 12). Thematically, the difference between a 12 and a 14 is minimal anyway.

Other than that, it looks pretty solid. As for additional skills, I'd probably recommend Bluff and Sense Motive. With those and Diplomacy all maxed, you can be a solid social character as well as a Wizard.

[TGMaxMaxer]

If you're going to play a caster, especially a summoner, you could stand to mix the stats a little.

Str 8 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 19(17+2) Wis 10 Cha 12.

If you take the trait for int to diplo/bluff anyways, the charisma is wasted points on character build.
I also say that dumping wis at all is dumb, but you can stand to have a 12 con.
The Str I raised to 8, you could just as well raise wis to 12. I don't like all the recent swimming/climbing scenarios I have played to have a penalty and not have it as a class skill, you can't even take 10 for a set rope out of combat with that Str and no ranks in it.
All the "but wizards can do magic" arguments aside, for the first 4-5 levels when you don't have spells to waste on mobility at mins/rounds per level casting, you will care that you can't even take 10 to climb a wall. Same for swim.
Whatever else you spend skills on, make sure you can take 10 on swim/climb/acrobatics. It will seriously matter to you until you get to the point of extended fly/overland flight.

As well, the spell spec for summons just gets you extra rounds, by 5th level either the enemies or your party will be dead by round 6, which is when your summons will vanish with the first round being full cast.

Take the feat, just put it in damage/control spell instead. That way, you are more well rounded, for PFS play mechanical abilities > flavor. Roleplay the flavor, the summoning favoritism, etc. But be damned sure you can Rollplay the things you need to finish the scenario in the time limit at APL+3 or APL+4 encounters, or it won't matter how colorful and flavorful your poor dead ex character was.

[andreww]

I consider Greater Spell Focus mandatory for battlefield control. Grease, Glitterdust, the Pit spells, Stinking Cloud, Aqueous Orb, these are the staple battlefield control spells and they all allow a save. Glitterdust and Aqueous Orb offer multiple saves. You want to do pretty much anything you can to stack the odds of a failed save in your favour.

[Takhisis]

Yeah, but the cha exsist for RP, and is needed to explain it. This guy is social...he is not some unlikeable jerk that everybody hates. He's massively intelligent, and quite scheming. His arrogance can get to people(so he's not like an 18 cha sorc or something), but he's -smart- enough to know how to watch his tongue and is good at convincing others to do what he wants. Factored in, in ability score terms, this would give him a fairly decent cha-mod. Not enough where charisma is his best attribute(see the arrogance thing and his "im'm better then you because my last name and magic" syndrome), but it should at least have a +2 mod due to his personality. He is GOOD at influencing people, and cha is a measure of that. Low cha would mean that he's shy, introverted, lacks confidence or so arrogant and/or crass that he turns people off, and he is none of those things. I have a set personality for this guy...and I'm not changing that in the name of min-maxing.

Also, good call on the Necromancy thing! I'll definitely consider that!

EDIT: Double ninja'ed. Both valid points. If the 12 con is ok, then I am fine with my stats. I will happily down my con to 12, bump strength to 8, wis to 10, leave my cha happily at 14 for the RP and call it a day. That was my -original- stat build anyway, so if the 12 con is ok then thats what I'll do. Also, good call on Greater Spell Focus in Conjuration. I'll definetly slip that in as well!

[LazarX]

Takhisis wrote:

Anyway...since I love the fluff of the Cheliax Faction, I wanted to make my first PFS character who was one that was...well...blatantly chelish.

I've yet to see any character that was "subtly" Chelish. The most memorable Chelish character out of all of the summoners and other magical types, I've ever seen was a cavalier. It's not in the class, it's all how you carry yourself.

[Moondragon Starshadow]

I'm not very smart, but if you want to play a high charisma caster, why not just make a sorc? If you want to do Cheliax RP, then do an infernal bloodline.

I dunno, seems rather obvious to me.

[TGMaxMaxer]

But, if you are arguing that Cha is mandatory for the influencing angle, you took a trait to not even use Cha for those skills.

Either you wasted build points in a stat that no longer applies to the skills you want it for, or you wasted a trait changing the modifier to skills you paid stat points for.

Either way, it's your character. You are allowed to make sub-par choices. But to justify the statline, then take abilities to not even use the stats you paid for seems .... counter-intuitive.

[Takhisis]

As stated, I am changing the stats around to str: 8, Dex: 14, Con: 12. Int: 18, Wis: 10, Cha: 14. Thats that. Those stats give me no wis penalty, minimal str penalty and the high int and midling cha I want for this guy's personality. that's the new stat layout I am going with and that is FINAL. Any further demands that I dump cha will only be ignored. Thank you very much. So lets bury the dump cha talks here, alright?

Also, why wizard over sorc? Two reasons. A) I prefer the mechanics of the wizard over the sorcerer. I generally don't like limited spells known, so yeah....and B) The RP. I want this guy to have extremely high int for RP reasons as much as I want him to have somewhat decent Cha. He, in my mind, is smarter then he is charismatic. Int in my head is his highest stat. He is not a super-charismatic guy like a sorcerer would be, but likewise, he is not a un-likeable person. In my mind, he has MIDDLING cha...not charismatic enough to have a 4+ mod, but not uncarismatic enough to have anything that is beneath +2. As stated, role play trumps roll play for me, and thats the personality I have for him. His int mod cannot fall below +3 and his cha mod can't fall below +2 for RP reasons, and that's -final-

[andreww]

Personally for PFS I would swap Con for Dex. PFS seems to have a lot of "surprise, ambush" encounters with little or no chance to avoid the surprise round making a healthy HP pool important. While you lose a point of initiative you are gaining +4 from your familiar.

[Takhisis]

Yeah...that may actually work better now that I think of it. I think I'll do that. So for now, the edited build is thus..

Starting abilites:
Strength: 8
Dextarity: 12
Constution: 14
Intelligence: 18(16+2)
Wisdom: 10
Charisma: 14

All Leveling Bonuses to Int
Favored Class Bonus to HP

Traits:
Student of Philosophy
X Diplomacy trait

Maxed Skills:
Craft
Diplomacy
Knowladge(Arcana)
Knowladge(Religion)
Knowladge(The Planes)
Peception
Spellcraft

Other Skills(Post Headband/Int increase):
Fly

1st: Wizard 1: Cantrips, Arcane School(Conjuration[infernal Binder]: Summoner's Charm, Assume Control, Planar Knowladge) Prohibted Schools: Evocation, Enchantment, Arcane Bond (Fammilar[Compsognathus]) Bonus Feat(Wizard): Spell Focus(Conjuration), Bonus Feat(Human): Augment Summoning, Feat: Acadame Graduate
2nd: Wizard 2: N/A
3rd: Wizard 3: Feat: Superior Summoning
4th: Wizard 4: N/A
5th: Wizard 5: Bonus Feat(Wizard): Persistent Spell, Feat: Greater Spell Focus(Conjuration)
6th: Wizard 6: N/A
7th: Wizard 7: Bonus Feat(Infernal Binder): Improved Familiar(Imp), Feat: Improved Initiative
8th: Wizard 8: N/A
9th: Wizard 9: Feat: Dazing Spell
10th: Diabolist 1: Imp Companion, Infernal Charisma +2, Damned
11th: Wizard 10: Bonus Feat(Wizard): Quicken Spell, Feat: Spell Penetration
12th: Wizard 11: N/A
13th: Wizard 12: Feat: ???
14th: Wizard 13: N/A
15th: Wizard 14: Spell Specialization(Plane Shift)

[Markov Spiked Chain]

PFS modules seem to have you making Knowledge(Local) rolls left and right, partially because it includes Knowledge(Humanoids). So I'd throw some points at that, especially if you want to be politically savvy.

[My PFS Lavode De'Morcaine]

I'm not trying to change your mind, just giving you a different interpretation on what you described.

Takhisis wrote:

.... This guy is social...he is not some unlikeable jerk that everybody hates. He's massively intelligent, and quite scheming. His arrogance can get to people(so he's not like an 18 cha sorc or something), but he's -smart- enough to know how to watch his tongue and is good at convincing others to do what he wants. ... Low cha would mean that he's shy, introverted, lacks confidence or so arrogant and/or crass that he turns people off, and he is none of those things. I have a set personality for this guy...and I'm not changing that in the name of min-maxing....

To me what you described is not a 14 charisma. He's not likable or natural born leader.

It is also not a 7 charisma. He isn't a shy introvert.

His charisma is average which would be 10 or 11.

I would interpret this as a good total modifier in diplomacy, bluff, and sense motive (possibly also intimidate). So I would say traits to make those class skills and/or skill focus with a fair helping of skill ranks.

I have no problem with a wizard that has a 14 charisma. I'm just saying that, to me, it doesn't represent what you described.

[Matt2VK]

What kind of spells are you planning on memorizing?

From what it looks like, you'll be casting mostly summoning and buffing spells. If you're not planning on casting a bunch of spells that require saving throws, you could drop your INT by 1 point and put that 3 character build points somewhere else.

If you do plan on casting a lot of offensive, save spells, then you want to keep your INT at 18.

[Takhisis]

Yeah, that will likely get the headband/int boost treatment, Arcana, Religion and the Planes are the most important knowladges B/C of prerequisites for Diabolist. However, I'll definitely stick some points there as my int goes up and I get -more skill points-

EDIT: Double ninja'ed. I suppose your right in regards to the cha thing, now that I think of it. Part of my insistence on the issue was a long-standing debate on whether cha is mainly about the STRENGTH of the impact you leave on people or the TYPE of impact. Under that many people's assumptions a low-cha character can never provoke strong reactions or leave a lasting impression on people due to being cripplingly MUNDANE/UNINTERESTING as appose to cripplingly UNLIKEABLE. However, that is not -the- only way to interpret low cha, and if you interpret cha being more about the type of impact one leaves rather then the strength of it, then this guy BEFORE factoring in his smarts(I.E. student of philosophy) could easily be justified as having 12-10 cha. However, if cha is defined primarily by strength of the impact rather then the type left, as I've seen argued often, then 14 is the minimum this guy should have.

I was so insistent on the cha because the -majority- I have seen in those cha debate threads are on the side that it is more strength of impact then type(though the majority also said it's a bit of both, but more about the strength) in which case this guy can leave a pretty strong impact....when he's not in control of himself..he can sometimes leave strong negative impacts. when in control of himself(I.E. using his smarts), he is good at leave strong positive impacts. However, either way, he can leave strong impacts, and according to that majority leaving a -strong impact- whether positive or negative, means good cha.

[My PFS Lavode De'Morcaine]

Takhisis wrote:

.. long-standing debate that cha determines the STRENGTH of the impact you leave on people whether positive or negative, rather then the TYPE of impact. Under that assumption, a low-cha character can never provoke strong reactions or leave a lasting impression from people due to being cripplingly MUNDANE as appose to cripplingly UNLIKEABLE....

I have heard that before. I think it is a load of something unpleasant and I haven't seen anything in the rules to support it at all. Plus it doesn't match RL experience.

If I am a likable, sociable, and influential personality (16 charisma) it is easier for me to convince people to agree with me.

If I am Joe Average (10 charisma) it is harder, but I can get training, observe, and practice (high skill ranks and skill focus) and still convince people to agree with me.

[Takhisis]

Yeah, I used to think the same way(cha was about likeability, not strength of impact on others, and that low cha meant you where an UNLIKEABLE person, not a mundane one..I.E. a low-cha character can and would leave a VERY strong impact....just a very strong NEGATIVE one.) however the fact that the majority of people in the cha-debate threads I have seen seem to think it's the other way around(that cha is less a measure of likeability and more a measure of "awesomeness" or rather the impact you leave on others) that has lead me to very much re-consider my original interpretation of the stat and never make a character whoes cha drops below 14 for the sheer purpose that my characters are never -boring- people. Unlikeable? Many times yes. Mundane? not so much...

[BigNorseWolf]

The ' you need a high charisma to make a strong impact' crowd doesn't pan out in the rules.

Chrarismo the Sorcerer asks Brunhilde out on a date. One 30 diplomacy check later they're sipping wine on the beach AND she's paying for the wine because he made the dc diplomacy check with room to spare.

Bob the average asks Brunhilde out. He gets a 11/15. Brunhilde just says no. Her opinion of bob remains "Bob who?"

Beardydwarf the unshaven asks Brunhilde out. He gets a 5 / 15. Brunhilde s opinion drops from indifferent to unfriendly and she throws a drink in his face. He's definitely made more of an impression (and if he keeps it up, Brunhilde will probably make an impression in his skull)

[Takhisis]

Yeah, that makes sense, to me, and is honestly the logic I had for so long. However, the "you need high cha to make a strong impact" crowd will then cite the intimidate skill as showing that high cha is all about strength of impact as intimidate is the eptiomy of "strong negative impact." How would you counter that often-used argument of the other side?

[TGMaxMaxer]

That's all I was trying to get across as well.

If you want to have good social skills, but you change the stat that determines your social skills to intelligence, why the insistence on high Cha.

Your Cha is only good for first impression looks at that point. The instant it comes down to skills, it's not even Cha based any more, lol.

And for the record, my stat listing was 8-14-12-19-10-12... still positive Cha.

As a wizard, you are going to have to be able to do something combat effective when out/low on spells. You need as much dex for that as you can get, in order to actually hit anything with a xbow or ranged touch spells at low levels.

Disrupt undead d6/round to zombies or skeletons when you find yourself with a party full of "flavor" characters matters a lot.

Acid splash for d3+1 or ray of frost for d3+1 (material focus items acid flask or frost flask) is almost as good damage as magic missle for the first 3 levels, if short range.

[My PFS Lavode De'Morcaine]

I know people that do not have a high impact personality, aren't socially aware, or whtever you want to call it. But they have practiced and learned to be intimidating as hell. It is easier for the guy with a stron personality who intuitively understands people and how they respond. But others can learn it with effort. It is a social skill like many others.

[BigNorseWolf]

Takhisis wrote:

Yeah, that makes sense, to me, and is honestly the logic I had for so long. However, the "you need high cha to make a strong impact" crowd will then cite the intimidate skill as showing that high cha is all about strength of impact as intimidate is the eptiomy of "strong negative impact." How would you counter that often-used argument of the other side?

Intimidate isn't the art of scaring the crap out of someone, its the art of DIRECTING that fear where you need it. If the 24 strength tiefling alchemist with fangs and a tail picks farmer brown up by his ankles , farmer brown will be living up to his name and screaming his head off. What he WON"T be doing is acting friendly towards you and giving you the information you need.

[Quijenoth]

On the Charisma front I would drop it to 13...

It saves you 2 build points allowing you to raise Wis to 12 or Str to 10.

My reasoning for this, 13 is often used as the exceptional stat requirement for feats: Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Two Weapon Fighting, all require 13 in a particular stat. So if you want to feel exceptionally charismatic without investing too much into the build go 13.

After your first few adventures see how your charisma skills are playing out in-game, do you use diplomacy, bluff or intimidate? which ever you see him using more then pick up the skill focus in that skill if you feel its warranted. You have a spare feat slot in your build anyway. Alternatively use your first or second stat increase to boost Charisma.